Yes it's the new best ship, are you kidding? In the hands of a skilled player it hard counters any ship with a Pilot Skill lower than it has, and does it with room for up to 5 other ships on the table to deal with the odd pesky YT-1300 that shows up to ruin the party. Absolutely hard counters them, even more thoroughly than the YTs used to hard-counter Interceptors. I have repeatedly defeated entire 100 point lists using a single Phantom.

In the rock, paper, scissors game it is like ROCK to everything else being paper and scissors. It isn't enough to bring paper, you need to devote your entire list to paper just to have a chance. Otherwise, you are depending on your opponent to screw up because in a remotely even playing field the Phantom dominates everything. Don't start with anecdotes about how you killed it this one time at band camp, of course it isn't invincible. It is however far, far, FAR, FAR!!!!! more effective for it's points than any other ship.

Maybe if they realize how badly they screwed up and ban Advanced Cloaking Device, things will trend back towards balance. As they stand, Echo and Whisper are so much more powerful for their points than anything else in the game it's not even funny.

I'd expect better less alarmist statements from you. The Phantom is far easier to play than it is to play against, meaning that right now its performance is basically meaningless. Players will learn to fight it, to kill it, and it will come to be good, but far from the best. But it also does what it was supposed to do. Stop low PS swarms from eating everything else alive. Packing any number of things completely nueters the Phantom. And interestingly they are the same things that didn't see play in the previous meta because firepower was more important. Stress delivery, Ions, High Pilot Skill. And of course Turrets. Because they will always be good. Funny how we're getting a pair of new three range turret ships.

And then theirs heavy lasers, Ordnance, and every other way to get 4 attack dice. It's like FFG designed it to create build diversity or something.

It's not broken. Just broken if you don't build taking it in to consideration and can't predict where it will go, despite the fact predicting movement in this game, even for a phantom, is not that difficult.

As I said. I expected better than doom and gloom, Ban this, nonsense.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words especially when we disagree with one another. I do feel the need to respond.

The question was whether or not the Phantom is the best ship, and I firmly believe that hands-down and by a very wide margin the Phantom is indeed the best ship. I also went to great pains to state that it is not invincible, but it IS a ship that hard counters at LEAST 80% of the ships in the game. If I bring Echo with VI (whom I believe is by far the more effective), any ship that lacks a range 3 turret or has a PS less than 8 is going to get murdered by me. You state that people need to be able to predict my movements, but they cannot. They cannot, because I don't decide where I am going until after they have moved. In the hands of a skilled player, the maneuver on the dial works to either bring you in close or move you completely out of range depending on which direction you place your 2 bank in. If the ship "guesses right", you decline the exchange. If the ship "guesses wrong", you move in and vaporize them. There is no opportunity for them to guess well against you, unless you make a pretty significant mistake.

The other point I made is that the Phantom is simply too cheap for its abilities. I have repeatedly destroyed lists that should have been able to hurt my Phantom, because I can optimize the other 60 or so points of my list up against whatever is threatening to Echo. High PS is the most effective, so generally I run 5 TIEs. 5 TIEs kill YTs, and block the hell out of any high PS ships that wanted to get a shot on Echo. By putting those TIEs in the few good places available to counter my Phantom, I can guarantee my opponent cannot go there. I have regularly, by which I mean 4 out of 4 times so far, destroyed entire lists using ONLY Echo (as in, I only put the one ship on the table), and her advantage grows exponentially with support that can deny actions and control my opponent's movements. To be sure, those lists were all lists with low PS (except the 4X build that had Wedge/R2, Biggs/Hull, Rookie, Rookie).

I am not trying to brag up some claim that I am some kind of elite player. It just really isn't that hard to do. I'm not forced to out plan or out guess my opponent, I can see exactly where his ships are before moving Echo. And if I get the details a little bit wrong, there is always barrel roll to get that last little bit out of arc/range.

I do believe the Advanced Cloaking Device needs to go. The only reason Phantoms can be abused is that they can use their phenomenal maneuverability every single turn, without spending so much as an action to do so. THAT is why they are abusive, not because they roll 4 green dice when shot at. It would really make very little difference if cloaking added any dice to defense because if you're doing it right your opponent rarely if ever is allowed a shot.

