Part of the problem I see with declaring the ships the best right out of the gate. First, you have had so few games to work out the proper squad to include with the phantom. We are solely talking about the named pilots with two upgrades. If you judge the ship just based on it's self it not scary at all. So by the title in the thread "best ship" not "best pilot with upgrades" I don't consider the Phantom the best.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

After the few games I got in with it so far, I wonder if a better contender for the title of new best ship would be the Defender.

Flew against one of my friends yesterday who is relatively new to the game, who decided to take two PS1 defenders and Echo. Against Etahn and two Adv Sensor HLC Blue squadron B-Wings he managed to finish me off! I was only able to kill one of his Defenders. The second list I ran, cutting edge, did much better but I still lost a Hawk. I'm confident it can do wonders in the right hands.

The only problem with this ship is cost, which is not insignificant, but I think it might be one of the easiest ships in the game that wins back the points you put into it.

Zero Defenders have shown up in any of the Final Cut / Top Third so far, for the 2 (partially) Reported Regionals. Given that it has the jousting efficiency of the TIE Advanced for its cost, I doubt that a white K-turn will make it the best ship. Usable in some scenarios, sure, but certainly not the best ship.

Um, Interceptors have had 4 defense dice and good positioning forever(see stealth device). This ia no different. It isn't that huge a deal. 4 Defense dice is more than hittable without gunner. Something as simple as Target Lock and Focus makes hitting incredibly likely. Phantoms are just more expensive, more damaging, more durable, but not for the points, and more manuveverable. So again. 4 defense. Not broken. Very hittable. Learning to track a Phantoms movements is less great, but even then an Interceptor with stealth, fous and Evade is actually harder to hit than a phantom with focus and cloak, and that hasn't ben broken ever.

Did you read my earlier post? Relevant summary points are quoted and are bolded below. Looking at their brute-force statline, the VI+ACD TIE Phantom is significantly more points efficient than the TIE Interceptor. As stated earlier, a VI + ACD Phantom has about the same absolute brute force as a gunnerless (and lower PS) YT-1300.

This means that a 35 point VI + ACD Echo can go toe-to-toe with a 44 point Lando, and they'll be about tied in terms of absolute power. In this case, the Phantom (less points) is actually countering the YT-1300, not the other way around!

The YT-1300 NEEDS Gunner and/or a higher PS to counter the Phantom. If it has neither, the ACD Phantom will be far more points efficient, and the YT-1300 will statistically lose.

I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.

I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.

There are 2 core issues:

1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round

2) Cost efficiency

I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.

#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:

• A PS9 TIE Interceptor pays about an 87% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value.
• A PS9 TIE Phantom pays about a 30% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value (assuming ACD)

That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.

Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+

Also not included in this analysis are the options of:

• Recon Spec on Whisper for nearly 100% chance of focus with 4 defense dice
• Echo at PS8 for even better maneuverability

Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MathWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.

I don't understand the resistance to the commonly accepted math, Juggler.

The numbers don't lie, it's that simple.

Numerically, the Phantom is a monster. On the board, the Phantom is a monster.

I don't understand why people are keeping their heads in the sand about it.

The math proves the argument. If nothing else - even if you call the Phantom Vs. Falcon a DEAD HEAT - the points cost gives the Phantom the win.

Never mind that you need ANOTHER 5 point upgrade to make it work.

Because the math doesn't account for the fact that 4 HP on a 40 point ship is hellishly unreliable, that 4 Evade has never been broken, and that the ship goes down like a rock with a bad roll. Those happen. Moreover a single bad matchup is death for the Phantom Squad, balancing their tournament viability. There are soon going to be at least 6 Pilots that with Vet instincts fire Turrets before Advanced Cloaking Device allows a recloak. There are about a a dozen named ships that can fire before Phantoms, and a few ways to make any ship do so. Having a High PS pilot with Decoy and an intiative bid could easily be enough to turn the Phantom into a Z-95 defensively. None of these are costly tactics. Mass PS9 Swarm tactics could be enough.

Cloaking does not always work. If your math counts on cloaking always working your math is wrong. You can deny the Phantom shots. You can stress the Phantom before it attacks. You can double stress a Phantom. You can Ionize a Phantom before it shoots. You can use Heavy laser Cannons.

And once that 4 HP 35-40 points dies you are doomed.

Wedge Eats Phantoms. Han eats phantoms.

Soontir Fel Eats phantoms.

PS8 pilots with Vet instincts eat phantoms.

PS7 Pilots with vet Instincts and Initiative Eat Phantoms.

