Sigma is PS 3 bro.

The only real loss is it has -1 hull. In return it gets a cloak and the ability to mount either FCS or AdvS. Good deal imo.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

This is exactly it. If you don't bring gunner / higher PS to the table, the Phantom will counter just about everything. It looks like this is what happened in the Arizona Regionals.

Moral of the story: we're going to go back to gunner + YT-1300 as a mainstay, and we will probably see some super PS builds as well. Once that happens, Phantom usage should regulate.

Can you elaborate on what happened on the Arizona Regionals ? Maybe you have some information that i don't. Yes, a whisper won the tournament, but 13/16 top spots were rebel players.

I hate having to deal with Biggs. And Biggs that can cloak seems like it will bring me much joy. Plus you know if being defensive is a problem you could always slap SPG on it min/max your defense.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

This is exactly it. If you don't bring gunner / higher PS to the table, the Phantom will counter just about everything. It looks like this is what happened in the Arizona Regionals.

Moral of the story: we're going to go back to gunner + YT-1300 as a mainstay, and we will probably see some super PS builds as well. Once that happens, Phantom usage should regulate.

Can you elaborate on what happened on the Arizona Regionals ? Maybe you have some information that i don't. Yes, a whisper won the tournament, but 13/16 top spots were rebel players.

Apparently the sky is falling. Thats what happened at the AZ regionals.

I hate having to deal with Biggs. And Biggs that can cloak seems like it will bring me much joy. Plus you know if being defensive is a problem you could always slap SPG on it min/max your defense.

4 of the buggers right next to eachother might be a force to be reckoned with though. They can't quite manage the statistical hurdle of killing 2 X-wings in a round, while standing a decent chance of losing two ships round one if the opponent fires first/has Biggs. Granted, no list can do so, but no other low PS competitive list is so fragile either.

Again, from what I observed, many lists were specifically tailored around some anti-phantom insurance. Many brought Chewie and not too many TIE swarms (I want to say 4-6 total?). It was as if the meta shifted for anti phantom defense and very few had the fortitude (myself included) to fly the phantom in tournament. My prediction is when people realize that it's not indestructible, the lists and varieties will even out again.

As ManOnAWire stated, there were a number of Out if towners at the event, and 9 (by my count) that made top 16. Of those 9, I was the only Imperial player to my knowledge. So apparently that's the SoCal meta, rebel scum... Or phantom defense however you want to cut it.

Poor rebel {scum} pilots...always crying over things being broken/not having nice things/no access to X...

Sounds very familiar to other threads that people hated months ago about XYZ (not the build just substitutes!)...

Phantom is crazy. But goes poof in 1 shot about as often as an interceptor with 2 of the following: hull, sheild, ptl, stealth. And the interceptors guns are never "off for a round". They are mean right now. They will shake the meta harder than the interceptor but will probably fall in popularity to about interceptor levels in a month or three.

Best ship: Shuttle. It gets better with every crew, sensor, cannon, and mod released. Not so bad after you graduate from flight school with it.

Poor rebel {scum} pilots...always crying over things being broken/not having nice things/no access to X...

Sounds very familiar to other threads that people hated months ago about XYZ (not the build just substitutes!)...

Phantom is crazy. But goes poof in 1 shot about as often as an interceptor with 2 of the following: hull, sheild, ptl, stealth. And the interceptors guns are never "off for a round". They are mean right now. They will shake the meta harder than the interceptor but will probably fall in popularity to about interceptor levels in a month or three.

Best ship: Shuttle. It gets better with every crew, sensor, cannon, and mod released. Not so bad after you graduate from flight school with it.

The shuttle is amazing, for 24 point between Omi and vader you have one hell of a situation for your opponent to consider. You can run a list without a shuttle but whyyyyyy?

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

This is exactly it. If you don't bring gunner / higher PS to the table, the Phantom will counter just about everything. It looks like this is what happened in the Arizona Regionals.

Moral of the story: we're going to go back to gunner + YT-1300 as a mainstay, and we will probably see some super PS builds as well. Once that happens, Phantom usage should regulate.

Can you elaborate on what happened on the Arizona Regionals ? Maybe you have some information that i don't. Yes, a whisper won the tournament, but 13/16 top spots were rebel players.