Can the Phantom be beat? Of course it can. Very high PS builds, turrets, action denial swarms, all three of these act as paper to the Phantom rock. My issue is that you cannot just add an anti-Phantom element, because if you do the OTHER 60 points of the Phantom's list can remove it and the Phantom can crush everything else. You are obliged to dedicate your entire list to anti-Phantom tech, because the moment you find yourself with only sub 8 PS non-turret ships on the table a single Phantom can consistently eliminate your entire list. If you rocked 75 points of general list, and all the Phantom player managed to do with 60 points of his list is eliminate the one guy who threatened his Phantom, he is probably going to win anyway. Despite your theoretical 75 to 40 point advantage.

It's not unbeatable in a rock paper scissors game. It's just such a big Rock, it crushes pretty nearly everything up to and including every other rock, all scissors, and even a little bit of paper. You MUST build entire lists to deal with it, or else you will get mauled the first time you run into one.

JMO. I'm guessing that the meta is going to evolve, and you will see several lists doing well including ones that don't have Phantoms. But any lists that don't either include a Phantom or anti-Phantom tech as a centerpiece are going to be at a severe disadvantage. I enjoy having the meta change and evolve. I don't enjoy having a single ship warp the entire meta around it.

Heres the thing.

Anything that counters the Phantom also drops it incredibly fast.

If 35-40 dice on your team go down like a sack of bricks early game you've probably lost. And in a tournament scenario(the only real place balance matters) You will start to see these pop up.

Yes, the Phantom hard counters most ships underneath its point cost. But I in no way believe that is a bad thing. Functionally on an individual level Soontir Fel does the exact same thing. So does the YT. The Outrider will too. Thankfully this isn't a game of individual ships.

The best ship has to handle well against all comers.

If the best gets owned reliably by Horton Salm with vet Instincts and an Ion Cannon it isn't the best.

The big difference between a high PS Phantom and other ships is that it's really easy to avoid your counters in a Phantom. If your counter moves first, it's trivial to reposition to a place where your counter doesn't have a shot or doesn't have a good one.

I find the idea of playing echo terrifying because the low PS makes getting hit easy. I can see any number of viable lists that drop me like a rock, most of which are competitive. Chewie Roark. Swarm tactics passing ps9 with an initiative bid.

Anything else with Roark.

Fettigator.

Han with Vet Instincts.

Doom Shuttles.

Soontir Fel.

A misjudged manuever.

Rebel captive.

Stress delivery.

Ion delivery.

Etc...

That's a whole lotbof counters. To the point I seriously debat playing with Decoy on the Phantom and Vet instincts Vader to counterbuild the counters.

im trying to imagine what that maneuverability would be like with a tie swarm hogging the board

between the number of ships and asteroids, you are going to need to be one hell of a flier to not hit anything and lose your actions

With Cloak and ACD, you'll rarely get blocked. And if you do, after decloaking, as long as you have a single shot, you get that free recloak.

Aminar - I was thinking the same.

People are going to come loaded for Phantom bear.

I'm thinking of just leaving Echo on the outskirts until the furball when they have no choice but to be engaged and can't break off.

Chewie Roark has merit, the question is, how will it fare against other lists that just show up slinging buckets of red dice. I guess it's worth a shot though.

You know, honestly, the best idea might be to show up with a good old fashioned Howl Swarm to the next few tournaments.

People are going to be banking so hard on countering a phantom that they will show up with those "I only have three ships with high PS to kill Echo so please smear my squad across the galaxy with your swarm" lists.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

Aminar - I was thinking the same.

People are going to come loaded for Phantom bear.

I'm thinking of just leaving Echo on the outskirts until the furball when they have no choice but to be engaged and can't break off.

Chewie Roark has merit, the question is, how will it fare against other lists that just show up slinging buckets of red dice. I guess it's worth a shot though.

Chewbacca with Han and 3P0

Roark with Ion Turret

Dagger Squadron with Flechette and Advanced Sensors.

It's a passable list, with the Flechette being an added surprise for Phantoms if you can pull it off.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

I can provide eye-witness testimony of a single occurrence of Echo wiping a 100 point low PS rebel list. Dagger, Dagger, Rookie, Rookie. In that particular game, I don't believe Echo sustained any hull damage.

The game started as a challenge/joke/"haha watch this" until Echo whitewashed the first Rookie and nobody had a chance to return fire.