Ships with Outmanuever can eat phantoms.

Splash damage hinders Phantoms.

Bombs Hinder phantoms.

Darth Vader as Crew eats Phantoms.

just because it has amazing jousting Values does not make it broken. It's a good ship, but it is not the end of the world.

It's not the end of the world. But it is probably the best ship.

Because the math doesn't account for the fact that 4 HP on a 40 point ship is hellishly unreliable, that 4 Evade has never been broken, and that the ship goes down like a rock with a bad roll. Those happen.

I only calculated the mean values, and didn't include the standard deviation. I'll have to add that later. I'll give it some thought.

Regardless, the mean values are what they are. They are very good on the Phantom. I would be willing to bet, without yet running the numbers, that the stat line cost efficiency of the TIE Phantom even at -2 sigma would be better than the Interceptor's mean.

Agreed to all of the above.

No, the math isn't wrong. It does have clearly defined assumptions on when it is applicable. If you're using the 4/4/2/2 based math to try and predict how well a Phantom will do without its ACD yet kicking in, then that's a user error.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

This is exactly it. If you don't bring gunner / higher PS to the table, the Phantom will counter just about everything. It looks like this is what happened in the Arizona Regionals.

Moral of the story: we're going to go back to gunner + YT-1300 as a mainstay, and we will probably see some super PS builds as well. Once that happens, Phantom usage should regulate.

When you need 5+ of any ship for it to be considered a threat, it stops being in the conversation for "best ship". Ie, Tie Fighters.

A naked Tie without howlrunner or support is the most non threatening ship in the game. Well, 2nd behind the headhunter.

When you need 5+ of any ship for it to be considered a threat, it stops being in the conversation for "best ship". Ie, Tie Fighters.

A naked Tie without howlrunner or support is the most non threatening ship in the game. Well, 2nd behind the headhunter.

Part of the problem I see with declaring the ships the best right out of the gate. First, you have had so few games to work out the proper squad to include with the phantom. We are solely talking about the named pilots with two upgrades. If you judge the ship just based on it's self it not scary at all. So by the title in the thread "best ship" not "best pilot with upgrades" I don't consider the Phantom the best.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

Does the base YT ever see play? No, its always a named pilot. Base phantoms are good ships, with IV and Adv Cloak they become the most threatening ship on the board.

Without Han or Chewbacca + gunner, the phantom will eat anything you throw at it.

Someone mentioned soontir and Vader as counters and it make me laugh soda out of my nose. 35 pts, 1v1 echo would decimate both pilots hands down. Shooting before a phantom doene mean you kill it. The phantom if player right, won't even be in your fire arc. That is why the falcon is the only true counter. You really think vader's 2 atk die are going to get enough hits vs a phantom to kill it? Especially if its throwing out 4+ defense die?

The phantom should be dancing around at R3 and taking free shots outside of arcs. Shooting first alone isnt enough.

You seem to fighting against more because you dislike the thought and idea of the phantom being a best ship. Youre starting to remind me of my pops and how he thinks everything from the 60's was better because god forbid something new and better comes out.

People haven't even scratched the surface of the phantom and what it can do. Be late to the party all you want. But within 3 months and the meta is VASTLY different then it is now, you have the phantom to thank.

Denial is best served with a slice of crow.

When you need 5+ of any ship for it to be considered a threat, it stops being in the conversation for "best ship". Ie, Tie Fighters.

A naked Tie without howlrunner or support is the most non threatening ship in the game. Well, 2nd behind the headhunter.

Honestly this is completely wrong. Name a better 12 points to fill out a list than another ship. Ties are more threatening for their cost than any ship in the game. Bar none. It mucks up all your moves, can take a lot of fire for the cost, and is cheap enough to rely on 3 agility with. Low points does not equal non-threatening. A good blocker is better at screwing with plans than most ships. A good blocker its not crippling to lose is better. And the Advanced is by far the least threatening ahip in the game, unless you count turretless hawks.

Save for the headhunter,name one ship that is scared of the Tie fighter 1v1.. I'll wait..

Hell, 35 pts of swarm vs 35 pts of phantom and let's see what happens.

When you need 5+ of any ship for it to be considered a threat, it stops being in the conversation for "best ship". Ie, Tie Fighters.

A naked Tie without howlrunner or support is the most non threatening ship in the game. Well, 2nd behind the headhunter.

