I find your lack of faith disturbing..

So I had my first game against a phantom tonight, Whisper to be exact.

I was lucky enough to win the game, but only by rolling perfect attacks and my opponent having bad defensive rolls. I think most builds are gonna get killed by whisper and/or echo.

While the 4 attack dice are brutal, the decloaking move is tricky to lock down, I think the 4 defensive dice might be the worst.

I doubt they will change the ship at this point, but here's how I think they should have handled being cloaked:

If while cloaked you take at least 1 damage form an attack, you lose your cloak for that round (would also allow you to attack as a compromise, assuming the person who hits you shoots before you). This would kind of be a real world explanation of since a ship hit the phantom while cloaked, now the rest of your squad knows where he is and can shoot at it easier.

Can you imagine if the stealth device mod never went away? That's essentially what the phantoms with ACD do right now.

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

^

I was under the impression rock/paper/scissors is the perfect method for ensuring balance. Every ship needs a weakness.

How else would you have it?

^

I was under the impression rock/paper/scissors is the perfect method for ensuring balance. Every ship needs a weakness.

How else would you have it?

You may have misunderstood me, i didn't say it is wrong for ships to have a weakness, but it is wrong for lists to have glaring weakness were the match up can matter more than the player decissions. And there is where RPG method sucks at, if i am using a scissor i will have a very big advantadge against somebody with a paper. List building to fix this has it limits, once you stretch it too thin, the game revolves more about the metagame than the game itself.

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

So I had my first game against a phantom tonight, Whisper to be exact.

I was lucky enough to win the game, but only by rolling perfect attacks and my opponent having bad defensive rolls. I think most builds are gonna get killed by whisper and/or echo.

While the 4 attack dice are brutal, the decloaking move is tricky to lock down, I think the 4 defensive dice might be the worst.

I doubt they will change the ship at this point, but here's how I think they should have handled being cloaked:

If while cloaked you take at least 1 damage form an attack, you lose your cloak for that round (would also allow you to attack as a compromise, assuming the person who hits you shoots before you). This would kind of be a real world explanation of since a ship hit the phantom while cloaked, now the rest of your squad knows where he is and can shoot at it easier.

Can you imagine if the stealth device mod never went away? That's essentially what the phantoms with ACD do right now.

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

I'd rather have rock/paper/scissors than just rock.

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

I've seen a Phantom tear up a falcon on more than one occasion

Not one correctly built and played i guess.

I'd rather have rock/paper/scissors than just rock.

Do you realize this is not binary. It is not either rock (one style only) vs rock/paper/scissors.

It is about rock having the most equal chances against paper even with slight disadvantadge. Not a direct counter. It's actually about helping build diversity and fair game. But whatever.

I'd rather have rock/paper/scissors than just rock.

Do you realize this is not binary. It is not either rock (one style only) vs rock/paper/scissors.

It is about rock having the most equal chances against paper even with slight disadvantadge. Not a direct counter. It's actually about helping build diversity and fair game. But whatever.

Phantoms have Rock to their Scissors and Paper to their Scissors, but there are lists that have no hard counters(but don't win every game automatically) but hard counter other lists. By adding Scissors to the game that counter certain elements the game has become more diverse.

There aren't 3 viable list types. There are roughly a dozen basic archetypes. Not all of them have hard counters.

I played two games last night - the first against a swarm list with Echo. It was a tough but close game which I did lose but not because of the Phantom itself. What I think I love about this game is I think they have done a great job of keeping it balanced. I was able to (somewhat) predict the possible moves for Echo and try to counter it but it was just 1 ship out of 6 and I avoided focusing on it.

My opponent let me borrow it for the second game and I ran a list with a Bomber plus 3 Ties (1 being backstabber) and Echo. I had a blast flying Echo that's for sure!! Another close game which he pulled out with a Hawk, Headhunter and 2 Blue B's.

Love this game!!

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

I've seen a Phantom tear up a falcon on more than one occasion

Not one correctly built and played i guess.

A phantom has a lot of firepower and hits hard against a falcon, even if it just lasts a couple of turns. With a higher PS and ACD it's going to be tough nut to crack. There are certainly falcon builds that are worse than others for the phantom, but there are also good builds that would have trouble with them, too.

And then a falcon build comes and sweeps the phantom.

The problem for me with the phantom isn't how good it is. The problem is that the game becomes more scissors/paper/rock, something which i profoundly dislike.

