The Phantom squad would not have played against its counter in either the final match, or the match before it. The #2 squad had dual Falcons, but they were both lower PS and neither had gunner. If they had both had gunner, even if they were lower PS than Whisper at PS9, it could have been a much different story.

See here for reference:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1137368

There were 2 squads in the Top 8 that could have been a pseudo-counter: a PS9 Han, and another squad with Chewie + Gunner.

I don't know what the game breakdowns were. The Imperial player would have had initiative anyway and presumably would have moved and shot first to activate ACD before Han. Against a YT-1300 with Gunner, it's not quite as clear. I haven't done all the math on this yet, but I really do think that the best counter to a Phantom aside from PS9+ is going to be Gunner. Force those 4 agility to roll evades twice in a row against your 3+ dice...

Edit: I gave the math for this earlier in the thread, and the Arizona Regionals bore this out perfectly in the final match (hopefully we'll get video), so I'll drill this point home again:

A named YT-1300 by itself is not a counter to a VI + ACD Phantom! It merely matches the Phantom's brute-force power. You need to bring a higher PS and / or Gunner.

This is not like YT-1300 vs. TIE Interceptors where their only advantage is maneuverability and is neutered by a turret. This is something new. You need to negate the advantage of their 4 defense dice by either shooting first (PS) or shooting multiple times to get increase your chances of getting through (Gunner).

/soap box

Agreed concerning gunner. I flew whisper against that Chewie gunner build (different support ships but same build and same guy flying it) the day prior in preparation... Whisper held up well and I quickly dropped the Knave and the bandit squadron pilots with my list losing Soontir with PTL while at it. With just Chewie left, I rolled massive amounts of damage his way with 5 attack dice range one, but with gunner I didn't roll the second round of evades even with the saved up focus from focusing as an action and using whispers ability. My critical error there was staying at range 1. Don't get cocky because the phantom can get one shotted or two shotted if not flown with a defensive aspect in mind. Without that gunner, it would have been a different story, but it ended with Chewie surviving with one hull remaining.

In all, Phantom is a meta changer, that doesn't mean that it's broken. He can be killed if flown sloppy, you just have to force that I your opponent or make builds like that in mind, make sure if you're a phantom get an attack off every round or get the heck out of dodge to range and recloak or don't decloak at all.

Look at cards like predator and how the phantom is exposed with a higher PS, stress, etc. FFG is moving toward a game molder not a game breaker. I think FFG is forcing players to focus their squad points on fewer, higher PS ships or suffer the punishment of 2 rerolls with predator or the phantom dancing around you all day.

After the few games I got in with it so far, I wonder if a better contender for the title of new best ship would be the Defender.

Flew against one of my friends yesterday who is relatively new to the game, who decided to take two PS1 defenders and Echo. Against Etahn and two Adv Sensor HLC Blue squadron B-Wings he managed to finish me off! I was only able to kill one of his Defenders. The second list I ran, cutting edge, did much better but I still lost a Hawk. I'm confident it can do wonders in the right hands.

The only problem with this ship is cost, which is not insignificant, but I think it might be one of the easiest ships in the game that wins back the points you put into it.

The Phantom squad would not have played against its counter in either the final match, or the match before it. The #2 squad had dual Falcons, but they were both lower PS and neither had gunner. If they had both had gunner, even if they were lower PS than Whisper at PS9, it could have been a much different story.

See here for reference:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1137368

There were 2 squads in the Top 8 that could have been a pseudo-counter: a PS9 Han, and another squad with Chewie + Gunner.

I don't know what the game breakdowns were. The Imperial player would have had initiative anyway and presumably would have moved and shot first to activate ACD before Han. Against a YT-1300 with Gunner, it's not quite as clear. I haven't done all the math on this yet, but I really do think that the best counter to a Phantom aside from PS9+ is going to be Gunner. Force those 4 agility to roll evades twice in a row against your 3+ dice...

