Assuming both ships have focus the Phantom takes 3.3 shots to kill from a 3 attack with focus ship, while it takes 8 or so when it is cloaked. It's way more than double durability.

That said, that makes the hard counter far far more clear. And once that focus is stripped the 4 defense dice are far less effective.

The counter comes in that a Phantom cannot afford to close with a Falcon due to what 4 attack dice at range 1 can do to it. That leaves it at further ranges, where it is in more firing arcs, and can't manage to avoid them nearly so much.

On a specific match up like that - agreed: the extra durability can more than double. Conversely, at range 1 the increase should be less than double. It depends on a lot of factors, especially how often the defender has focus. I assumed 50%, to use the same weighted averages as I was using on the rest of my Lanchester's MathWing thread, to be consistent.

It's reasonable to say in that situation the Phantom will Always have Focus(unless they evade which increases the durability further.)

Phantoms and focus are a little different though too. Especially given we're looking at high PS shots specifically while looking at shooting a Phantom before it recloaks from Advanced Cloaking Device against a Falcon.

It's reasonable to say in that situation the Phantom will Always have Focus(unless they evade which increases the durability further.)

I'll rerun the numbers soon with a 100% chance of focus on defense, both at 2 defense dice and 4 defense dice. This would simulate Whisper + Recon Specialist, which I think is the most conservative (safest, most counter-proof) VI + ACD build.

Phantoms and focus are a little different though too. Especially given we're looking at high PS shots specifically while looking at shooting a Phantom before it recloaks from Advanced Cloaking Device against a Falcon.

It's reasonable to say in that situation the Phantom will Always have Focus(unless they evade which increases the durability further.)

I'll rerun the numbers soon with a 100% chance of focus on defense, both at 2 defense dice and 4 defense dice. This would simulate Whisper + Recon Specialist, which I think is the most conservative (safest, most counter-proof) VI + ACD build.

I can't wait to experiment with some of the generic Phantoms. I think the Stygium Particle Accelerator has some potential, especially with Advanced Sensors.

I can't wait to experiment with some of the generic Phantoms. I think the Stygium Particle Accelerator has some potential, especially with Advanced Sensors.

That's exactly how I ran my first non named phantom. It's a bit fiddlier but certainly interesting. Adv Sen + Stygium means knowing you'll get you crazy maneuver shenanigans and an evade for your troubles. Flys differently though.

All these suggestions are what I love about Meta-Gaming. Sure you can toss together a Phantom Killer but does it just flat out lose to everything else. At that point it's worthless.

Hence the arguments about the Phantom - thank you for summing it up SO perfectly.

I did just run the numbers...

For a single range bin and attack type, sure. I have been curious how well the extra focus extends across a wide range of range bins and attack types though.

All these suggestions are what I love about Meta-Gaming. Sure you can toss together a Phantom Killer but does it just flat out lose to everything else. At that point it's worthless.

Hence the arguments about the Phantom - thank you for summing it up SO perfectly.

I did just run the numbers...

For a single range bin and attack type, sure. I have been curious how well the extra focus extends across a wide range of range bins and attack types though.

I must admit, I'm still not fully convinced on the benefits of the Stygium over the ACD. The evade sounds nice, but it also means cutting your manueverability and firepower in half.

Range 3 Uncloaked is 5.333 shots.

Range 3 cloaked is 12.5 It's slightly less of an increase than range 2, but still huge.

Range 1 is 2.1 hits uncloaked

Range 1 cloaked is 3.57. That favors the falcon. Cloak grants the greatest durability increase at range 2, but still should be at range 3 against a falcon for best results.

So, on the matter of Interceptors vs. Phantoms, I can't really agree in saying that the Phantom is a flat out better ship. You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic. You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

Analogies aside, I do not think the Phantom is the dominant ship in the meta. What it is, is the most impactful ship that has been introduced in the last couple of waves. This includes Rebel Transport and Imperial Aces. Please do not confuse impact with severity, as I think the Phantom is perfectly fine ship when played correctly. When played incorrectly or placed into a scenario where you're dealing with possible counters (e.g. Han Solo, Gunner, Marks), the ship itself will not seem that great. For that reason, I think the ship is fine for the time being as more data rolls in. I do think we'll see more Phantoms as well because there'll more play-time, more exposure (thanks to this thread lmao), and the fact that people will play the Phantom more over their other tried and true squads.

What the Phantom does do is really target specific things in the meta, and targets them well. It does very well vs. non-elite lists because that's practically handing the Phantom 2 additional evade dice per phase (talking about Echo and Whisper specifically). For the purposes talking strictly about hull points in the enemy force, the longer ships are around, the higher the chances the Phantom will take damage due to the randomness of dice. This is why Whisper and Echo seem to excel at combating lower PS, limited ships aka Red Daggers and similar fleet construction.

So please gents, look at this as a matter of impact vs. severity. Impactful, absolutely. Imbalanced? Doubtful.

