The only thing I truly dislike about the Phantom is the Advanced Cloaking Device. That is the card that makes a mess, in my opinion.
As for you, Tusken Raider, I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. Your posts are always well thought out, and whether or not I agree with you I learn from the discussion. Hopefully we can indeed play one another at Regionals or Worlds, I'll buy the first pint at the after action review. :-)
What will be interesting is to see what the rebels get in response to the Phantom in Wave 6.
The Imps can't be the only ones to get a highly evasive and maneuverable ship.
Let the speculation begin.
How about that double EPT slot Jake Ferrel? Or Gemmer and his 5 agility with SD.
Also, the Outrider is going to love fighting Phantoms...
What will be interesting is to see what the rebels get in response to the Phantom in Wave 6.
The Imps can't be the only ones to get a highly evasive and maneuverable ship.
Let the speculation begin.
How about that double EPT slot Jake Ferrel? Or Gemmer and his 5 agility with SD.
Also, the Outrider is going to love fighting Phantoms...
Oh man - A-Wing Barrel Roll - where do I sign?
The only thing I truly dislike about the Phantom is the Advanced Cloaking Device. That is the card that makes a mess, in my opinion.
As for you, Tusken Raider, I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. Your posts are always well thought out, and whether or not I agree with you I learn from the discussion. Hopefully we can indeed play one another at Regionals or Worlds, I'll buy the first pint at the after action review. :-)
Beyond that, Advanced Cloaking Device was necessary. Without it the named Phantoms are decidedly meh. Cloaking needed a way to work every turn.
It might have been better to have an EPT that allowed the recloak after firing so that Vet Instincts wasn't as big an issue. I'm not sure. But I think if Phantoms were any less powerful they would be awful.
Don't they get the Outrider with HLC Turret? That'll do!
Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.
Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.
Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.
Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.
With all due respect, if you're consistently crashing echo on decloak when there are 90 different options to choose from, it is bad flying and not his (echo is a male clone trooper) fault.
In fact, its terrible flying considering you could have stayed cloaked.
Continuing with the part of thread where less often used upgrades see new life...
The Autoblaster on low PS pilots (especially those given a PS enhancement effect - Swarm Tactics, Roark, etc) or a naturally higher PS will make being cloaked irrelevant as a defense.
Likewise, poximity mines can add to the denial of area/movement paths available to phantoms (to secure the rear), so to speak.
Asteroid placement will get more consideration as, for a given list, keeping asteroid closer - flying closer to them (as a means to deny a range 1 approach). IMO, players will benefit from developing more of an "cover my wingman" mentality in maneuvering, not just firing.
RogueMorgan
Edited by RogueMorganThe only thing I truly dislike about the Phantom is the Advanced Cloaking Device. That is the card that makes a mess, in my opinion.
As for you, Tusken Raider, I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. Your posts are always well thought out, and whether or not I agree with you I learn from the discussion. Hopefully we can indeed play one another at Regionals or Worlds, I'll buy the first pint at the after action review. :-)
But that cloak is basically the only thing that gives the Phantom a hope of surviving being shot at. Without it, those two evade dice and four hull will disappear in a single round. Even with it, you're still going to take hits, same as you would with Dark Curse and a Stealth Device. You cannot simply fly the way you are used to flying (tight formations, focused fire in a single direction) because a skilled Phantom pilot will explot that. You need to be willing to point your ships in multiple directions and cover a wide area so that there's nowhere safe for the Phantom to go.
It's definitely a game changer. When building lists, you will need to consider if your list will be able to handle a Phantom.
I'm currently considering the following lists:
Roark w/ Ion Cannon & Recon Specialist
Cracken w/ Swarm Tactics & Hull Upgrade
2x Blue Squadron w/ FCS
At 99 points, you get the initiative bid, and this list gives you lots of ways to deal with a Phantom pilot. You can bump Cracken to a 12 and have him share it with either a Blue or with Roark. Cracken's attack can grant a barrel roll to one B-Wing, possibly putting the Phantom in arc before it can re-Cloak.