Sure. First the theory-crafting again:

The Phantom squad would not have played against its counter in either the final match, or the match before it. The #2 squad had dual Falcons, but they were both lower PS and neither had gunner. If they had both had gunner, even if they were lower PS than Whisper at PS9, it could have been a much different story.

See here for reference:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1137368

There were 2 squads in the Top 8 that could have been a pseudo-counter: a PS9 Han, and another squad with Chewie + Gunner.

I don't know what the game breakdowns were. The Imperial player would have had initiative anyway and presumably would have moved and shot first to activate ACD before Han. Against a YT-1300 with Gunner, it's not quite as clear. I haven't done all the math on this yet, but I really do think that the best counter to a Phantom aside from PS9+ is going to be Gunner. Force those 4 agility to roll evades twice in a row against your 3+ dice...

Edit: I gave the math for this earlier in the thread, and the Arizona Regionals bore this out perfectly in the final match (hopefully we'll get video), so I'll drill this point home again:

A named YT-1300 by itself is not a counter to a VI + ACD Phantom! It merely matches the Phantom's brute-force power. You need to bring a higher PS and / or Gunner.

This is not like YT-1300 vs. TIE Interceptors where their only advantage is maneuverability and is neutered by a turret. This is something new. You need to negate the advantage of their 4 defense dice by either shooting first (PS) or shooting multiple times to get increase your chances of getting through (Gunner).

/soap box

So for a Phantom to be countered, you need to either bring:

1. YT-1300 + Gunner, or,
2. higher PS

Anything else, including named YT-1300 that don't have gunner and are at lower PS than your VI + ACD Phantom, are less points efficient than the Phantom.

Now the lists:

Link here: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/105107-2014-regionals-results/?p=1138560

Possible counters to Whisper + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Cloaking Device + Intelligence Agent are highlighted in red. The Final Cut was to Top 8. There was only one squad in the Top 8 that potentially could have countered Whisper. It lost in the first elimination round, so the Phantom squad may not have played against it. We don't know for sure.

The #2 squad had dual YT-1300, but the Phantom statistically counters the YT-1300 if the YT-1300 does not have gunner.

If your opponent has two+ PS9+ ships, then Intelligence Agent can't cover all the angles. The only real hard counter would be PS10+, and a VERY hard counter would be PS10+ with Gunner, or multiple ships with a firing solution at PS10+.

PS10+ isn't a hard counter. A good Phantom list will throw the supporting ships at this target and kill it before the Phantom seriously commits. You want to stop a Phantom in it's tracks? Take Han with VI. He's too tough for the supporting elements to remove alone and can weather a round or two of the Phantom's fire to kill it in return.

Does one need to specifically build anti phantom lists to do well though? That wasn't the only phantom build, I saw one with both whisper and echo! That indicates that people flying the phantom fell to other lists that were not Han with VI and gunner. Not to say the phantom is more dangerous with experienced players, but it's not necessary in order to win, just increases (sometimes significantly) your chances.

Does one need to specifically build anti phantom lists to do well though? That wasn't the only phantom build, I saw one with both whisper and echo! That indicates that people flying the phantom fell to other lists that were not Han with VI and gunner. Not to say the phantom is more dangerous with experienced players, but it's not necessary in order to win, just increases (sometimes significantly) your chances.

No you don't, particularly if you can do well in your other matches. Running Phantoms I think will become a case of rock, paper scissors in the future. Occasionally you will hit a great match up. most of the time you will have a good one. Occasionally someone will have brought one of the hard counters and you will go down hard.

The release of Wave 5 will also likely see a decrease in Phantoms as Outrider + HLC or Decimator + Rebel Captive both provide solid counters to them.

Does one need to specifically build anti phantom lists to do well though? That wasn't the only phantom build, I saw one with both whisper and echo! That indicates that people flying the phantom fell to other lists that were not Han with VI and gunner. Not to say the phantom is more dangerous with experienced players, but it's not necessary in order to win, just increases (sometimes significantly) your chances.

How many Phantom builds showed up at the regionals? I know it will be a guess but close is good enough.