I've seen a Phantom tear up a falcon on more than one occasion

Did the YT-1300 have Gunner? Without Gunner the ACD Phantom (assuming ACD always kicks in before it gets shot) is mathematically more points efficient than the YT-1300.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Well, the first match I played against my friend with it, he figured I'd have one so he developed a list that would have likely done well… or that's what he thought.

A-Wing with Homing Missiles, Airen Cracken, Chewie with upgrades that I forget.

Whisper jigged left, and then jumped into extreme range 1 of the A-wing to ice it in one shot. Black Squadron and Vessery made short work of Cracken, and Whisper and Vessery then finished off the YT in about 3-4 shots. Whisper landed about 4 damage consistently, and Vessery had Outmaneuver. the Black flew about in circles through asteroids for fun. All said and done, Vessery lost a shield, the Phantom lost 2, and the BST went untouched.

Suffice it to say that simply having a turret was not as 'hard counter' as some may have hoped.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?And did it work?

It ate Phantoms and Interceptors like a charm.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Well, the first match I played against my friend with it, he figured I'd have one so he developed a list that would have likely done well… or that's what he thought.

A-Wing with Homing Missiles, Airen Cracken, Chewie with upgrades that I forget.

Whisper jigged left, and then jumped into extreme range 1 of the A-wing to ice it in one shot. Black Squadron and Vessery made short work of Cracken, and Whisper and Vessery then finished off the YT in about 3-4 shots. Whisper landed about 4 damage consistently, and Vessery had Outmaneuver. the Black flew about in circles through asteroids for fun. All said and done, Vessery lost a shield, the Phantom lost 2, and the BST went untouched.

Suffice it to say that simply having a turret was not as 'hard counter' as some may have hoped.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

First event I played where Phantoms were legal, I built a team around Roark, Cracken and two Blues. The idea being that the blues could barrel roll to keep the Phantoms in arc, thanks to shared actions from Cracken.

There was only one guy flying Phantoms (three Sigmas). It was the only match I won.

That was the point where I really stopped worrying about the Phantom, and went back to worrying about how I was going to kill all of the builds people were using to kill Phantoms.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Well, the first match I played against my friend with it, he figured I'd have one so he developed a list that would have likely done well… or that's what he thought.

A-Wing with Homing Missiles, Airen Cracken, Chewie with upgrades that I forget.

Whisper jigged left, and then jumped into extreme range 1 of the A-wing to ice it in one shot. Black Squadron and Vessery made short work of Cracken, and Whisper and Vessery then finished off the YT in about 3-4 shots. Whisper landed about 4 damage consistently, and Vessery had Outmaneuver. the Black flew about in circles through asteroids for fun. All said and done, Vessery lost a shield, the Phantom lost 2, and the BST went untouched.

Suffice it to say that simply having a turret was not as 'hard counter' as some may have hoped.

Not sure you can count that as a Phantom counter list. It doesn't have any high PS, and has an A-Wing with a homing missile...

Meh. It's all I had.

Though you'd think Homing Missiles would be pretty okay against them, since the TL can still be used for rerolls and statistically an attack with the same number of evade dice has a chance to get through. Especially if the attacker has a focus, which was his intent with Airen. To be honest, one-shotting it was lucky because it was the best attack roll I've ever rolled: a natural 2 hits and 3 crits. Even a perfect evade would have stripped his shields.

Chewie and 4 Bandits have been doing the Phantoms in quite a bit and seems to be able to hold its own against many other archetypes.

Most hard counters tend to flounder in a tournament setting due to the variety of builds you play against.

I've all but given up on the rock/paper/scissor meta and I'm just taking the build that I enjoy the most and playing it well.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Well, the first match I played against my friend with it, he figured I'd have one so he developed a list that would have likely done well… or that's what he thought.

A-Wing with Homing Missiles, Airen Cracken, Chewie with upgrades that I forget.

Whisper jigged left, and then jumped into extreme range 1 of the A-wing to ice it in one shot. Black Squadron and Vessery made short work of Cracken, and Whisper and Vessery then finished off the YT in about 3-4 shots. Whisper landed about 4 damage consistently, and Vessery had Outmaneuver. the Black flew about in circles through asteroids for fun. All said and done, Vessery lost a shield, the Phantom lost 2, and the BST went untouched.