That is however, an extreme example, and as Aminar has expertly pointed out elsewhere here, is the EXACT list Echo was designed to combat.

The first regionals happen tomorrow. We really do t have that much time to wait and see what tops the tournament.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

Sorry but I can believe a one-off but regularly one ship beating 100 points? Sorry but I find that impossible to believe.

But let's see. If KO is correct then ACD phantoms will dominate tournaments and he'll probably be World Champ by November. I would be very happy to see that because it will obviously be a master class in X-Wing.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

Kinectic Operator finished as one of the top lists in the MN regional and is a well known and respected X-wing player, and I'm sure has no lack of quality opponents.

Somehow I find one of the top players soloing a squad a much less definitive than a "normal" player doing the same.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

Kinectic Operator finished as one of the top lists in the MN regional and is a well known and respected X-wing player, and I'm sure has no lack of quality opponents.

Issue being that the new Metagame hasn't been worked out yet. Phantoms were made to eat specific cookie cutter type builds and reshape the game towards a more varied set of tactics. Until those tactics are used and players have gotten a feel for Phantom movement yes, Phantoms will murder things. But in the end they make more strategies viable, not less. And that is unconditionally a good thing for the game.

That's the most annoying thing in my opinion. The other ships make slight changes to the meta, whereas the Phantom just takes a big, fat dump on it. Hopefully, no one who is super-skilled with the Phantom will show up to the tournament I'm going to tomorrow.

I like shaking up the meta, I'm just not prepared for it.

Issue being that the new Metagame hasn't been worked out yet. Phantoms were made to eat specific cookie cutter type builds and reshape the game towards a more varied set of tactics. Until those tactics are used and players have gotten a feel for Phantom movement yes, Phantoms will murder things. But in the end they make more strategies viable, not less. And that is unconditionally a good thing for the game.

That's the most annoying thing in my opinion. The other ships make slight changes to the meta, whereas the Phantom just takes a big, fat dump on it. Hopefully, no one who is super-skilled with the Phantom will show up to the tournament I'm going to tomorrow.

I like shaking up the meta, I'm just not prepared for it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but even a mildly skilled player who manages to stay off asteroids will be all up in your business with Echo, lol.

Issue being that the new Metagame hasn't been worked out yet. Phantoms were made to eat specific cookie cutter type builds and reshape the game towards a more varied set of tactics. Until those tactics are used and players have gotten a feel for Phantom movement yes, Phantoms will murder things. But in the end they make more strategies viable, not less. And that is unconditionally a good thing for the game.

That's the most annoying thing in my opinion. The other ships make slight changes to the meta, whereas the Phantom just takes a big, fat dump on it. Hopefully, no one who is super-skilled with the Phantom will show up to the tournament I'm going to tomorrow.

I like shaking up the meta, I'm just not prepared for it.

Take a bunch of ships and PEW-PEW.

4 Rookie X-Wings beat Soontir Fel most of the time. That's sad. Now those 4 Rookie X-Wings aren't a viable fleet. Yes, the meta just got thrown into a blender, but thank god for that. It was getting annoying that so little was needed to build a good squad. I tied for first with 4 other people at a tournament with 2 ties, a lambda, Turr Phennir, and a bomber. I had no strategy. I had no cohesion. I just fit 5 ships on a list and shot things. Now I have to think. Provide counters, and balance that with firepower and durability.

Someone who says they regularly beat 100 points with only one ship needs to either get better opponents or a reality check. I cannot for a moment imagine that FFG would have released a ship with such an extraordinary mechanic without playtesting it again and again and again. Without Advanced Cloaking Device the high PS phantoms wouldn't stand much of a chance. There are so many ways to beat Echo and Whisper even with ACD.

Every time a new wave comes out people moan about something saying it's broken, overpowered and that FFG should recant. Every time. It's really dull.

If the Phantom with Advance Cloaking Device is broken strong then we can expect every tournament since their release to be won by a Phantom list. Who's willing to put down money that that will definitely happen?

Kinectic Operator finished as one of the top lists in the MN regional and is a well known and respected X-wing player, and I'm sure has no lack of quality opponents.

Somehow I find one of the top players soloing a squad a much less definitive than a "normal" player doing the same.

Moreover, though, my main point was that while KO may end up being wrong, he's had both experience and is a good player, and most good players are good because they are both good pilots and have a good understanding of the meta, something the post I responded to originally clearly doesn't respect.

