The Phantom absolutely does need to to dodge arcs. Specifically it has to decloak every turn while firing again to recloak to upkeep your Jousting value.

Believe it or not, as awesome and fun as this is, it's not exactly easy. It's not hard to fail to get a shot, at which point the Phantom either has to recloak and work with unmodified dice, evade, or barrel roll to try to get a shot. Which means arc dodging is risky. Cloaking in and of itself is risky.

I never said it was easy, that's a tactical consideration! Just that if ACD does kick in every turn, you have one amazing ship.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

Using the stereotypical range 2 bin:

Phantom attack: 4 dice offense vs 2 dice defense.

Wedge attack: 3 dice offense vs 3 dice defense.

The Phantom is going to absolutely dominate in a straight up fight here, even with one less hull. But it should because it costs more:

Phantom cost: 32+1+4 = 37

Wedge Cost: 29

Even after you factor in cost, the Phantom may still be ahead in jousting efficiency.

Wedge is realistically shooting at 1 Defense Dice a lot of the time here Juggler. Only Whisper with VI and Initiative or an oddbal Decoy build is likely to shoot first.

Well, I'm only presenting the math behind ACD Phantom. If you want to run a ACD Phantom any other way than Whisper + VI + ACD, then you knowingly put yourself in a position to be hard-countered by PS9. That's why I said that Whisper + VI + ACD + Recon Spec is the "safest", and therefore likely to be the most consistent.

Why would you specifically rule out the one target that Wedge WILL be shooting at?

He will be shooting at PS9 ahead of Echo's VI. Please recalculate damage potential with 3 dice vs. 1 Evade. Your return damage looks accurate.

Regardless of ACD or not, my point is that PTL stacked Focus + Evade on an Interceptor is defensively superior vs. Wedge, which looks on paper to be one of the Phantom's worst enemy. Focus + Evade stacked Interceptor is a constant whereas ACD is what what-if (mainly vs. things that outspeed it), but it's not guaranteed the same way PTL is (bar stress that is).

After looking at these posts, i thing to fight the phantom, you may need a swarm, spread out to cover your buddy. Lol. Remenber, most Phantom players want that five dice attack and therefore want to get close. So maybe fly a loose swarm formation and hope for a bad defense roll

So, on the matter of Interceptors vs. Phantoms, I can't really agree in saying that the Phantom is a flat out better ship. You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic. You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

*scratches head* But... the Phantom is better at both. 4 attack gives it a higher damage potential and the decloak move gives it far more manoeuvrability to deny damage, while not requiring you to spend an action. Which means you can, essentially, do a long barrel roll and focus without taking stress.

The Interceptor holds the advantage in points, being cheaper even when the required upgrades are piled on to both and not requiring a high PS pilot as severely as the Phantom (though high PS is still favourable).

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

False.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

If you're jousting Wedge, you're not really using manoeuvrability to avoid damage, are you?

He didn´t make the calculations for echo, because as awesome as it is, it is softcountered by many PS9 ships if it can't manage to get out of arcs, and hardcountered by ships with PS9 with the mobility or the arc capacity to shoot him before (like for example, a whisper).

To be honest, i am planning to run whisper, VI, recon crew, fire control system, ACD, for this very reason.

Why would you specifically rule out the one target that Wedge WILL be shooting at?

He will be shooting at PS9 ahead of Echo's VI. Please recalculate damage potential with 3 dice vs. 1 Evade. Your return damage looks accurate.

OK.

http://www.xwingdice.com/

We're no longer looking at an ACD Phantom though. We're looking at a vanilla Phantom at 4/2/2/2, which due to Wedge is essentially 4/1/2/2.

Wedge shoots first:

Wedge: 3 attack dice + focus vs 1 defense dice + focus = 1.63

Return fire is more difficult since there are 4 possibilities.

