I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

That's why trying to draw any conclussion from one tournament is just wrong. Even tho i liked MajorJuggler post because of the time and effort he put into it, i still think it is just too soon, specially if you are going to mention one regional results as a proof to back up your argument.

I so agree with this. The data for either side of the argument is needed. By the end of Regionals we will have a clear picture of where all the ships stand in the meta. Having a good understanding of where the meta is also will tell us what build of the Phantom can contend for the honor of Best Ship.

I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

That's why trying to draw any conclussion from one tournament is just wrong. Even tho i liked MajorJuggler post because of the time and effort he put into it, i still think it is just too soon, specially if you are going to mention one regional results as a proof to back up your argument.

I so agree with this. The data for either side of the argument is needed. By the end of Regionals we will have a clear picture of where all the ships stand in the meta. Having a good understanding of where the meta is also will tell us what build of the Phantom can contend for the honor of Best Ship.

I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

That's why trying to draw any conclussion from one tournament is just wrong. Even tho i liked MajorJuggler post because of the time and effort he put into it, i still think it is just too soon, specially if you are going to mention one regional results as a proof to back up your argument.

I so agree with this. The data for either side of the argument is needed. By the end of Regionals we will have a clear picture of where all the ships stand in the meta. Having a good understanding of where the meta is also will tell us what build of the Phantom can contend for the honor of Best Ship.

That and there were sooooo many rebel lists in the top 16. Yes, the Phantom won, but the rebels definitley dominated that tournament despite Phantoms.(I'd like to know how many phantom lists there were total.)

I believe we have gotten that answer:

To answer the regionals question:

My guess 4? I saw for sure 3, two one phantom builds and and one two phantom builds. So for SURE 3 and I would say no more than 5. So <10%.

Manonawire could probably quote exactly probably as he was TO (thanks again BTW you did an awesome job and deserve a public shoutout).

So between 3-5 at 55 squads that is not a huge number of squads that feature the Phantom. Much less then I would have expected because of the hype. So 5% to 9% of the field was Phantom squads. 29% of the field made top 16 and if there were only 3 phantom builds it does speak to the power of the Phantom.

I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

That's why trying to draw any conclussion from one tournament is just wrong. Even tho i liked MajorJuggler post because of the time and effort he put into it, i still think it is just too soon, specially if you are going to mention one regional results as a proof to back up your argument.

I'll agree with that. The breakdown was meant as a likely explanation of what happened, at a strategic level anyway, at one Regional. We need more data and time until the wave 4 meta stabilizes until we can make more general statements about how good the Phantom is. Right now Chewbacca alone is accounting for 21% of all points spent (weighted average), which is not normal. The sample size is too small.

I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it.

I'm very confident that higher PS and/or gunner should effectively counter a VI + ACD Phantom. Alternatively you could use double stress or Ions. There could be a couple other as well that we haven't thought of or seen yet. What's still not clear is what that means for the Phantom's overall effectiveness. We need more time to tell.

That and there were sooooo many rebel lists in the top 16. Yes, the Phantom won, but the rebels definitley dominated that tournament despite Phantoms.(I'd like to know how many phantom lists there were total.)

I believe we have gotten that answer:

To answer the regionals question:

My guess 4? I saw for sure 3, two one phantom builds and and one two phantom builds. So for SURE 3 and I would say no more than 5. So <10%.

Manonawire could probably quote exactly probably as he was TO (thanks again BTW you did an awesome job and deserve a public shoutout).

So between 3-5 at 55 squads that is not a huge number of squads that feature the Phantom. Much less then I would have expected because of the hype. So 5% to 9% of the field was Phantom squads. 29% of the field made top 16 and if there were only 3 phantom builds it does speak to the power of the Phantom.

@Aminar The argument about sample size goes both ways. Many rebels at that tournament played with lists they are comfortable with, and maybe a few changes for phantoms, but overall they weren't much different.

On the other side, we had been told that there weren't many tie swarms, and it could perfectly be with many imperials trying out the new toys, which are quite different and must be practiced with, than the toys rebels got, which are more generic.

That's the thing, we could be finding many explanations for what happened, but at the end, the most important thing is the big picture. I know it is fun to speculate and many people probably wanted to see how wave 4 resulted on regionals, but then again, wait until it stabilizes, that's the fun of possible meta changes, figuring it out.