Chewbacca w/ Opportunist, Gunner & Tactician
Cracken w/ Swarm Tactics
Blue w/ Sensor Jammer
A variation on SaberGryphon's Bluebacca list, partially driven by my lack of a second Sensor Jammer or Han Solo crew member. With Gunner, a foolish Phantom who ends up in Range 2 of Chewie's firing arc could find themselves saddled with two stress tokens. Even one would be enough to prevent them from recloaking and forcing them into a predictable green maneuver.
Downsides to both lists are the relative lack of red dice if facing a more durable build or a Swarm.
Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.
Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.
Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.
Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.
With all due respect, if you're consistently crashing echo on decloak when there are 90 different options to choose from, it is bad flying and not his (echo is a male clone trooper) fault.
Wait... that's who it's supposed to be in the game? Wow, I never realized It was the same Echo from The Clone Wars show. That's awesome!
Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.
Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.
Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.
Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.
With all due respect, if you're consistently crashing echo on decloak when there are 90 different options to choose from, it is bad flying and not his (echo is a male clone trooper) fault.
In fact, its terrible flying considering you could have stayed cloaked.
I don't dispute that my flying in those matches was terrible (especially the second match). A good deal of it could have been avoided by remembering that I had taken Advanced Sensors and could have cloaked before ever flipping my first movement dial. But that's the thing with the Phantom. To possibly an even greater extent than an Interceptor, all it takes is a single mis-gauged position or a single forgotten dial maneuver to lead you to disaster, as you don't have the natural 3 green dice to protect you.
Continuing with the part of thread where less often used upgrades see new life...
The Autoblaster on low PS pilots (especially those given a PS enhancement effect - Swarm Tactics, Roark, etc) or a naturally higher PS will make being cloaked irrelevant as a defense.
Likewise, poximity mines can add to the denial of area/movement paths available to phantoms (to secure the rear), so to speak.
Asteroid placement will get more consideration as, for a given list, keeping asteroid closer - flying closer to them (as a means to deny a range 1 approach). IMO, players will benefit from developing more of an "cover my wingman" mentality in maneuvering, not just firing.
RogueMorgan
Surprised more people aren't talking about this.
Autoblaster (which was popular for like... 10 minutes) will do all kinds of hurt to a Phantom if it can get a shot off.
I still love Ten Numb + AB, despite it's weaknesses. HLC is such a beast, but Autoblaster in close is just vicious, and if you have one of "those" dice days when all the sides seem to be painted with hits - buckle in.
Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.
Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.
Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.
Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.
With all due respect, if you're consistently crashing echo on decloak when there are 90 different options to choose from, it is bad flying and not his (echo is a male clone trooper) fault.
Wait... that's who it's supposed to be in the game? Wow, I never realized It was the same Echo from The Clone Wars show. That's awesome!
That Echo was blown up and died, so it's doubtful. Granted, X-wing doesn't stay terribly beholden to that kind of continuity but that was a while before A New Hope.
Continuing with the part of thread where less often used upgrades see new life...
The Autoblaster on low PS pilots (especially those given a PS enhancement effect - Swarm Tactics, Roark, etc) or a naturally higher PS will make being cloaked irrelevant as a defense.
Likewise, poximity mines can add to the denial of area/movement paths available to phantoms (to secure the rear), so to speak.
Asteroid placement will get more consideration as, for a given list, keeping asteroid closer - flying closer to them (as a means to deny a range 1 approach). IMO, players will benefit from developing more of an "cover my wingman" mentality in maneuvering, not just firing.
RogueMorgan
Surprised more people aren't talking about this.
Autoblaster (which was popular for like... 10 minutes) will do all kinds of hurt to a Phantom if it can get a shot off.
I still love Ten Numb + AB, despite it's weaknesses. HLC is such a beast, but Autoblaster in close is just vicious, and if you have one of "those" dice days when all the sides seem to be painted with hits - buckle in.
The range one restriction is, all things considered, devastating against Phantoms.
That said, Ten and Kath Scarlet both offer a good chance to deal out some hurt to Phantoms via crits.
I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.
I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.
There are 2 core issues:
1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round
2) Cost efficiency
I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.