• Phantom has about a 75% chance of still having focus for attack
• Wedge has about a 42% chance of still having focus for defense (6/8)^3. I don't have my scripts to get the exact value on me so we'll assume that number is 45%.

Phantom attacks:

33.75%: 4 attack dice + focus vs 2 defense dice + focus = 1.77

41.25%: 4 attack dice + focus vs 2 defense dice = 2.26

11.25%: 4 attack dice vs 2 defense dice + focus = 0.93

13.75%: 4 attack dice vs 2 defense dice = 1.33

Average damage: 1.82

Average shots to kill Phantom: 4/1.63 = 2.45

Average shots to kill Wedge: 5/1.82 = 2.74

That's still not bad for a 25 point PS3 ship squaring off against a PS9 Wedge.

If you want to fly Echo at PS8, then obviously you don't want anything at PS9 shooting you. It's an inherent meta game risk of running Echo: you WILL be countered by PS9. I predict that in tournament settings, Whisper will be more popular / successful simply because of the consistency of being at PS9.

Well, I tried just a tooled out Whisper vs Han + VI + Gunner and Lando + Predator + Nien Numb (I think), and I did not win. Han even flew off the board after turning into a corner and couldn't get put with a 1 turn. I did manage to put Lando down to 6 Hull, and Han at 1 shield. Han's higher PS pinged my shields off on 2 separate attacks and Lando finished off Whisper with a Range 2 shot, he rolled 3 hits, I rolled 1 focus.

As a conclusion, cant beat everything with a Phantom, but it did way better than I anticipated. Haha. My support ships coulda tore it up, even if Han didnt fly off the map.

I think I ran VI, ACD, FCS, Recon Specialist.

He didn´t make the calculations for echo, because as awesome as it is, it is softcountered by many PS9 ships if it can't manage to get out of arcs, and hardcountered by ships with PS9 with the mobility or the arc capacity to shoot him before (like for example, a whisper).

To be honest, i am planning to run whisper, VI, recon crew, fire control system, ACD, for this very reason.

whisper, VI, recon and ACD is what i've been running.. fire controls systems are nice but unnecessary in my opinion.. as whisper is likely to outright kill most small ships he hits off the bat or damages them to an inch of their life where the rest of your squad is likely to finish it off.. but if you have the extra 2 points to spend it's still useful for the larger hit point ships

recon specialist makes whisper extremely hard to push damage into with all the focus he will have.. usually having at least 2 for defense, or 3 if he didn't need to use focus in the attack

and on the rare occasion (which has happened to me a couple of times) i make a terrible roll and use focus to get 2-3 hits in only to have them all dodged by the opponent

So, on the matter of Interceptors vs. Phantoms, I can't really agree in saying that the Phantom is a flat out better ship. You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic. You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

*scratches head* But... the Phantom is better at both. 4 attack gives it a higher damage potential and the decloak move gives it far more manoeuvrability to deny damage, while not requiring you to spend an action. Which means you can, essentially, do a long barrel roll and focus without taking stress.

The Interceptor holds the advantage in points, being cheaper even when the required upgrades are piled on to both and not requiring a high PS pilot as severely as the Phantom (though high PS is still favourable).

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

False.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

If you're jousting Wedge, you're not really using manoeuvrability to avoid damage, are you?

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers.

Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

Well, I tried just a tooled out Whisper vs Han + VI + Gunner and Lando + Predator + Nien Numb (I think), and I did not win. Han even flew off the board after turning into a corner and couldn't get put with a 1 turn. I did manage to put Lando down to 6 Hull, and Han at 1 shield. Han's higher PS pinged my shields off on 2 separate attacks and Lando finished off Whisper with a Range 2 shot, he rolled 3 hits, I rolled 1 focus.

As a conclusion, cant beat everything with a Phantom, but it did way better than I anticipated. Haha. My support ships coulda tore it up, even if Han didnt fly off the map.

I think I ran VI, ACD, FCS, Recon Specialist.