@Aminar The argument about sample size goes both ways. Many rebels at that tournament played with lists they are comfortable with, and maybe a few changes for phantoms, but overall they weren't much different.

On the other side, we had been told that there weren't many tie swarms, and it could perfectly be with many imperials trying out the new toys, which are quite different and must be practiced with, than the toys rebels got, which are more generic.

That's the thing, we could be finding many explanations for what happened, but at the end, the most important thing is the big picture. I know it is fun to speculate and many people probably wanted to see how wave 4 resulted on regionals, but then again, wait until it stabilizes, that's the fun of possible meta changes, figuring it out.

@Aminar The argument about sample size goes both ways. Many rebels at that tournament played with lists they are comfortable with, and maybe a few changes for phantoms, but overall they weren't much different.

On the other side, we had been told that there weren't many tie swarms, and it could perfectly be with many imperials trying out the new toys, which are quite different and must be practiced with, than the toys rebels got, which are more generic.

That's the thing, we could be finding many explanations for what happened, but at the end, the most important thing is the big picture. I know it is fun to speculate and many people probably wanted to see how wave 4 resulted on regionals, but then again, wait until it stabilizes, that's the fun of possible meta changes, figuring it out.

I know. We'll see where it goes. I'm just worried that my Falcons Everywhere prediction is going to happen...

I suggest a new strategy. Let the wookie win.

Outmaneuver is a wonderful thing. Suck it Threepio.

How's this for some phantom control:

'Han Really shoots first'

Han

VI

Ion pulse missiles

Tactician

Gunner

Munitions fail safe

Rookie Pilot x2

100 points

How's this for some phantom control:

'Han Really shoots first'

Han

VI

Ion pulse missiles

Tactician

Gunner

Munitions fail safe

Rookie Pilot x2

100 points

I just think it would be funny to drop two ions and two stresses on old whisper (or echo)...

Not saying it would hold up against anything else, but it could be fun. Using that two stresses technique or ions could work against any major hitter (Howlrunner etc).

I just think it would be funny to drop two ions and two stresses on old whisper (or echo)...

Not saying it would hold up against anything else, but it could be fun. Using that two stresses technique or ions could work against any major hitter (Howlrunner etc).

That said, Navigator on him could offer some fun. Hanigator the Phantom killer.

"Let the wookie win"

Chewbacca + Swarm Tactics + Luke Skywalker + Millennium Falcon (52)

Roark Garnet + Ion Cannon Turret (24)

2x Bandit Squadron Pilot (24)

1. Roark tosses PS12 to Chewie. Chewie takes the most difficult shots, since he has gunner. Preferably he is shooting at a 2 agility TIE Phantom, and peeling away its defensive tokens.
2. Chewie tosses PS12 back to Roark. Roark now fires his Ion Cannon Turret at the Phantom, who hopefully has no tokens remaining after Chewbacca's barrage.
3. Bandits clean up.

If the TIE Phantom is within range 2 of Roark, then it should have 2+ damage on it, plus an Ion Token preventing decloack the following turn.

It's not a terrible squad for typical play, but the synergy breaks down a little once Roark goes down.

Edit: you could also downgrade Luke and the Falcon title for C3-P0 instead:

Chewbacca + Swarm Tactics + C3-P0 + Gunner (52)

"Let the wookie win"

Chewbacca + Swarm Tactics + Luke Skywalker + Millennium Falcon (52)

Roark Garnet + Ion Cannon Turret (24)

2x Bandit Squadron Pilot (24)

• Roark tosses PS12 to Chewie. Chewie takes the most difficult shots, since he has gunner. Preferably he is shooting at a 2 agility TIE Phantom, and peeling away its defensive tokens.
• Chewie tosses PS12 back to Roark. Roark now fires his Ion Cannon Turret at the Phantom, who hopefully has no tokens remaining after Chewbacca's barrage.
• Bandits clean up.

If the TIE Phantom is within range 2 of Roark, then it should have 2+ damage on it, plus an Ion Token preventing decloack the following turn.

It's not a terrible squad for typical play, but the synergy breaks down a little once Roark goes down.

Edit: you could also downgrade Luke and the Falcon title for C3-P0 instead:

Chewbacca + Swarm Tactics + C3-P0 + Gunner (52)

How do you feel That squad matches up with the rest of the Meta? Or do you feel it has to be a heavy Phantom Meta for the "Let the Wookie Win" build to be successful?