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

False.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

What the Phantom does do is really target specific things in the meta, and targets them well. It does very well vs. non-elite lists because that's practically handing the Phantom 2 additional evade dice per phase (talking about Echo and Whisper specifically). For the purposes talking strictly about hull points in the enemy force, the longer ships are around, the higher the chances the Phantom will take damage due to the randomness of dice. This is why Whisper and Echo seem to excel at combating lower PS, limited ships aka Red Daggers and similar fleet construction.

This is the problem.

The math from Juggler as well as people with lots of playtime sharing their experience seems to go directly against the theory that the Phantom "targets specific things in the meta."

It was DESIGNED to take out low PS - I will give you that.

However, it can (by accident or design) nearly stand toe to toe with ships that are costed a lot higher. A Han/Gunner is not necessarily going to hard counter the Phantom. I have played several games with only Echo vs Han/Gunner for the sake of science.

Han/Gunner is absolutely NOT guaranteed to kill Echo. Neither is any other small base ship in the game. Quite the opposite. On a regular basis, Echo will wipe most other ships, which means you have to build your list around the fact that your opponent MIGHT bring a ship capable of wiping your entire list, or severely throwing a wrench in it, anyways.

Saying "Well just get a stress droid and a turret." Do you not see the inherent flaw in this? I have to bring two ships to even THINK about effectively dealing with one of yours, who cost less than the PS equivalent ship I brought, let alone the cost with his teammate.

I think a more appropriate way to phrase this would be "the Phantom targets the meta."

It excels at killing ANYTHING the current non-epic game has to offer. (Possibly Epic as well, haven't played one there yet so I can't comment).

I have killed as and been killed by the Phantom in well over 50 games now, most of which were specifically played to address learning the Phantom from both sides of the board.

The simple unadulterated truth is that the Phantom (Echo,VI,ACD) is insanely powerful. If you aren't flying turrets, your piloting has to be completely perfect each and every time. One screw up that allows the Phantom to blast 5 dice into you broadside and not take any return fire, and you can forget it.

Unless the dice specifically hinder the Phantom, it has a tremendous advantage.

4 Greens is not unkillable at range 3. We've all killed Soontir through a Stealth Device.

However, Soontir cannot come close to the raw movement possibilities of Echo. Look at the FFG article if you don't believe me. I think it was said there that he has up to 90 final rest positions on the board.

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

Believe it or not, as awesome and fun as this is, it's not exactly easy. It's not hard to fail to get a shot, at which point the Phantom either has to recloak and work with unmodified dice, evade, or barrel roll to try to get a shot. Which means arc dodging is risky. Cloaking in and of itself is risky.

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

The Phantom absolutely does need to to dodge arcs. Specifically it has to decloak every turn while firing again to recloak to upkeep your Jousting value.

Believe it or not, as awesome and fun as this is, it's not exactly easy. It's not hard to fail to get a shot, at which point the Phantom either has to recloak and work with unmodified dice, evade, or barrel roll to try to get a shot. Which means arc dodging is risky. Cloaking in and of itself is risky.

I've seen this go both ways.

I have done some amazing piloting with Echo, easily tagging into Range 1 at will.

I've also had games where the movements seemed foreign to me and I couldn't ever get him lined up.

There is a lot of truth in the statement that Echo is not an automatic win. There is also a lot of truth in the statement than an experienced Echo pilot is a freaking nightmare.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

Using the stereotypical range 2 bin:

Phantom attack: 4 dice offense vs 2 dice defense.

Wedge attack: 3 dice offense vs 3 dice defense.

[edit]

Lets just assume they both have focus on attack. Expected damage:

Phantom: 4 attack dice + focus vs 2 defense dice + focus = 1.77

Wedge: 3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice + focus = 0.64

If Wedge has to spend his focus on defense first (about a 40% chance), then his damage is:

3 attack dice + focus vs 3 defense dice + focus = 0.30

Damage ratio: 1.77 / (0.64*0.6 + 0.3*0.4) = 1.77 / 0.5 = 3.54

Whisper will out-damage Wedge by a factor of 3.54 to 1.

Multiply by 4/5 to account for Wedge's extra hull and it's still around 2.8:1.

Any questions class?

Phantom cost: 32+1+4 = 37

Wedge Cost: 29

All else being equal, jousting value is proportional to the square root of attack times durability. Whisper's attack times durability in this heads-up range 2 scenario is 2.8x Wedge's, so Whisper's equivalent "value" relative to Wedge is: 29*2.8^0.5 = 48

Whisper costs 37. So even after you factor in cost, the Phantom is way ahead in jousting efficiency. I'll take that joust as Whisper all day long. Granted this is only looking at range bin 1, but with numbers THIS far in favor of the ACD PHantom, it won't matter.

Now if Wedge has VI, then it's another story entirely.

You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic.

You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

What do you mean by the first sentence?

Yes, both want to dodge arcs. But the ACD TIE Phantom is so powerful that it doesn't need to. There's your difference.

Except it CAN dodge arcs really well, and arguably much better with its free cloak / decloak mechanic than an Interceptor with Boost / Barrel Roll + PtL.

The Phantom absolutely does need to to dodge arcs. Specifically it has to decloak every turn while firing again to recloak to upkeep your Jousting value.