Did you have initiative to shoot first? You should have at least had 4 agility dice on defense. But gunner on Han should shift the balance into his favor.

Well, I tried just a tooled out Whisper vs Han + VI + Gunner and Lando + Predator + Nien Numb (I think), and I did not win. Han even flew off the board after turning into a corner and couldn't get put with a 1 turn. I did manage to put Lando down to 6 Hull, and Han at 1 shield. Han's higher PS pinged my shields off on 2 separate attacks and Lando finished off Whisper with a Range 2 shot, he rolled 3 hits, I rolled 1 focus.

As a conclusion, cant beat everything with a Phantom, but it did way better than I anticipated. Haha. My support ships coulda tore it up, even if Han didnt fly off the map.

I think I ran VI, ACD, FCS, Recon Specialist.

Did you have initiative to shoot first? You should have at least had 4 agility dice on defense. But gunner on Han should shift the balance into his favor.

I had initiative. 42 pts vs 100 pts, duh!

He had VI on Han though...so....didnt particularly have a chance. Han with no VI with Lando vs Whisper is something ill test out next time. He can put Gunner on both ships.

@Executor

Yeah against regular ships it is useless, but i don't think the whisper has problems against regular ships but against falcons and the like, and there it is quite useful (if you can mantain distance, you can survive enough turns to make use of it) to pour extra damage into them.

Han/Gunner is absolutely NOT guaranteed to kill Echo.

Wait what?

Let's look at these numbers. First no matter what Han Shoots first here, so at range 2 the EDO

(Expected Damage Output) on the first from Han is 1.07. So if a hit goes through and then the focus on Echo is spent it jumps to EDO 1.53. So we can reasonably expect to score one or two hits per attack phase. Now with the return 4 attack Vs 1 agility the EDO is 2.37 if both are focused. That is unlikely as someone would have spent a focus at some point. So Echo focus while Han is not is EDO 2.62. The most likely is neither have a dice modifier for the return shot from Echo and the EDO is 1.64. Now this does not even count on Han's ability to reroll awful rolls to nullify the bad rolls. The shot from Han at 4 dice of a cloaked Echo is a mute point as this means Echo is not shooting back. So where does this leave us. We will give the low result for Han at EDO 1.07 per turn it takes 4 turns to kill Echo, on the high end of Echo's Attack would take 4.96 rounds to kill Han. So 5 attacks from Han would mean 3 bad rolls and two complete misses while Echo hits the averages every time.

Sure there is this "OMG" this really happened and it's not a Sure thing. However it is just as likely as Luke taking out a Tie Swarm all by himself. I would say Whisper has a shot Since it can Bid to shot before Han and turtle up Vs that onslaught from Han w/ Gunner. Echo is just plan dead to Han/Gunner.

Well, I tried just a tooled out Whisper vs Han + VI + Gunner and Lando + Predator + Nien Numb (I think), and I did not win. Han even flew off the board after turning into a corner and couldn't get put with a 1 turn. I did manage to put Lando down to 6 Hull, and Han at 1 shield. Han's higher PS pinged my shields off on 2 separate attacks and Lando finished off Whisper with a Range 2 shot, he rolled 3 hits, I rolled 1 focus.

As a conclusion, cant beat everything with a Phantom, but it did way better than I anticipated. Haha. My support ships coulda tore it up, even if Han didnt fly off the map.

I think I ran VI, ACD, FCS, Recon Specialist.

Did you have initiative to shoot first? You should have at least had 4 agility dice on defense. But gunner on Han should shift the balance into his favor.

I had initiative. 42 pts vs 100 pts, duh!

He had VI on Han though...so....didnt particularly have a chance. Han with no VI with Lando vs Whisper is something ill test out next time. He can put Gunner on both ships.

Oh, ha ha. Errr... yeah, well that's a weird matchup. I didn't realize until now that Han had VI, so, yeah, you're not going to win that fight.