Honestly this is completely wrong. Name a better 12 points to fill out a list than another ship. Ties are more threatening for their cost than any ship in the game. Bar none. It mucks up all your moves, can take a lot of fire for the cost, and is cheap enough to rely on 3 agility with. Low points does not equal non-threatening. A good blocker is better at screwing with plans than most ships. A good blocker its not crippling to lose is better. And the Advanced is by far the least threatening ahip in the game, unless you count turretless hawks.

Save for the headhunter,name one ship that is scared of the Tie fighter 1v1.. I'll wait..

Hell, 35 pts of swarm vs 35 pts of phantom and let's see what happens.

3v1

Tie vs Phantom.

36 pts, place your bets..

3v1

Tie vs Phantom.

36 pts, place your bets..

Beyond that Ties are good in every format. Throw a Phantom in Epic and see how it fares.(Not well)

This thread has devolved.

Can you mathematically prove the best ship, for the most part yes.

Is the Phantom R0xx0rs by those metrics? Yes

Is the tie still one of the most R0xx0rs ships because of efficiency? Yes

Will the Refit A wing also fit that bill? Yes

Part of the problem I see with declaring the ships the best right out of the gate. First, you have had so few games to work out the proper squad to include with the phantom. We are solely talking about the named pilots with two upgrades. If you judge the ship just based on it's self it not scary at all. So by the title in the thread "best ship" not "best pilot with upgrades" I don't consider the Phantom the best.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

Does the base YT ever see play? No, its always a named pilot. Base phantoms are good ships, with IV and Adv Cloak they become the most threatening ship on the board.

Without Han or Chewbacca + gunner, the phantom will eat anything you throw at it.

Someone mentioned soontir and Vader as counters and it make me laugh soda out of my nose. 35 pts, 1v1 echo would decimate both pilots hands down. Shooting before a phantom doene mean you kill it. The phantom if player right, won't even be in your fire arc. That is why the falcon is the only true counter. You really think vader's 2 atk die are going to get enough hits vs a phantom to kill it? Especially if its throwing out 4+ defense die?

The phantom should be dancing around at R3 and taking free shots outside of arcs. Shooting first alone isnt enough.

You seem to fighting against more because you dislike the thought and idea of the phantom being a best ship. Youre starting to remind me of my pops and how he thinks everything from the 60's was better because god forbid something new and better comes out.

People haven't even scratched the surface of the phantom and what it can do. Be late to the party all you want. But within 3 months and the meta is VASTLY different then it is now, you have the phantom to thank.

Denial is best served with a slice of crow.

Kinda like how you're assuming the phantom pilot is dumb enough to uncloak without making sure he would have a shot?

And how can you say they will avoid its arcs when the phantom is more menuverable? Everything soontir and Vader can do, a phantom can do better.

Even the most maneuverable ships will get shot at. Echo is maneuverable and all, but Fell and Vader (especially with Engine Upgrade) will know where he is.

Broken is a very strong word.

I just think it is severely undercosted.

Since mathematically it lines up with a Falcon, if it's cost were closer to that range, I don't think this conversation would even be happening.

Probably not. Because few would be flying the bloody thing. 40 to 50 points for something that can go poof in a single shot when a stroke of bad luck hits? When Interceptors with SD going down at range 3 is far from uncommon? And with a high a skill requirement to fly well?

The only people fielding it would be those that loved it because they played Rebel Assault to death.

Broken is a very strong word. I just think it is severely undercosted. Since mathematically it lines up with a Falcon, if it's cost were closer to that range, I don't think this conversation would even be happening.

Probably not. Because few would be flying the bloody thing. 40 to 50 points for something that can go poof in a single shot when a stroke of bad luck hits? When Interceptors with SD going down at range 3 is far from uncommon? And with a high a skill requirement to fly well?The only people fielding it would be those that loved it because they played Rebel Assault to death.

Exactly. There is a high cost to the risk of bad luck. The falcon cannot go down in one range shot ever. My Phantom has. My Phantom will again.

TBH if you don't think that the YT-1300 is the best ship in the game then there's something wrong with you. There are no clear cut answer to it besides brute force and it is the hard counter to A LOT of stuff. Its only real downside is its point cost, which is not really a big thing because on the rebels side of the table everything was points bloated until the Z-95 came along.

The phantom is just another tool in the box. It's a good tool but its efficacy is dependent on both the pilot of the list as well as the opponents ability to deal with it.

TBH if you don't think that the YT-1300 is the best ship in the game then there's something wrong with you. There are no clear cut answer to it besides brute force and it is the hard counter to A LOT of stuff. Its only real downside is its point cost, which is not really a big thing because on the rebels side of the table everything was points bloated until the Z-95 came along.