#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:
That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.
Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+
Also not included in this analysis are the options of:
Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MathWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.
MathWing quoted here again for reference.
Edited by MajorJugglerMathWing perspective.
TIE Interceptor:
- A TIE Interceptor is worth about 16 points of raw jousting value (PS1 equivalent).
- To get a PS9 Ace, it costs 30 points (Soontir Fel + PtL).
- You are effectively paying an 87.5% premium (14 points) to:
- go from PS1 to PS9
- get Fel's ability + PtL
- Get the added maenuverability afforded by the Interceptor.
TIE Phantom:
- A TIE Phantom with perma-cloaking (4/4/2/2 stats) is worth about 28.5 points of jousting value. (PS1 equivalent)
- To get a PS9 Phantom Ace, it costs you a minimum of 37 points (Whisper + VI + ACD).
- You are effectively paying a 30% premium (8.5 points) to:
- go from PS1 to PS9
- get Whisper's ability
- get the added maneuverability afforded by the cloaking action + ACD.
Given that:
- The cloaking action is significantly better than the boost action
- The true cost above the raw jousting value is fairly low in the case of the Phantom
... it's hard to see the PS8/9 ACD Phantoms as anything short of spectacular.
[Edit] For reference, a named YT-1300, 3/1/8/5 statline has a PS1 equivalent jousting value of about 26 (pre upgrades). So without gunner, Chewie/Lando have about the same firepower*durability as the Phantom, assuming the Phantom shoots first to activate ACD. With gunner, the balance shifts towards the YT, but it costs much more and I would have to run the numbers to see exactly how much that improves its damage output specifically against a 4 agility target.
This is all theory crafting from your resident nerd that has yet to actually play with the ship. Stay tuned for another episode of MathWing with MajorJuggler....
I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.
I'm still going to wait and reserve judgement on it until we have a few weeks' worth of Regionals data on it. But I suspect that ACD cost / mechanic is looking extremely overpowered / undercosted. The only way to keep the Phantoms from flooding the meta, is if enough people auto-bring PS9+ turrets to counter it. So there are feedback mechanisms already in place within the meta, and eventually it will reach equilibrium. But as KO as been saying repeatedly, in a game pf paper / rock / scissors, the Phantom is a super-rock. The above MathWing numbers quantify that and prove his point: even if all it does is joust you, it's still going to be really, really good, having only to pay 30% more than its jousting value to get to PS9 and get its super-abilities. Therefore, when the meta finally does reach equilibrium, it will be biased towards the Phantom, because it's simply so cost effective.
There are 2 core issues:
1) ACD + cloack action = free cloaking action + free decloack maneuver every round
2) Cost efficiency
I can't comment from experience on #1, but it's obvious that this mechanic is far superior to Boost, especially with Echo.
#2 I can provide numbers for, which should help "complete" and round out the discussion:
That is a HUGE difference, and points to the TIE Phantom being superior to the TIE Interceptor in the same role even before considering that the cloak action + ACD auto recloack is far better than boost. When you add in the free ACD cloak / decloak mechanic, it is far, FAR superior to the Interceptor.
- A PS9 TIE Interceptor pays about an 87% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value.
- A PS9 TIE Phantom pays about a 30% premium over its raw PS1 jousting value (assuming ACD)
Simply running a turreted named YT-1300 is not a hard counter, because statistically, a 3/1/8/5 statline has almost the same exact jousting value as a 4/4/2/2 statline. You'll need gunner on the YT-1300 to counter the Phantom, and/or PS10+
Also not included in this analysis are the options of:
Both of these options obviously make the Phantom even better. The MAthWing numbers assume the defender has a 50% chance of having a focus for use on defense. If the Phantom has a 100% chance of focus (Whisper + Recon Spec) then it's going to be even beefier. And there's the system upgrade slot as well that you can make use of.
- Recon Spec on Whisper for nearly 100% chance of focus with 4 defense dice
- Echo at PS8 for even better maneuverability
MathWing quoted here again for reference.
MathWing perspective.
TIE Interceptor:
- A TIE Interceptor is worth about 16 points of raw jousting value (PS1 equivalent).