Now, if you had 57 points of TIEs to throw at Han, and you keep Whisper away from Han completely and work down Lando instead, then that could be a completely different story...

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers.

Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

No, but in that case the Phantom is just plain better than the Interceptor in every way. It's faster, it can get out of arcs better, it shoots more... apart from jousting higher PS pilots, there's little the Interceptor can do that the Phantom can't do better.

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers. Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

No, but in that case the Phantom is just plain better than the Interceptor in every way. It's faster, it can get out of arcs better, it shoots more... apart from jousting higher PS pilots, there's little the Interceptor can do that the Phantom can't do better.

Take Push the limit. Clear Stress. Sometimes the shorter boost and barrel roll are better. A Push. The limit squint with stealth is harder to hit than a Phantom. Squints can take modifications. 2 of them. They fit in more builds. The list goes on as to why the Phantom doesn't completely outclass the squint.

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers. Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

No, but in that case the Phantom is just plain better than the Interceptor in every way. It's faster, it can get out of arcs better, it shoots more... apart from jousting higher PS pilots, there's little the Interceptor can do that the Phantom can't do better.

Take Push the limit. Clear Stress. Sometimes the shorter boost and barrel roll are better. A Push. The limit squint with stealth is harder to hit than a Phantom. Squints can take modifications. 2 of them. They fit in more builds. The list goes on as to why the Phantom doesn't completely outclass the squint.

Hmm, Phantoms don't need PTL to do their bigger barrel roll though, and they can still do a smaller barrel roll if the situation calls for it.

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers. Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

No, but in that case the Phantom is just plain better than the Interceptor in every way. It's faster, it can get out of arcs better, it shoots more... apart from jousting higher PS pilots, there's little the Interceptor can do that the Phantom can't do better.

Take Push the limit. Clear Stress. Sometimes the shorter boost and barrel roll are better. A Push. The limit squint with stealth is harder to hit than a Phantom. Squints can take modifications. 2 of them. They fit in more builds. The list goes on as to why the Phantom doesn't completely outclass the squint.

Hmm, Phantoms don't need PTL to do their bigger barrel roll though, and they can still do a smaller barrel roll if the situation calls for it.

Yeah, but they have to do the huge one first. And the major issue comes from the lack of booat with barrel roll. The 2 straight is nowhere near as nice as 1 forwards or 1 bank. Same goes for echoes 2 banks. Still would rather have regular boost.

The numbers he used previously to support his argument for Interceptor vs. Phantom was with jousting numbers.

Obviously avoiding damage is better. Is that a serious question?

No, but in that case the Phantom is just plain better than the Interceptor in every way. It's faster, it can get out of arcs better, it shoots more... apart from jousting higher PS pilots, there's little the Interceptor can do that the Phantom can't do better.

I just told you what the Interceptor does better.

It can stack Focus + Evade on 3 consistent Evade dice with the help of PTL. With PTL, the ship can always be on offensive and defensive with its Focus + Evade. It has Fel, Turr and Jax. It's a good deal cheaper. It can take multiple upgrades. It's as not vulnerable to PS9 pilots. Lastly, it can boost, which allows it to make finite changes in direction to get a different kind of positioning than the Phantom.

Actually, don't you think rec spec is much better defensively than PTL turtling provided you are facing multiple attacks and better if you are wanting to use the focus for offense?

PtL, Advanced Sensors, Recon, Adv Cloak. Decloak for a banked 2 barrel roll or boost. PtL for 2 focus and an evade, do a green to clear stress. Fire and recloak with at LEAST one focus, one evade, and 4 Agility with NO STRESS, even if you bumped or rolled over a rock. Do all of this with a 2h2s ship rather than a 3 hull ship and an extra point of firepower. That is 2 action maneuvers (double size template plus heading change), 3 tokens, and a cloak every turn even when it bumps.

