..Is apparently the same cycle we go through whenever a new Wave is released.

This time around it is the TIE Phantom which is causing the greatest waves - but do people remember that it was the exact same thing when the Falcon was released?

And where are we now with that one?

Y'see. It was a good ship with great pilots upon release and it still is.

Is the Falcon broken?

Data from the 2013 and 2014 regionals say otherwise.

Now - the Phantom.

This one's for you peeps out there that have a hard time accepting its place in the game.

This is how YOU crush the TIE Phantom:

1. Don't call a new unit broken until you've properly played with and against it.

2. Practice advanced formation flying, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thach_Weave This works for ANY competetive list. So you dont really need a hard counter/pilot/upgrade/ship

Otherwise, take your pick from the list of random counters below and feel free to add to it. Hopefully the naysayers will realize that it is not the end of the world.

3. Rebel Captive/R3-A2 on a high PS pilot. You will quickly see why.

13. Swarm Tactics. The more ships firing at a 2 agility phantom, the better

14. Roark Garnet. Same reason as above, plus he can pack an ion which is truly mean to a phantom (see below).

15. Ion Pulse missiles--especially with Blount. No uncloak means no shots and only a barrel roll to shift position.

14. + 1000

I am a total amateur but here we go

I agree with what your saying in some sense but their is two problems with your argument generally (not necessarily just Phantom Meta change)

1. The YT-1300 is broken for beginners like myself, it's as everyone says a training wheel and takes a lot of the edge off a lot of ships (eg Tie Phantom ;P ) Just because the top level 'meta' isn't broken doesn't mean us Newbies aren't seriously affected by it, because certain ships are 'easy wins' when playing against Newbies or frankly casual players

2. If I have to design a list around meeting a certain ship surely it is broken and a tournament isn't going to comprise of pure Tie Phantom builds so with a single list tournament you are at a disadvantage with designing lists around a small number of excellent ships.(no one is worrying about that troublesome Tie Advanced build)

I say again this isn't me saying your wrong just that I think your general argument is!

Also think the headhunter will be the greatest change to things in this wave, but hey I'm a newbie

1. The YT-1300 is broken for beginners like myself, it's as everyone says a training wheel and takes a lot of the edge off a lot of ships (eg Tie Phantom ;P ) Just because the top level 'meta' isn't broken doesn't mean us Newbies aren't seriously affected by it, because certain ships are 'easy wins' when playing against Newbies or frankly casual players

2. If I have to design a list around meeting a certain ship surely it is broken and a tournament isn't going to comprise of pure Tie Phantom builds so with a single list tournament you are at a disadvantage with designing lists around a small number of excellent ships.(no one is worrying about that troublesome Tie Advanced build)

Regarding 1.

That a ship rewards skill is by no means a bad thing imho and skilled players will beat a newbie most of the time anyway, regardless of having a Phantom in their list or not - no?

Regarding 2.

2. Practice advanced formation flying, http://en.wikipedia....iki/Thach_Weave This works for ANY competetive list. So you dont really need a hard counter/pilot/upgrade/ship

All these stories will be sorted out this weekend as the Phantom descends into regionals. To truly be considered broken we will see no less than 4 squads in each top 8.

I didn't say it had to be a vet against a newbie I was inferring two newbies playing a game one picks the Falcon the other doesn't (Can't) the guy with the Falcon wins, the point is for a newbie it gives a big advantage against other newbies

You made my point exactly because two newbies skill doesn't matter just pick the Falcon!!!

Might want to actually read my post before commenting (I gave you the respect of reading yours)

No need for baseless accusations, I did read your post - which isn't very clear. I also respect your opinion.

If you have to design your whole list to cope with 1 single ship and anything else you would field gets crushed by it... then that ship is BROKEN LOL

I didn't say it had to be a vet against a newbie I was inferring two newbies playing a game one picks the Falcon the other doesn't (Can't) the guy with the Falcon wins, the point is for a newbie it gives a big advantage against other newbies

The Phantom disqualifies itself for that though. Phantoms are the hardest ship in the current game to fly well, making them the polar opposite of the Falcon. A Phantom goes from "expensive ship with a gimmick that went down in turn 2" to "Brutal murdermachine that took out half a squadron and never got a shot fired at" depending on the skill of who's flying it. And who he's flying against.

Oh i thought this was going to be one of those "my ship literately broke" threads. the ones where folks whine to FFG in hopes of getting a NEW replacement ship when in reality a 3 second fix with a dab of super glue would be all that it takes... just figured SOMEBODY would start one of those threads with the wave 4 stuff now shipping to folks.. Got mine yesterday BTW..

Pardon me, I will share my 50 cents on the topic:

First off: I agree with the OP (knowing that he is actually a thoughtful guy) in general.