Suffice it to say that simply having a turret was not as 'hard counter' as some may have hoped.

Not sure you can count that as a Phantom counter list. It doesn't have any high PS, and has an A-Wing with a homing missile...

Meh. It's all I had.

Though you'd think Homing Missiles would be pretty okay against them, since the TL can still be used for rerolls and statistically an attack with the same number of evade dice has a chance to get through. Especially if the attacker has a focus, which was his intent with Airen. To be honest, one-shotting it was lucky because it was the best attack roll I've ever rolled: a natural 2 hits and 3 crits. Even a perfect evade would have stripped his shields.

I'm not saying the list is bad, it's just lacking what it takes to counter a phantom.(Stress delivery, high Pilot Skill(9+), or really high attack potential.

I've found that the best Phantom counter is actually Decoy on one ship and Vet Instincts on another.(Or Swarm tactics and Roark.) Being able to have multiple firing arcs that cover a Phantoms PS weakness creates huge issues for Phantoms. And is still helpful against other lists.

I think vet Instincts Howlrunner and Cracken swapping off PS10 is a great way to have a 21-23 point Phantom catcher.

I did this with Etahn, Cracken, and Jan. Ate the Phantom alive.

Yeah, after reading MajorJuggler's thread and having seen them in action, I'm generally far more concerned about Chewie w/ Falcon, Gunner, Threepio and four Bandits than Phantoms. That's 29 health to burn through, plus the extra damage resistance that Chewie gets from both Threepio and the Falcon title. You have one hour to kill it, while taking 3-4 Gunnered dice attacks from the Falcon and 2-3 dice attacks from the swarm. If you go for the Bandits, big deal, they're 12 points. If you go for the Falcon, the bandits will nibble you up.

Yes, the problem, is that many of the lists that can do well against those falcon, fall apart against good phantom play. Or atleast, that has been my experience thus far. But of course, wave 4 haven't been out long enough to have been figured out.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Well, the first match I played against my friend with it, he figured I'd have one so he developed a list that would have likely done well… or that's what he thought.

A-Wing with Homing Missiles, Airen Cracken, Chewie with upgrades that I forget.

Whisper jigged left, and then jumped into extreme range 1 of the A-wing to ice it in one shot. Black Squadron and Vessery made short work of Cracken, and Whisper and Vessery then finished off the YT in about 3-4 shots. Whisper landed about 4 damage consistently, and Vessery had Outmaneuver. the Black flew about in circles through asteroids for fun. All said and done, Vessery lost a shield, the Phantom lost 2, and the BST went untouched.

Suffice it to say that simply having a turret was not as 'hard counter' as some may have hoped.

Not sure you can count that as a Phantom counter list. It doesn't have any high PS, and has an A-Wing with a homing missile...

Meh. It's all I had.

Though you'd think Homing Missiles would be pretty okay against them, since the TL can still be used for rerolls and statistically an attack with the same number of evade dice has a chance to get through. Especially if the attacker has a focus, which was his intent with Airen. To be honest, one-shotting it was lucky because it was the best attack roll I've ever rolled: a natural 2 hits and 3 crits. Even a perfect evade would have stripped his shields.

Homing missile is capable of hitting phantoms, yes. But at a cost of 22 points for a ship that thereafter will not hit the Phantom it's questionable. That and once you get that target lock that Phantom will avoid you, flank you, and take you down.

I'm not saying the list is bad, it's just lacking what it takes to counter a phantom.(Stress delivery, high Pilot Skill(9+), or really high attack potential.

I've found that the best Phantom counter is actually Decoy on one ship and Vet Instincts on another.(Or Swarm tactics and Roark.) Being able to have multiple firing arcs that cover a Phantoms PS weakness creates huge issues for Phantoms. And is still helpful against other lists.

I think vet Instincts Howlrunner and Cracken swapping off PS10 is a great way to have a 21-23 point Phantom catcher.

I did this with Etahn, Cracken, and Jan. Ate the Phantom alive.

Yeah, I'd probably say VI or Decoy, not so much Roark unless the person flying him does it very well. My Interceptors and Defenders tend to kill HWKs in 2-3 shots (not turns, shots) so I can't even imagine how deadly a Phantom would be to him.

Has anyone ACTUALLY used a Phantom "counter" list while playing against a Phantom or two?

And did it work?

Yeah, Han Solo with Expert Handling turned them into Bantha Poodoo