Edit: I gave the math for this earlier in the thread, and the Arizona Regionals bore this out perfectly in the final match (hopefully we'll get video), so I'll drill this point home again:

A named YT-1300 by itself is not a counter to a VI + ACD Phantom! It merely matches the Phantom's brute-force power. You need to bring a higher PS and / or Gunner.

This is not like YT-1300 vs. TIE Interceptors where their only advantage is maneuverability and is neutered by a turret. This is something new. You need to negate the advantage of their 4 defense dice by either shooting first (PS) or shooting multiple times to get increase your chances of getting through (Gunner).

/soap box

Um, Interceptors have had 4 defense dice and good positioning forever(see stealth device). This ia no different. It isn't that huge a deal. 4 Defense dice is more than hittable without gunner. Something as simple as Target Lock and Focus makes hitting incredibly likely. Phantoms are just more expensive, more damaging, more durable, but not for the points, and more manuveverable. So again. 4 defense. Not broken. Very hittable. Learning to track a Phantoms movements is less great, but even then an Interceptor with stealth, fous and Evade is actually harder to hit than a phantom with focus and cloak, and that hasn't ben broken ever.

Well no, because an Interceptor with focus and evade would have likely been taking a PTL action to both focus and evade, which would have ruined its positioning step. And attack.

Phantoms have an advantage there, because they get an extra move during their decloak step. And with a recon specialist (or by being whisper) they can have two focus tokens ready for attack and defence. They're like Interceptors on steroids. 'course, they also pay for those steroids.

Kill Phantoms first. Echo is amazing fast and with the right build is very hard to kill. First game I killed Echo first and the game was easy enough to finish to my win. In rematch I left Echo alone and he owned me in end game because I could not predict his movement and I could not get any of my three ships in good positions to pressure him. I was battered, but by ships were still in good standing, then Echo ate them alive.

Good point.. However, I'm finding that the phantom, more then any other ship

, relies heavily on what other major threat is in the same list. The phantom is best when you can't ignore its friends.

Teamed with an upgraded BH, for example.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

So the fact that she is a wave one pilot and still dominates the tournament scene with her lower PS squad mates means nothing towards best ship? Your point is a lone Tie Fighter can't beat anything so it does not get consideration? So we want to theories the best ship and ignore results.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

So the fact that she is a wave one pilot and still dominates the tournament scene with her lower PS squad mates means nothing towards best ship? Your point is a lone Tie Fighter can't beat anything so it does not get consideration? So we want to theories the best ship and ignore results.

She is in no way as powerful as Echo.

Not even close.

She makes squads MUCH more powerful, to be sure - but she is not the individual monster that Echo is.

I just played my first game vs. the Phantom last weekend.

I had Han shoots first.

I took

Han, Decoy, Sab, C3po, Falcon

Roak, Blaster, Recon

Awing, Prototype, Ion Missle

I didn't have my ships, so I had to make use of what he had.

His list

Was Echo,Intel, Fire cont

Vader, Outmaneuver

Mithel with Steath Device

Academy, with stealh device

The game was a blast, I used decoy and Roak, to lock down Echo, I scored a lucky critcal hit, with SAB early on echo and took him down. Decoy is awesome and Roak ability helps major. Echo is nearly impossible to figure where he is going to move, I figured Decoy would help me and I could alway shoot before him if he decloaked. It worked well.

It came down to my Vader and Han. 3p0 worked great here, and I was able to take vader down.

I will say, bring someone with a turret and High Pilot skill at least a 6 is a must with echo.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

So the fact that she is a wave one pilot and still dominates the tournament scene with her lower PS squad mates means nothing towards best ship? Your point is a lone Tie Fighter can't beat anything so it does not get consideration? So we want to theories the best ship and ignore results.

She is in no way as powerful as Echo.

Not even close.

She makes squads MUCH more powerful, to be sure - but she is not the individual monster that Echo is.