- To get a PS9 Ace, it costs 30 points (Soontir Fel + PtL).
- You are effectively paying an 87.5% premium (14 points) to:
TIE Phantom:
- go from PS1 to PS9
- get Fel's ability + PtL
- Get the added maenuverability afforded by the Interceptor.
- A TIE Phantom with perma-cloaking (4/4/2/2 stats) is worth about 28.5 points of jousting value. (PS1 equivalent)
- To get a PS9 Phantom Ace, it costs you a minimum of 37 points (Whisper + VI + ACD).
- You are effectively paying a 30% premium (8.5 points) to:
- go from PS1 to PS9
- get Whisper's ability
- get the added maneuverability afforded by the cloaking action + ACD.
Given that:
... it's hard to see the PS8/9 ACD Phantoms as anything short of spectacular.
- The cloaking action is significantly better than the boost action
- The true cost above the raw jousting value is fairly low in the case of the Phantom
[Edit] For reference, a named YT-1300, 3/1/8/5 statline has a PS1 equivalent jousting value of about 26 (pre upgrades). So without gunner, Chewie/Lando have about the same firepower*durability as the Phantom, assuming the Phantom shoots first to activate ACD. With gunner, the balance shifts towards the YT, but it costs much more and I would have to run the numbers to see exactly how much that improves its damage output specifically against a 4 agility target.
This is all theory crafting from your resident nerd that has yet to actually play with the ship. Stay tuned for another episode of MathWing with MajorJuggler....
All of which points to the End of the Joust. Jousting is no longer a solid tactic. Thank FFG this is no longer a game where lining up Civil War Style is effective with some lists.
It doesn't matter. Eventually you have to shoot each other. At that point, the attack / durability numbers matter.
Edit: and the perma-cloaked TIE Phantom is cost effective enough that it almost CAN joust straight up. So imagine how powerful it will be now that it can outmaneuver anything in the game as well.
Edited by MajorJuggler
All of which points to the End of the Joust. Jousting is no longer a solid tactic. Thank FFG this is no longer a game where lining up Civil War Style is effective with some lists.
It doesn't matter. Eventually you have to shoot each other. At that point, the attack / durability numbers matter.
Edit: and the TIE Phantom is cost effective enough that it almost CAN joust straight up. So imagine how powerful it will be now that it can outmaneuver anything in the game as well.
It's certainly interesting when comparing it to an interceptor, since we know the interceptor is a good ship but is not a good jouster point-for-point and survives because of its ability to maneuver while the Phantom is far better in both categories.
Edited by AlexW
All of which points to the End of the Joust. Jousting is no longer a solid tactic. Thank FFG this is no longer a game where lining up Civil War Style is effective with some lists.I'm kind of surprised that nobody commented on the MathWing numbers. It is INCREDIBLY telling, because it puts a bare minimum performance that should be expected out the the Phantom, based on just the raw jousting values. The most similar ship to it in playstyle is a high PS Interceptor. Both operate around arc dodging.
I've said since the second I played one that the Phantom was the single most powerful small (maybe large) ship in the game.
I no longer lean towards them being "broken," per se - but they are (based on my experience and the above math) well under costed for what they can do.
I said in an earlier thread, and I stand by my remarks, though I have tempered my opinion slightly since then:
FFG did not playtest the Phantom well enough or they purposefully undercosted it to bring about changes they wanted in the meta of the game.
Whether it's broken or not, there is no doubt that ACD represents the largest shift in the meta to date. 360 Turrets didn't require an ENTIRE new way of thinking about the game. All the lists we ran before the falcon we ran after the falcon. If you run your old XXBB lists against the Phantom, you will lose.
This particular disturbance in the force is going to cause ripples I don't think FFG intended.
I don't think they are invincible - but the are however extremely difficult to hit when cloaked. There are hard counters, sure. But none of that changes how powerful they are.
All of which points to the End of the Joust. Jousting is no longer a solid tactic. Thank FFG this is no longer a game where lining up Civil War Style is effective with some lists.