Tusken, Aminar -

I apologize if I came off badly. I wasn't trying to make this an ePeen contest. I also understand that there are counters to Phantoms. My point was only this:

There is a certain amount of rock, paper, scissors in X-Wing, just like any other well balanced game. Before, we had Interceptors countered by Falcons countered by Swarms, etc. Previously, if you found yourself on the wrong end of a matchup you could through good play hope to pull out a victory, especially if you could even the odds early in the game.

The Phantom is a whole new level of Rock. While there are counters to it, ships that are vulnerable to the Phantom (anyone less than PS 8 and lacking a Range 3 turret, which is the vast majority of ships) are so completely vulnerable that a single Phantom can consistently defeat entire squads. If you show up to a tournament with a squad that lacks anti-Phantom tech (for example, Jim Blakely's Rebel Swarm^TM) and meet a Phantom, you are in enormous trouble unless your opponent makes a very large mistake. When you reach top tables, the odds of your opponent handing you the game that way are vanishingly small.

Again, I don't want to overstate my case. The Phantom is hardly unbeatable, and counters do exist. My point is that it is so insanely effective against everything else, that you NEED anti-Phantom tech to win, and you need a quite a bit of it. No other single ship so completely dominates meta choices, because no other single ship is so powerful against ships that are vulnerable to it.

The meta will continue to evolve and change post Wave 4, so I'm not having a conniption or saying the game is broken beyond repair. I'm sure as things develop other ships and lists will emerge. But right now, today, the Phantom is by orders of magnitude the single most influential ship in the new meta.

Again, I don't want to overstate my case. The Phantom is hardly unbeatable, and counters do exist. My point is that it is so insanely effective against everything else, that you NEED anti-Phantom tech to win, and you need a quite a bit of it. No other single ship so completely dominates meta choices, because no other single ship is so powerful against ships that are vulnerable to it.

Or, you know, anti-Phantom flying. An XXBB list that starts of on both sides of their table end eliminates a Phantom's ability to flank the entire squadron. Then you maneuver so you pin the Phantom, rejoin the squadron and continue hammering the opponent's other craft, having now eliminated well over a third of his list.

I think the best thing about the Phantom is that not everyone will be playing the Phantom. I personally think it has too many weaknesses (high PS, turrets, stress, flanking) to be the best ship. But, you have to both be able to beat a Phantom AND beat other things (and, I look forward to seeing if a phantom hate squad can do well vs. other squads). I do not think it is the best ship, but I do think it will change the game quite a bit (like the Falcon, B-Wing, etc. have done in the past). And, I do think it is one a great ship like some of the others mentioned above (I just cannot singe it out as the best ship).

If you split a XXBB list in half, I will send everyone to one side and thundercrush that half just like I would have before the Phantom, because none of those ships are fast enough to adjust and come across before I get there. Just saying. :-)

Look, I certainly could be wrong. I hope I am wrong, and the meta will shake out regardless of my opinion. If so, you are welcome to say "I told you so" and I will cheerfully eat my well-deserved humble pie. But I play against a bunch of guys every Tuesday who consistently cover half of the top 8 at every tournament we go to, and who include multiple Top 16 and Top 8 finishers at Worlds. These guys are good, very good, and ALL of us are struggling to deal with Phantoms. Lists that lack a large amount of anti-Phantom tech are being crushed, regularly, by any list with a single Phantom in them.

Tusken, Aminar -

I apologize if I came off badly. I wasn't trying to make this an ePeen contest. I also understand that there are counters to Phantoms. My point was only this:

There is a certain amount of rock, paper, scissors in X-Wing, just like any other well balanced game. Before, we had Interceptors countered by Falcons countered by Swarms, etc. Previously, if you found yourself on the wrong end of a matchup you could through good play hope to pull out a victory, especially if you could even the odds early in the game.

The Phantom is a whole new level of Rock. While there are counters to it, ships that are vulnerable to the Phantom (anyone less than PS 8 and lacking a Range 3 turret, which is the vast majority of ships) are so completely vulnerable that a single Phantom can consistently defeat entire squads. If you show up to a tournament with a squad that lacks anti-Phantom tech (for example, Jim Blakely's Rebel Swarm^TM) and meet a Phantom, you are in enormous trouble unless your opponent makes a very large mistake. When you reach top tables, the odds of your opponent handing you the game that way are vanishingly small.