And Echo is no match for a Han flown YT-1300 one on one. That should be the case as the point differences between them. Now are we looking at each ship on its base stats alone, or are we including upgrades. The Advance Cloaking Device certainly makes the Phantom better. Echo would be a bit disappointing without it. Either of the named pilots without upgrades are not very scary at all as the have to spend a turn not able to shot to get cloaked. Whisper is a little better as the trigger for the ability is a lot easier to get. The Hype on this ship is through the roof and it's sucking a lot of people in. There are hard counters to the ship. The more it becomes played the worse it will do in tournaments as people will either join the Phantom Menace or deploy counters and burn everyone who plays them.

The Phantom is a great ship Peroid. To call it the best in its first week of release is out of bounds.

I am of the opinion Whisper is a hell of a lot more reliable than Echo. Whisper with an initiative bid can reliably get a focus or three for defense every turn. Echo meanwhile lives in fear of PS9. Echo can rip apart some squads, but an umodifed 4 dice are still vulnerable.

At least Whisper can make an initiative bid...

Sweet that's what I'll call my Phantom and my tie swarm

The phantom menace

I don't know if I'd call it the best ship by I believe is my favorite.

Been finding it hard to play with anything else

Its just a lot of fun,

If you wanted to see what the best ship is, just start a poll. Let the community decide. If you agree or not, if the masses agree that the Phantom is the best, then that's the communist choice.

Vote on the ship itself, but take into account the pilots and upgrade availability.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

So the fact that she is a wave one pilot and still dominates the tournament scene with her lower PS squad mates means nothing towards best ship? Your point is a lone Tie Fighter can't beat anything so it does not get consideration? So we want to theories the best ship and ignore results.

She is in no way as powerful as Echo.

Not even close.

She makes squads MUCH more powerful, to be sure - but she is not the individual monster that Echo is.

What are you talking about? She's not as powerful as Echo?

She's more powerful than Echo because she's a huge force multiplier for 18 points. She essentially gives 6 other Ties an extra attack dice just by being present on the battlefield.

You don't need to compare the individual combat capabilities of a ship to judge how powerful it is. Unless you define powerful in a very different way than me.

39 regionals have been reported at this point to the MajorJuggler. 19 of 39 winners of regionals, just better than 50% featured Howlrunner.

I can only come to one conclusion as to what the best ships is in X-Wing. That would be the Tie Fighter! The best pilot in the game is Howlrunner!

Howlrunner is the most point efficient named pilot in the game. She is also VERY under priced and overpowered compared to similar costed pilots. She is an exception to the rule. With that being said, the Tie is not the best ship in the game. Its howls ability that makes her special, not the ship she flies.

1 tie vs anything other then a headhunter and the tie loses outright. Tie only has an advantage when you blot out the sun with their numbers.

Falcon, firespray, xwing and phantom.. To me, the "best ship" would belong to 1 of those ships. I'm talking best in terms of overall ability. Damage, dial, bulk and named pilots all while keeping cost in mind.

So the fact that she is a wave one pilot and still dominates the tournament scene with her lower PS squad mates means nothing towards best ship? Your point is a lone Tie Fighter can't beat anything so it does not get consideration? So we want to theories the best ship and ignore results.

She is in no way as powerful as Echo.

Not even close.

She makes squads MUCH more powerful, to be sure - but she is not the individual monster that Echo is.

What are you talking about? She's not as powerful as Echo?

She's more powerful than Echo because she's a huge force multiplier for 18 points. She essentially gives 6 other Ties an extra attack dice just by being present on the battlefield.

You don't need to compare the individual combat capabilities of a ship to judge how powerful it is. Unless you define powerful in a very different way than me.

I assumed we were talking about ship vs ship.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

I flew against Echo with 2 Bounty Hunters. Very interesting game, and really showed how important PS is. The bane Echo isn't just PS, but highly mobile PS. Vader was having some fun with Echo.

Howl has her issues though. She makes your entire tie swarm predictable. I tend to view backstabber as the most cost efficient ship in the game.