Secondly: Yes, the YT-1300 is fairly forgiving for both a n00b and the more experienced in regards to it's 360 arch. That doesn't (IMO) make it really broken in general. he thing that is (once again IMO) slightly broken is the stat and ability "issue" when running Dual Falcon lists with named pilots, but that is a different subject.

Thirdly: There simply isn't any auto win list, and even though certain/different squads (flown by experienced/clever people) will certainly dominate the meta in different areas/environments at different times then I will still/also claim that

A) even the best list needs to be flown correctly (ie. do not joust with certain ships/builds)

B) even the best list needs to adapt it's strategy depending on the opponents squad and play style

in order to win

and

C) a less competitive squad can be surprisingly lethal in the hands of an experienced peson

And I'll let Asterix sum up the OP's intentions

If you have to design your whole list to cope with 1 single ship and anything else you would field gets crushed by it... then that ship is BROKEN LOL

Funny thing, most Imperial lists still have to keep the Falcon in the back of their heads when building lists. Fielding 4 Interceptors is risky but doable against most lists, against a list with a Falcon it's suicide.

It's just that the meta has already adapted to the Falcon, while it still needs to adapt to the Phantom.

I didn't say it had to be a vet against a newbie I was inferring two newbies playing a game one picks the Falcon the other doesn't (Can't) the guy with the Falcon wins, the point is for a newbie it gives a big advantage against other newbies

The Phantom disqualifies itself for that though. Phantoms are the hardest ship in the current game to fly well, making them the polar opposite of the Falcon. A Phantom goes from "expensive ship with a gimmick that went down in turn 2" to "Brutal murdermachine that took out half a squadron and never got a shot fired at" depending on the skill of who's flying it. And who he's flying against.

I can't process this opinion.

With 4 attack dice and an Advanced Cloaking Device it seems like you could be pretty terrible and still get a ton of value out of it.

Maybe it's the hardest ship to fly flawlessly but it doesn't seem like a difficult ship to fly in general.

I didn't say it had to be a vet against a newbie I was inferring two newbies playing a game one picks the Falcon the other doesn't (Can't) the guy with the Falcon wins, the point is for a newbie it gives a big advantage against other newbies

The Phantom disqualifies itself for that though. Phantoms are the hardest ship in the current game to fly well, making them the polar opposite of the Falcon. A Phantom goes from "expensive ship with a gimmick that went down in turn 2" to "Brutal murdermachine that took out half a squadron and never got a shot fired at" depending on the skill of who's flying it. And who he's flying against.

I can't process this opinion.

With 4 attack dice and an Advanced Cloaking Device it seems like you could be pretty terrible and still get a ton of value out of it.

Maybe it's the hardest ship to fly flawlessly but it doesn't seem like a difficult ship to fly in general.

It's the double move. For most fighters you have to think a move ahead, but because the Phantom moves twice when it decloaks you have to think two moves ahead for the Phantom. With new players this can very rapidly lead to mistakes being made, like the Phantom crashing into asteroids or other ships, moving itself out of firing range or getting into firing arcs it really shouldn't (4 defence dice is nice, but the Phantom's main defence is staying out of firing arcs altogether).

My YT1300 point is you don't need skill to fly which may not be true for the Phantom, I was basing it off the OP's post!

If you have to design your whole list to cope with 1 single ship and anything else you would field gets crushed by it... then that ship is BROKEN LOL

Good thing the phantom isn't like that then isn't it? The OP listed at least one tactic that any ship can use that would neuter a large part of the phantom's arc dancing.

In a vacuum the Phantom seems to be the best ships ever. In any squad Vs squad match it will be a hard ship to kill as it darts around the map. However in the current meat there are so many turrets and YT's being played a single phantom will find it hard to sneak past all of them to have as much of an impact as most people believe it will. This is not to say the Phantom is bad, but rather the answer is prebuilt into the current meta.

Oh i thought this was going to be one of those "my ship literately broke" threads. the ones where folks whine to FFG in hopes of getting a NEW replacement ship when in reality a 3 second fix with a dab of super glue would be all that it takes... just figured SOMEBODY would start one of those threads with the wave 4 stuff now shipping to folks.. Got mine yesterday BTW..

Some personal thoughts about the tie-phantom...

Why I think the Phantom is strong? Because it can attack with 4 attack dices and also evade with 4. The only way you can have possibilities in doing damages to the tie-phantom, is shooting at range 1. In all other circumstances, the tie-phantom is always in an advantageous condition, evading with 4 dices, maybe one evade token and 1 focus token. If you shoot with "only" 3 dices, you will be able to damage the tie-phantom just with some luck...

Why I think the Phantom is too strong? Because with some good upgrades the best pilot, Whisper, can do too many actions (cloacking and target lock as free action after the attack, with advanced cloacking device and fire-control system, focus as a free action due to Whisper's ability, barrel roll or boost at "2" thanks to the decloack bonus AND a normal action).