If your opponent has two+ PS9+ ships, then Intelligence Agent can't cover all the angles. The only real hard counter would be PS10+, and a VERY hard counter would be PS10+ with Gunner, or multiple ships with a firing solution at PS10+.

PS10+ isn't a hard counter. A good Phantom list will throw the supporting ships at this target and kill it before the Phantom seriously commits. You want to stop a Phantom in it's tracks? Take Han with VI. He's too tough for the supporting elements to remove alone and can weather a round or two of the Phantom's fire to kill it in return.

Assuming your PS10 pilot actually has a shot on the Phantom, shooting at a 2 agility target is going to do significantly more damage than shooting at a 4 agility target. It about halves the Phantom's durability to have 2 agility instead of 4. That's a very hard counter. It is true that the counter can itself be countered by the rest of the Phantom's squad, but that doesn't suddenly mean that PS10+ is no longer a thread to ACD Phantoms.

Also, Biggs.

If your opponent has two+ PS9+ ships, then Intelligence Agent can't cover all the angles. The only real hard counter would be PS10+, and a VERY hard counter would be PS10+ with Gunner, or multiple ships with a firing solution at PS10+.

PS10+ isn't a hard counter. A good Phantom list will throw the supporting ships at this target and kill it before the Phantom seriously commits. You want to stop a Phantom in it's tracks? Take Han with VI. He's too tough for the supporting elements to remove alone and can weather a round or two of the Phantom's fire to kill it in return.

Assuming your PS10 pilot actually has a shot on the Phantom, shooting at a 2 agility target is going to do significantly more damage than shooting at a 4 agility target. It about halves the Phantom's durability to have 2 agility instead of 4. That's a very hard counter. It is true that the counter can itself be countered by the rest of the Phantom's squad, but that doesn't suddenly mean that PS10+ is no longer a thread to ACD Phantoms.

Also, Biggs.

If PS skill is equal, the Phantom pilot has a tough choice to make as to whether to take initiative or not. Take the positional advantage of giving up initiative or take initiative to make sure you fire first and can cloak. What do most people think will be better?

Hands down, shoot first to get the +2 defense dice. And if you have Intelligence Agent in your squad somewhere, like at the Arizona Regionals, it doesn't matter unless your opponent has TWO PS9 ships.

Edit: Just my 2 cents, theory crafting.

To answer the regionals question:

My guess 4? I saw for sure 3, two one phantom builds and and one two phantom builds. So for SURE 3 and I would say no more than 5. So <10%.

Manonawire could probably quote exactly probably as he was TO (thanks again BTW you did an awesome job and deserve a public shoutout).

I don’t want to derail a good discussion with squad building but after reading the last couple of pages I had to post this for a laugh.

Would be quite humorous just to see the look on your Whisper toting opponents face with the following:

51 Chewie, Marksman, Gunner, Title
24 Roark, Ion

25 Biggs

52 Han Solo, VI, Gunner

48 4 x Bandits

52 Han Solo, VI, Gunner

45 Lando, VI

And how do you feel the second two lists will go against standard lists? Try not to gimp yourself against everything else when you build a list with defeating Phantoms in mind.

And how do you feel the second two lists will go against standard lists? Try not to gimp yourself against everything else when you build a list with defeating Phantoms in mind.

A well rounded squad was not the point of my post, just a little fun against Whisper.

I am a little surprised more Phantoms didn't show up at the regionals. How about the rest of Wave four? Do you recall how many people showed up with Z-95's, Defender's and E-Wings?

Three defenders (all in one build)

One E wing (a knave, not a named pilot)

Many Z95's. Mostly bandits to splash for points

At least one rebel swarm with 5 Z95's all with missiles on them of some sort and Blount and Craken (I think)

In the whole day I only played against one Z95' a Tala Squadron pilot... Weird, right?

I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

Funny story, at the Singapore Regionals I played against 3 Phantom lists out of 7 games and met z95 only once.

On the other hand my friend only played against 1 Phantom out of 7 games but met several z95s.

I imagine a lot of players would want more practice with the new wave before rebuilding their tried-and-proven lists.

That's why trying to draw any conclussion from one tournament is just wrong. Even tho i liked MajorJuggler post because of the time and effort he put into it, i still think it is just too soon, specially if you are going to mention one regional results as a proof to back up your argument.