Howl has her issues though. She makes your entire tie swarm predictable. I tend to view backstabber as the most cost efficient ship in the game.

Right. She's certainly the core of Imperial competitiveness and value in many lists, but her value is more contingent than most on what's built up around her. Ships like Backstabber, and now Echo, can be plugged into almost any list with and their value remains relatively the same. Howlrunner makes certain lists (the more the merrier) very, very strong. She starts lists, but she doesn't fill them.

After the few games I got in with it so far, I wonder if a better contender for the title of new best ship would be the Defender.

Flew against one of my friends yesterday who is relatively new to the game, who decided to take two PS1 defenders and Echo. Against Etahn and two Adv Sensor HLC Blue squadron B-Wings he managed to finish me off! I was only able to kill one of his Defenders. The second list I ran, cutting edge, did much better but I still lost a Hawk. I'm confident it can do wonders in the right hands.

The only problem with this ship is cost, which is not insignificant, but I think it might be one of the easiest ships in the game that wins back the points you put into it.

Zero Defenders have shown up in any of the Final Cut / Top Third so far, for the 2 (partially) Reported Regionals. Given that it has the jousting efficiency of the TIE Advanced for its cost, I doubt that a white K-turn will make it the best ship. Usable in some scenarios, sure, but certainly not the best ship.

Um, Interceptors have had 4 defense dice and good positioning forever(see stealth device). This ia no different. It isn't that huge a deal. 4 Defense dice is more than hittable without gunner. Something as simple as Target Lock and Focus makes hitting incredibly likely. Phantoms are just more expensive, more damaging, more durable, but not for the points, and more manuveverable. So again. 4 defense. Not broken. Very hittable. Learning to track a Phantoms movements is less great, but even then an Interceptor with stealth, fous and Evade is actually harder to hit than a phantom with focus and cloak, and that hasn't ben broken ever.

Did you read my earlier post? Relevant summary points are quoted and are bolded below. Looking at their brute-force statline, the VI+ACD TIE Phantom is significantly more points efficient than the TIE Interceptor.

Edit: Stealth Device goes away once hit. You can't count on it for the duration of the whole game. And if you want to add in PtL for the extra evade, then you can add Recon Spec to add an extra focus for the Phantom, which is a) about the same effectiveness with 4 agility, and b) is cheaper as a proportion of total ship cost, since both upgrades are 3 points but the Phantom is worth more to begin with

As stated earlier, a VI + ACD Phantom has about the same absolute brute force as a gunnerless (and lower PS) YT-1300. This means that a 35 point VI + ACD Echo can go toe-to-toe with a 44 point Lando, and they'll be about tied in terms of absolute power. In this case, the Phantom (less points) is actually countering the YT-1300, not the other way around!

The YT-1300 NEEDS Gunner and/or a higher PS to counter the Phantom. If it has neither, the ACD Phantom will be far more points efficient, and the YT-1300 will statistically lose.

I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.

I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.

There are 2 core issues:

1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round

2) Cost efficiency

I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.

#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:

• A PS9 TIE Interceptor pays about an 87% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value.
• A PS9 TIE Phantom pays about a 30% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value (assuming ACD)

That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.

Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+

Also not included in this analysis are the options of:

• Recon Spec on Whisper for nearly 100% chance of focus with 4 defense dice
• Echo at PS8 for even better maneuverability

Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MathWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.

After the few games I got in with it so far, I wonder if a better contender for the title of new best ship would be the Defender.

Flew against one of my friends yesterday who is relatively new to the game, who decided to take two PS1 defenders and Echo. Against Etahn and two Adv Sensor HLC Blue squadron B-Wings he managed to finish me off! I was only able to kill one of his Defenders. The second list I ran, cutting edge, did much better but I still lost a Hawk. I'm confident it can do wonders in the right hands.

The only problem with this ship is cost, which is not insignificant, but I think it might be one of the easiest ships in the game that wins back the points you put into it.