The interceptor doesn't do anything better. But what it does do, it does cheaper. That does matter, but let's not pretend the interceptor doesn't give up significant capabilities.

Nevermind i went full retard.

Anyways, that build would be PS 7, easy meat for a lot of stuff out there, focus on 2 dice is not that good.

PtL, Advanced Sensors, Recon, Adv Cloak. Decloak for a banked 2 barrel roll or boost. PtL for 2 focus and an evade, do a green to clear stress. Fire and recloak with at LEAST one focus, one evade, and 4 Agility with NO STRESS, even if you bumped or rolled over a rock. Do all of this with a 2h2s ship rather than a 3 hull ship and an extra point of firepower. That is 2 action maneuvers (double size template plus heading change), 3 tokens, and a cloak every turn even when it bumps.

The interceptor doesn't do anything better. But what it does do, it does cheaper. That does matter, but let's not pretend the interceptor doesn't give up significant capabilities.

Do you want me to look at your 45 point ship and tremble?

I see 100 points brought here for 1 man's greed.

At the end of the day if you break it down, PS8 and PS9 Phantoms are just a gimmick. As soon as they become popular, you see more people running counters to them that nullify their abilities and the Phantom lists start losing too many games due to a rock/paper/scissors effect. And as soon as Wave V drops, they will be completely useless since you will likely see quite a few people running Rebel Captive on a Decimator, or HLC+Outrider YT2400's. Both of those ships will probably still be excellent choices against regular non Phantom lists whilst providing too much of a barrier to the high PS all or nothing Phantom builds that are popular now.

I've already put together a rebel list that holds it own against regular lists and eats Phantoms for breakfast lunch and tea. I'm now more interested in how to use some of the lower PS phantoms that might not require you to build your entire list around them.

PtL, Advanced Sensors, Recon, Adv Cloak. Decloak for a banked 2 barrel roll or boost. PtL for 2 focus and an evade, do a green to clear stress. Fire and recloak with at LEAST one focus, one evade, and 4 Agility with NO STRESS, even if you bumped or rolled over a rock. Do all of this with a 2h2s ship rather than a 3 hull ship and an extra point of firepower. That is 2 action maneuvers (double size template plus heading change), 3 tokens, and a cloak every turn even when it bumps.

The interceptor doesn't do anything better. But what it does do, it does cheaper. That does matter, but let's not pretend the interceptor doesn't give up significant capabilities.

Do you want me to look at your 45 point ship and tremble?

I see 100 points brought here for 1 man's greed.

43. And a while cost is the biggest advantage an Interceptor lords over the Phantom, a fully loaded Interceptor isn't exactly Academy Pilot either at 30 points.

Never quite understood why they god the mod upgrade when they could have benefited from the EPT upgrade so much more...

I've already put together a rebel list that holds it own against regular lists and eats Phantoms for breakfast lunch and tea. I'm now more interested in how to use some of the lower PS phantoms that might not require you to build your entire list around them.

Speaking of lower-ranked Phantoms, I wonder how a trio of shadows would fare in the current meta... Far more unlikely to get the PS advantage, but a trio of Phantoms can be in many more places on the map.

I've already put together a rebel list that holds it own against regular lists and eats Phantoms for breakfast lunch and tea. I'm now more interested in how to use some of the lower PS phantoms that might not require you to build your entire list around them.

Speaking of lower-ranked Phantoms, I wonder how a trio of shadows would fare in the current meta... Far more unlikely to get the PS advantage, but a trio of Phantoms can be in many more places on the map.

Yep, a Shadow Sqdn Pilot with Intelligence Agent and Stygium Particle Accelerator comes in at 30 points. ACD might be a better choice, but I'd possibly try a mix of both and maybe some FCS for some ships. PS5 will see you cloaked against a lot of ships plus if you run them like Interceptors and use IA to avoid the high PS pilots, your only issue should be a Falcon or something similar.

Another option is to run one with a pair of Bounty Hunters.