It doesn't matter. Eventually you have to shoot each other. At that point, the attack / durability numbers matter.
Edit: and the TIE Phantom is cost effective enough that it almost CAN joust straight up. So imagine how powerful it will be now that it can outmaneuver anything in the game as well.
It's certainly interesting when comparing it to an interceptor, since we know the interceptor is a good ship but is not a good jouster point-for-point and survives because of its ability to maneuver while the Phantom is far better in both categories.
That's exactly it right there. The only tradeoff against the Phantom is something that moves after it, and shoots before it. PS 10+ will be a thing. To date I don't think I have seen anyone bring PS11 to any Regional. That may change, because PS9 still won't be enough to hard counter VI Whisper. You have to either let the Phantom move last, or shoot first at the same PS.
All of which points to the End of the Joust. Jousting is no longer a solid tactic. Thank FFG this is no longer a game where lining up Civil War Style is effective with some lists.
It doesn't matter. Eventually you have to shoot each other. At that point, the attack / durability numbers matter.
Edit: and the TIE Phantom is cost effective enough that it almost CAN joust straight up. So imagine how powerful it will be now that it can outmaneuver anything in the game as well.
It's certainly interesting when comparing it to an interceptor, since we know the interceptor is a good ship but is not a good jouster point-for-point and survives because of its ability to maneuver while the Phantom is far better in both categories.
That's exactly it right there. The only tradeoff against the Phantom is something that moves after it, and shoots before it. PS 10+ will be a thing. To date I don't think I have seen anyone bring PS11 to any Regional. That may change, because PS9 still won't be enough to hard counter VI Whisper. You have to either let the Phantom move last, or shoot first at the same PS.
Another interesting point to mull over -
If it turns out that the high PS Phantom is (as some of us suspect) over the top - how will FFG deal with it?
I hope they opt to NOT go the route of the "Print X Card to Defeat Y Card" route.
Adding a rebel ship with 4/2/2/2 cloaking and a banked template I would guess is the logical solution.
In the vein of countering maneuverability with maneuverability,
(Admittedly this is relatively minor and situational)
Mobile ships (defined as having either boost and/or barrel-roll or an upgrade that grants (e.g Expert Handling) could use Squad Leader (or any other or "Here buddy, have a free action" effect) could make use of moving out of the way to deny a just decloaked phantom's ability to re-cloak using Advanced Cloaking Device by dening being a target/providing the attack trigger.
Then that "'nobody' way over there at range three nursing that Target Lock", who now has a large field of fire, contibutes his missiles or torpedoes.
My guess it that having versatility in a squad build will win the day more often than not whether a phatom is on the board or not(all else being equal.)
RogueMorgan
Adding a rebel ship with 4/2/2/2 cloaking and a banked template I would guess is the logical solution.
No. If it turns out that Echo dominates the game, the answer is not to balance it by adding another Echo. That will absolutely collapse the play space.
What will be interesting is to see what the rebels get in response to the Phantom in Wave 6.
The Imps can't be the only ones to get a highly evasive and maneuverable ship.
Let the speculation begin.
You mean like the hyper mobile E-Wing, which can boost and barrel roll immediately before clearing the stress with any 1 or 2 maneuver?
The only thing I truly dislike about the Phantom is the Advanced Cloaking Device. That is the card that makes a mess, in my opinion.
As for you, Tusken Raider, I have a great deal of respect for your opinion. Your posts are always well thought out, and whether or not I agree with you I learn from the discussion. Hopefully we can indeed play one another at Regionals or Worlds, I'll buy the first pint at the after action review. :-)
Sounds like a plan. But I warn you in advance that I thoroughly dislike having a drink while the other person is sobbing into theirs.
What will be interesting is to see what the rebels get in response to the Phantom in Wave 6.
The Imps can't be the only ones to get a highly evasive and maneuverable ship.
Let the speculation begin.
You mean like the hyper mobile E-Wing, which can boost and barrel roll immediately before clearing the stress with any 1 or 2 maneuver?
The E-wing jousting efficiency is approximately the same as the TIE Advanced.
I rest my case.
*drops mic*