Zero Defenders have shown up in any of the Final Cut / Top Third so far, for the 2 (partially) Reported Regionals. Given that it has the jousting efficiency of the TIE Advanced for its cost, I doubt that a white K-turn will make it the best ship. Usable in some scenarios, sure, but certainly not the best ship.

Um, Interceptors have had 4 defense dice and good positioning forever(see stealth device). This ia no different. It isn't that huge a deal. 4 Defense dice is more than hittable without gunner. Something as simple as Target Lock and Focus makes hitting incredibly likely. Phantoms are just more expensive, more damaging, more durable, but not for the points, and more manuveverable. So again. 4 defense. Not broken. Very hittable. Learning to track a Phantoms movements is less great, but even then an Interceptor with stealth, fous and Evade is actually harder to hit than a phantom with focus and cloak, and that hasn't ben broken ever.

Did you read my earlier post? Relevant summary points are quoted and are bolded below. Looking at their brute-force statline, the VI+ACD TIE Phantom is significantly more points efficient than the TIE Interceptor. As stated earlier, a VI + ACD Phantom has about the same absolute brute force as a gunnerless (and lower PS) YT-1300.

This means that a 35 point VI + ACD Echo can go toe-to-toe with a 44 point Lando, and they'll be about tied in terms of absolute power. In this case, the Phantom (less points) is actually countering the YT-1300, not the other way around!

The YT-1300 NEEDS Gunner and/or a higher PS to counter the Phantom. If it has neither, the ACD Phantom will be far more points efficient, and the YT-1300 will statistically lose.

I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.

I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.

There are 2 core issues:

1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round

2) Cost efficiency

I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.

#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:

• A PS9 TIE Interceptor pays about an 87% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value.
• A PS9 TIE Phantom pays about a 30% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value (assuming ACD)

That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.

Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+

Also not included in this analysis are the options of:

• Recon Spec on Whisper for nearly 100% chance of focus with 4 defense dice
• Echo at PS8 for even better maneuverability

Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MathWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.

I don't understand the resistance to the commonly accepted math, Juggler.

The numbers don't lie, it's that simple.

Numerically, the Phantom is a monster. On the board, the Phantom is a monster.

I don't understand why people are keeping their heads in the sand about it.

The math proves the argument. If nothing else - even if you call the Phantom Vs. Falcon a DEAD HEAT - the points cost gives the Phantom the win.

Never mind that you need ANOTHER 5 point upgrade to make it work.

I don't understand the resistance to the commonly accepted math, Juggler.

The numbers don't lie, it's that simple.

Numerically, the Phantom is a monster. On the board, the Phantom is a monster.

I don't understand why people are keeping their heads in the sand about it.

The math proves the argument. If nothing else - even if you call the Phantom Vs. Falcon a DEAD HEAT - the points cost gives the Phantom the win.

Never mind that you need ANOTHER 5 point upgrade to make it work.

As a disclaimer, those numbers are meta-wide averages, and are not looking at the specific match ups of Phantom vs. named YT-1300. But even if you re-ran them for this specific match up, the numbers won't change enough to change the conclusion.

After the few games I got in with it so far, I wonder if a better contender for the title of new best ship would be the Defender.

Flew against one of my friends yesterday who is relatively new to the game, who decided to take two PS1 defenders and Echo. Against Etahn and two Adv Sensor HLC Blue squadron B-Wings he managed to finish me off! I was only able to kill one of his Defenders. The second list I ran, cutting edge, did much better but I still lost a Hawk. I'm confident it can do wonders in the right hands.

The only problem with this ship is cost, which is not insignificant, but I think it might be one of the easiest ships in the game that wins back the points you put into it.

Zero Defenders have shown up in any of the Final Cut / Top Third so far, for the 2 (partially) Reported Regionals. Given that it has the jousting efficiency of the TIE Advanced for its cost, I doubt that a white K-turn will make it the best ship. Usable in some scenarios, sure, but certainly not the best ship.