Why I think the Phantom is too much strong? Because with the "2" boost or barrel roll bonus of the decloacking maneuver, the ship can go very far and even performing a "6" k-turn (maybe not so useful but possible!).

Why I think we will not see a lot of wonderful results in the next few tournaments? Because it is not easy to maneuver a tie-phantom. We all have to learn how far the ship is going to move, how much space the opponents are able to "cover" with their firing-arcs, how much a stress token can change the strategy of the phantom... and so on...

Why I think the tie-phantom is not unbeatable? because in this wonderful game, the dice gods does NOT assist everyone equally... and because no one is perfect in maneuvering a ship.

tie-phantom weaknesses? as someone else said, ion damage, stress, turrets and higher ps pilots...

Will someone beat the tie-phantom? certainly.

So let's defeat the tie-phantom and all others imperial toys once for all !!!!

I recommend giving this article a read:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4761

I'd also like to redirect you to a topic I started several weeks ago

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108276-the-sky-is-not-falling/#entry1114035

The game is fine.

You do not need a LIST to counter any specific ship, you need a STRATEGY! Going to any tournament, you need to have a strategy planned for all of the prevalent list archetypes in your area or overall, such as:

TIE Swarm

Han Shoots First

Other Falcon Lists

Triple Firesprays

Interceptor/Phantom Lists

XXBB Lists

Develop a strategy with your chosen list for each of these that starts as soon as your reach the table, including asteroid placement and deployment. Most of your opponents will use one of these archetypes. For others, you'll have to improvise, but you need to familiarize yourself with the strengths and weakness of every ship in the game, including rarely played ones, and know how these attributes will interact with your list. This way, even if you don't havea prepared strategy against the list you meet, it still won't surprise you and you'll be able to counter it.

You do not need a LIST to counter any specific ship, you need a STRATEGY! Going to any tournament, you need to have a strategy planned for all of the prevalent list archetypes in your area or overall, such as:

TIE Swarm

Han Shoots First

Other Falcon Lists

Triple Firesprays

Interceptor/Phantom Lists

XXBB Lists

Develop a strategy with your chosen list for each of these that starts as soon as your reach the table, including asteroid placement and deployment. Most of your opponents will use one of these archetypes. For others, you'll have to improvise, but you need to familiarize yourself with the strengths and weakness of every ship in the game, including rarely played ones, and know how these attributes will interact with your list. This way, even if you don't havea prepared strategy against the list you meet, it still won't surprise you and you'll be able to counter it.

Sorry, but as I was informed upthread, anything you plan for in advance is broken. Accordingly, we should no longer be flying TIE Fighters, X-wings, YT-1300s, Firesprays, TIE Interceptors, Phantoms, or B-wings, and we should all start petitioning FFG for fixes to those overly-powerful ships.

I'd like to add that newbs get smoked by vets all the time regardless of most builds, even the ones who who hadn't won their imdaar event in the previous month.

You do not need a LIST to counter any specific ship, you need a STRATEGY! Going to any tournament, you need to have a strategy planned for all of the prevalent list archetypes in your area or overall, such as:

TIE Swarm

Han Shoots First

Other Falcon Lists

Triple Firesprays

Interceptor/Phantom Lists

XXBB Lists

Develop a strategy with your chosen list for each of these that starts as soon as your reach the table, including asteroid placement and deployment. Most of your opponents will use one of these archetypes. For others, you'll have to improvise, but you need to familiarize yourself with the strengths and weakness of every ship in the game, including rarely played ones, and know how these attributes will interact with your list. This way, even if you don't havea prepared strategy against the list you meet, it still won't surprise you and you'll be able to counter it.

Sorry, but as I was informed upthread, anything you plan for in advance is broken. Accordingly, we should no longer be flying TIE Fighters, X-wings, YT-1300s, Firesprays, TIE Interceptors, Phantoms, or B-wings, and we should all start petitioning FFG for fixes to those overly-powerful ships.

Oh, is this how we decide what is broken? If you have to have practiced and planned how to counter it? Hmm... Well then... We should just all play quad shuttles without any upgrades.

But, really, I agree. It's ridiculous to say that you shouldn't have to have a plan for different opponents. But, one ship shouldn't (AND THERE IS SO SINGLE SHIP THAT DOES) inform your list construction. As always, you should build a strong, versatile list, and choose a strategy at the start of each game based on your opponent.

YES! You SHOULD have different strategies planned for different list archetypes. If you come to a tournament with less than 3 different plans of action for your list, you will be at an extreme disadvantage. Any competitive list can beat any other. This is not true for any strategy.

If you don't want to play competitively you can build your lists in a vacuum, but its still a game with two players who are trying to beat the other so the concept of ignoring what someone else would field really never makes sense.