Believe it or not, as awesome and fun as this is, it's not exactly easy. It's not hard to fail to get a shot, at which point the Phantom either has to recloak and work with unmodified dice, evade, or barrel roll to try to get a shot. Which means arc dodging is risky. Cloaking in and of itself is risky.

I've seen this go both ways.

I have done some amazing piloting with Echo, easily tagging into Range 1 at will.

I've also had games where the movements seemed foreign to me and I couldn't ever get him lined up.

There is a lot of truth in the statement that Echo is not an automatic win. There is also a lot of truth in the statement than an experienced Echo pilot is a freaking nightmare.

It's easy to fall into the trap of seeing it as broken. It's much harder to see it reliably perform at peak efficiency for anything like an extended game.

And somebody referenced Epic. The Jam action 100% murders Phantoms. So do the number of ships on the board.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

Using the stereotypical range 2 bin:

Phantom attack: 4 dice offense vs 2 dice defense.

Wedge attack: 3 dice offense vs 3 dice defense.

The Phantom is going to absolutely dominate in a straight up fight here, even with one less hull. But it should because it costs more:

Phantom cost: 32+1+4 = 37

Wedge Cost: 29

Even after you factor in cost, the Phantom may still be ahead in jousting efficiency.

The Phantom absolutely does need to to dodge arcs. Specifically it has to decloak every turn while firing again to recloak to upkeep your Jousting value.

Believe it or not, as awesome and fun as this is, it's not exactly easy. It's not hard to fail to get a shot, at which point the Phantom either has to recloak and work with unmodified dice, evade, or barrel roll to try to get a shot. Which means arc dodging is risky. Cloaking in and of itself is risky.

I never said it was easy, that's a tactical consideration! Just that if ACD does kick in every turn, you have one amazing ship.

You wouldn't joust Wedge with a Phantom with ACD. I would with an Interceptor stacking Evade + Focus from PTL + SD/HU/Shields.

Using the stereotypical range 2 bin:

Phantom attack: 4 dice offense vs 2 dice defense.

Wedge attack: 3 dice offense vs 3 dice defense.

The Phantom is going to absolutely dominate in a straight up fight here, even with one less hull. But it should because it costs more:

Phantom cost: 32+1+4 = 37

Wedge Cost: 29

Even after you factor in cost, the Phantom may still be ahead in jousting efficiency.

Wedge is realistically shooting at 1 Defense Dice a lot of the time here Juggler. Only Whisper with VI and Initiative or an oddbal Decoy build is likely to shoot first.

Well, I'm only presenting the math behind ACD Phantom. If you want to run a ACD Phantom any other way than Whisper + VI + ACD, then you knowingly put yourself in a position to be hard-countered by PS9. That's why I said that Whisper + VI + ACD + Recon Spec is the "safest", and therefore likely to be the most consistent.

How's this for some phantom control:

'Han Really shoots first'

Han

VI

Ion pulse missiles

Tactician

Gunner

Munitions fail safe

Rookie Pilot x2

100 points

i think that list is a little bit overkill to fight the phantoms

ion pulse missiles and munitions fail safe are definitely not needed.. tactician is great all around and i think it has a lot of potential for any ship that can take crew and will work not only on phantoms well but just about any list you face off against

the VI is more than enough to to hard counter phantoms and guarantee that Han is always shooting first

So, on the matter of Interceptors vs. Phantoms, I can't really agree in saying that the Phantom is a flat out better ship. You're not really looking at the math over jousting statistics, it's just unrealistic. You bring the Phantom and Interceptor for one key goal on the battlefield: To do damage while using maneuverability to deny damage. It's the difference between a rapier and an axe in that respect.

except that the phantom brings both the finesse of the rapier and the brutal pain of a very sharp axe at the same time

where as the interceptor is more of a rapier only kind of ship

The Phantom has the most potential out of any ship to tear an opponent's list apart. Its also the least user-friendly ship in the game, and the one most likely to do nothing (getting boxed in by asteroids, unable to de cloak, etc).

I proxied and flew Echo many times now too. Vassal is a hell of a tool!

Yes, Echo with VI and ACD is very powerful, it's also 35 points, which is more than a third of your force and succeptible to bad dice in the same way Soontir is with SD. Yes, Echo can move a billion different ways more than Soontir, but it also doesn't have the offensive/defensive package rolled into the same package, especially off K-Turns. Yes, we can tag onto Recon Specialist onto the price, but it still won't have the guaranteed 4 dice on evade before of how ACD and Cloak work.

Regardless, I disagree that its a balance problem right now. It's just a more expensive Interceptor but it has its plus and minuses. It's not susceptible to the same weaknesses as the Interceptor with PTL, but it shares a lot of similarities. I've had Soontir Fel do work himself vs. other armies as well, but I can't say that he walks over 100 points himself, not against a competent player across the table. To say otherwise raises would raise concern over your competition (as been said before in this thread).

Maybe asteroid placement is the next countermeasure.... three in a row two rows at 1/3rds of the board?