Um, Interceptors have had 4 defense dice and good positioning forever(see stealth device). This ia no different. It isn't that huge a deal. 4 Defense dice is more than hittable without gunner. Something as simple as Target Lock and Focus makes hitting incredibly likely. Phantoms are just more expensive, more damaging, more durable, but not for the points, and more manuveverable. So again. 4 defense. Not broken. Very hittable. Learning to track a Phantoms movements is less great, but even then an Interceptor with stealth, fous and Evade is actually harder to hit than a phantom with focus and cloak, and that hasn't ben broken ever.

Did you read my earlier post? Relevant summary points are quoted and are bolded below. Looking at their brute-force statline, the VI+ACD TIE Phantom is significantly more points efficient than the TIE Interceptor. As stated earlier, a VI + ACD Phantom has about the same absolute brute force as a gunnerless (and lower PS) YT-1300.

This means that a 35 point VI + ACD Echo can go toe-to-toe with a 44 point Lando, and they'll be about tied in terms of absolute power. In this case, the Phantom (less points) is actually countering the YT-1300, not the other way around!

The YT-1300 NEEDS Gunner and/or a higher PS to counter the Phantom. If it has neither, the ACD Phantom will be far more points efficient, and the YT-1300 will statistically lose.

I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.

I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.

There are 2 core issues:

1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round

2) Cost efficiency

I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.

#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:

• A PS9 TIE Interceptor pays about an 87% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value.
• A PS9 TIE Phantom pays about a 30% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value (assuming ACD)

That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.

Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+

Also not included in this analysis are the options of:

• Recon Spec on Whisper for nearly 100% chance of focus with 4 defense dice
• Echo at PS8 for even better maneuverability

Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MathWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.

I don't understand the resistance to the commonly accepted math, Juggler.

The numbers don't lie, it's that simple.

Numerically, the Phantom is a monster. On the board, the Phantom is a monster.

I don't understand why people are keeping their heads in the sand about it.

The math proves the argument. If nothing else - even if you call the Phantom Vs. Falcon a DEAD HEAT - the points cost gives the Phantom the win.

Never mind that you need ANOTHER 5 point upgrade to make it work.

Cloaking does not always work. If your math counts on cloaking always working your math is wrong. You can deny the Phantom shots. You can stress the Phantom before it attacks. You can double stress a Phantom. You can Ionize a Phantom before it shoots. You can use Heavy laser Cannons.

And once that 4 HP 35-40 points dies you are doomed.

Wedge Eats Phantoms. Han eats phantoms.

Soontir Fel Eats phantoms.

PS8 pilots with Vet instincts eat phantoms.

PS7 Pilots with vet Instincts and Initiative Eat Phantoms.

Ships with Outmanuever can eat phantoms.

Splash damage hinders Phantoms.

Bombs Hinder phantoms.

Darth Vader as Crew eats Phantoms.

just because it has amazing jousting Values does not make it broken. It's a good ship, but it is not the end of the world.

We can all agree that there are lots of factors that'll harm the Phantom and turn its 35-40 pt cost into a sink hole. My only issue is, looking at the possible ways a ships value can be reduced is something that can be done with all ships. That is more an opinionated view of a ships value. What Major Juggler is doing is giving us an unopinionated value showing how the Phantom is more cost effective than other similar cost ships.

I am pretty sure he has not stated that this is the "best" ship based on game play/personal experince/meta analysis, but is instead saying, "Hey, this ship is more worthwhile pt for pt than these similarly costed ships, and you'll need this and this to equal its value".

Also, his term "Jousting Value" likely should not be applied as "this only matters if im flying straight at my opponent", but more as, if one of my opponent's ships happens to have a shot at me at the same time I have one at him, then using ACD will give me a statistically higher chance of coming out ahead and making my ship more worthwhile, including offense and defense.

Could probably use another term, but "Jousting Value" just has a nice ring to it.

Broken is a very strong word.

I just think it is severely undercosted.

Since mathematically it lines up with a Falcon, if it's cost were closer to that range, I don't think this conversation would even be happening.