How do you feel That squad matches up with the rest of the Meta? Or do you feel it has to be a heavy Phantom Meta for the "Let the Wookie Win" build to be successful?

I feel it's still a solid build. None of the cards are situational, they're all good on their own, and it has great durability and board control.

I believe we have gotten that answer:

To answer the regionals question:

My guess 4? I saw for sure 3, two one phantom builds and and one two phantom builds. So for SURE 3 and I would say no more than 5. So <10%.

Manonawire could probably quote exactly probably as he was TO (thanks again BTW you did an awesome job and deserve a public shoutout).

So between 3-5 at 55 squads that is not a huge number of squads that feature the Phantom. Much less then I would have expected because of the hype. So 5% to 9% of the field was Phantom squads. 29% of the field made top 16 and if there were only 3 phantom builds it does speak to the power of the Phantom.

All the hype is just that. You're flying against a ship with the same durability as an interceptor with sheild and a stealth device (stealth goes away at first bit but phantom native green is 2 so not even but closer than people like to admit). It has a bigger gun and some extra tricks but sometimes it will just roll blanks. Sometimes it will just roll almost all blanks and get an extra shot off (but likely forgoes at least one shot a game). It handles different than an interceptor and you have to handle it differently than you would an interceptor but a lot of the time it is just a touch tougher than the old interceptors and sometimes it's a z95 with a big gun that you paid 4x as much for...and that's to say nothing of the hard counters to it.

When they're on it's going to be a really rough day (much like vs. interceptors)... one wrong move or one bad dice roll and you've lost over 1/3 of your squad now.

As to the choice of init or not when phantom flying? Choose to shoot first all the time every time...even before Han. Especially before Han.

It can be somewhat annoying. I guessed wrong on where my opponent's Echo was going, and Vader had to spend a few turns to circle back around (luckily, there was a Firespray's blind spot he could hang in). But, I'm happy if people overreact and pack Falcons. Outmaneuver is a beautiful thing.

Assuming both ships have focus the Phantom takes 3.3 shots to kill from a 3 attack with focus ship, while it takes 8 or so when it is cloaked. It's way more than double durability.

That said, that makes the hard counter far far more clear. And once that focus is stripped the 4 defense dice are far less effective.

The counter comes in that a Phantom cannot afford to close with a Falcon due to what 4 attack dice at range 1 can do to it. That leaves it at further ranges, where it is in more firing arcs, and can't manage to avoid them nearly so much.

I would guess Bobba fett VI + navigator + Engine is great to deal with them, specially with HLC, since it puts it down to 2 agility even at range 3. Other thing is how viable that kind of build would be against other stuff. It should take down a phantom in 2 rounds of shooting if he can TL or focus every turn. If you also have a howl close by, he just destroys them, and has decent chances of one shotting. But i haven't been able to try out on the table, and as i said before, but probably not worth it as a take all comers.

I did find Engine upgrade more inhibitory than helpful on the fettigator. It kept taking me from range 1 shots all the way out of range. If you're using the rear arc it isn't so helpful, and the rear arc is really easy to aim with.

Fett could shine. You have to fly him very well to reclaim his points. I have a buddy who runs him all the time and when he's on, it's crazy good but one wrong move and you're very expensive Firespray gets dinged up a lot.

All these suggestions are what I love about Meta-Gaming. Sure you can toss together a Phantom Killer but does it just flat out lose to everything else. At that point it's worthless.

Assuming both ships have focus the Phantom takes 3.3 shots to kill from a 3 attack with focus ship, while it takes 8 or so when it is cloaked. It's way more than double durability.

That said, that makes the hard counter far far more clear. And once that focus is stripped the 4 defense dice are far less effective.

The counter comes in that a Phantom cannot afford to close with a Falcon due to what 4 attack dice at range 1 can do to it. That leaves it at further ranges, where it is in more firing arcs, and can't manage to avoid them nearly so much.

On a specific match up like that - agreed: the extra durability can more than double. Conversely, at range 1 the increase should be less than double. It depends on a lot of factors, especially how often the defender has focus. I assumed 50%, to use the same weighted averages as I was using on the rest of my Lanchester's MathWing thread, to be consistent.