Again, I don't want to overstate my case. The Phantom is hardly unbeatable, and counters do exist. My point is that it is so insanely effective against everything else, that you NEED anti-Phantom tech to win, and you need a quite a bit of it. No other single ship so completely dominates meta choices, because no other single ship is so powerful against ships that are vulnerable to it.

The meta will continue to evolve and change post Wave 4, so I'm not having a conniption or saying the game is broken beyond repair. I'm sure as things develop other ships and lists will emerge. But right now, today, the Phantom is by orders of magnitude the single most influential ship in the new meta.

I just think that's a good thing. Anti-Phantom tech basically includes everything that sucked before except for the Advanced. Y-Wings, hawks, Stress delivery, Ions, Named Pilots. They'e all gotten better while the base level pilots have gotten worse.

Where we don't see eye to eye is on the "best ship" label. The Phantom is a big and risky investment. A single bad dice roll won't murder you like with Interceptors, but it can leave you hurting. It has too many 100% counters to be the best ship. There are lists that are good and will eat it alive.

In addition, Phantom verse Phantom has a series of issues that make it... Tough to build for.

To me there is one ship that has often been talked about but has never really shown up. A heavy Phantom meta would create the perfect environment for ...................The Fettigator !!

Boba Fett + Heavy Laser Cannon + Veteran Instincts + Navigator (50)

yes it's 50 points but it will eat all the phantoms for lunch as a hard counter. you still have half the squad to play with and you have a great counter in place. oh your decloaking that way, no problem. you could even effectively stay out of it's arch while it tries to find a target to recloak. lets give the Phantom a target.

Kath Scarlet + Proton Bombs + Marksmanship + Rebel Captive (49)

yup at 99 points this build would be a nightmare for all Phantoms. While Boba darts around with you wherever you go your only shot leaves you stressed and the that advanced cloaking device worthless. Dont get to close to the lady in red as she has a gift for you!

Sure... And vs every other list imaginable, your fett+Kath list would get demolished. Sorry but 2 BH list is not going to be scaring anyone. Youre building an entire 100 pt list to stop 1 ship. Yet there is 60+ pts left in the phantom list to contribute.

2 BHs is not going to be the phantom killer.

Again, I don't want to overstate my case. The Phantom is hardly unbeatable, and counters do exist. My point is that it is so insanely effective against everything else, that you NEED anti-Phantom tech to win, and you need a quite a bit of it. No other single ship so completely dominates meta choices, because no other single ship is so powerful against ships that are vulnerable to it.

Or, you know, anti-Phantom flying. An XXBB list that starts of on both sides of their table end eliminates a Phantom's ability to flank the entire squadron. Then you maneuver so you pin the Phantom, rejoin the squadron and continue hammering the opponent's other craft, having now eliminated well over a third of his list.

I am seriously not trying to be sarcastic or rude.

PLEASE do this if you ever face me at a tournament. I will obliterate the first pair of your ships using the Phantom as a jouster and then hunt down your other two.

I'm not sure who started the Thatch Weave mentality on this forum, but it is a strategy that does not work effectively in this game on the scale you are describing.

At a spread of maybe 2-3 ship bases, it MIGHT work on an opponent of low skill level. Otherwise, what you are providing me is a potentially 4-5 v 2 on one side of the board. By the time your "weave" completes, you will be down two ships.

There's lots of chest puffery and defending people etc. here. I don't need to provide credentials or statistics of who I play with or where I rank. Maybe people in the UK adapted to the phantom meta faster than those in other areas of the world. As I said, time will tell in tournaments and anyone who can regularly beat 100 points with one ship deserves to be centre-stage. I want to see it.

Someone posted above that the old meta was point-pew pew but now they have to think. This game is becoming far more about thinking and positioning. The phantom is great for the game. It's not OP, it's not broken, it's a really, really clever direction for the game.

KO and I have had a number of other very productive conversations in other places and I for one can't wait to play him in a Regional or at the Worlds now that I've moved to the US to teach you Yanks a thing or two!

What will be interesting is to see what the rebels get in response to the Phantom in Wave 6.

The Imps can't be the only ones to get a highly evasive and maneuverable ship.

Let the speculation begin.