The phantom is just another tool in the box. It's a good tool but its efficacy is dependent on both the pilot of the list as well as the opponents ability to deal with it.

It's the filler ships that are the best. Individually they cost little, but, they're amazing when flown well.

TBH if you don't think that the YT-1300 is the best ship in the game then there's something wrong with you. There are no clear cut answer to it besides brute force and it is the hard counter to A LOT of stuff. Its only real downside is its point cost, which is not really a big thing because on the rebels side of the table everything was points bloated until the Z-95 came along.

The phantom is just another tool in the box. It's a good tool but its efficacy is dependent on both the pilot of the list as well as the opponents ability to deal with it.

No way. Chewie maybe, but all in all the YT has miserable firepower for the points. Worse than the tie advanced. It's just super tanky, and can play fast and loose with dodging firing arcs and atill always have a shot. Good, but super inhibitory when it comes to team building. Although I like FalconZZZZ lists as an idea.

It's the filler ships that are the best. Individually they cost little, but, they're amazing when flown well.

Its more to do with the fact that in the previous meta going to 4 ships as rebels actually dilutes your list and going to 4 ships without Bwings was pretty much suicide. Now they have decent filler ships so the list building is more open. But even so its hard to beat Chewie + DTF/ Determination for the good times.

On Vassal we've been trying out the "Phantom Challenge": 3 Rookie Pilots with Shield upgrades versus one fully loaded Phantom, pick any upgrades you like.

In the four playtests we've done, the Rookie's went 4-0. (Have to throw out one of the results though; Imperial pilot beached the Phantom early on an asteroid and got killed soon after.)

But it has been close. In the first Phantom challenge I very nearly won with the Phantom - was one barrel roll away from nailing it (after losing both shields early with all 3 Rookie's on the board).

Part of the problem I see with declaring the ships the best right out of the gate. First, you have had so few games to work out the proper squad to include with the phantom. We are solely talking about the named pilots with two upgrades. If you judge the ship just based on it's self it not scary at all. So by the title in the thread "best ship" not "best pilot with upgrades" I don't consider the Phantom the best.

Yes the Phantom is something to be aware of, it is a monster, but only with VI and ACD. Rate the ship with out these upgrades and see what you get. It's **** near suicide to fly Echo with no upgrades and it's not a whole lot better for Whisper. Will the Sigma Pilot ever see play?

Does the base YT ever see play? No, its always a named pilot. Base phantoms are good ships, with IV and Adv Cloak they become the most threatening ship on the board.

Without Han or Chewbacca + gunner, the phantom will eat anything you throw at it.

Someone mentioned soontir and Vader as counters and it make me laugh soda out of my nose. 35 pts, 1v1 echo would decimate both pilots hands down. Shooting before a phantom doene mean you kill it. The phantom if player right, won't even be in your fire arc. That is why the falcon is the only true counter. You really think vader's 2 atk die are going to get enough hits vs a phantom to kill it? Especially if its throwing out 4+ defense die?

The phantom should be dancing around at R3 and taking free shots outside of arcs. Shooting first alone isnt enough.

You seem to fighting against more because you dislike the thought and idea of the phantom being a best ship. Youre starting to remind me of my pops and how he thinks everything from the 60's was better because god forbid something new and better comes out.

People haven't even scratched the surface of the phantom and what it can do. Be late to the party all you want. But within 3 months and the meta is VASTLY different then it is now, you have the phantom to thank.

Denial is best served with a slice of crow.

I'm not sleeping on the Phantom, I realize it's good. I started play testing the Phantom as soon as they released the dial. I may have more games played with it than most on here. At first I felt like God as I crushed everything with it. After my play test group learned the ship and how to control it it fell a couple steps down. It is always a threat when it's on the table. The offense of the Phantom is a sight to behold. I have seen the ship get picked off many many times while cloaked with focus. One of the things everyone will eventually learn is an astroid placement that limits the Phantom, the meta can hate out the ship and it really matters what the other 60 points are in your list. The debate is over "the best ship" not whether the Phantom is good. No one is saying the Phantom is bad, just a little overhyped. If we are saying best ship of wave 4, yup the Phantom wins hands down or does it? Has anyone done much testing with Etahn based squads yet?

Why wouldn't you use the Sigma?

Its +4 points for a better Rookie X-wing.

Why wouldn't you use the Sigma?

Its +4 points for a better Rookie X-wing.

Sigma is PS 3 bro.

The only real loss is it has -1 hull. In return it gets a cloak and the ability to mount either FCS or AdvS. Good deal imo.