Another thought. Rebel Captive basically murders Phantoms. Force them to shoot your captive ship. Then when they can't recloak Murder them the following turn.

Does a ship have to shoot if it has a shot?

You won't be able to recloak with ACD as you'll be stressed.

The only reason it "requires" a large base to counter is because of fett's ability. Some of the named interceptors could work too.

Soontir Fel will be a great Phantom chaser with an initiative bid against Whisper lists.

So

Boba Fett Vet instincts Navigator. Nice and simple.

Whisper Vet instincts and Advanced Cloaking

Scimitar Squadron w/ two Flechette Torpedos.

Not the greatest list ever, but it looks fun. I might try it at my next tournament as a "I know the Phantoms are coming" list.

What if you took VI off fett, down grade Whisper to echo and put expert handling on fett for the extra mobility?

Does a ship have to shoot if it has a shot?

Of course not.

But you still have 99 pts for possible initiative you shoot before echo and maybe Whisper anyway

Yes the PS 10 is going to matter as Whisper is more than likely going to be at 9. You'll lose the advantage to see where they go and adjust.

But you still have 99 pts for possible initiative you shoot before echo and maybe Whisper anyway

If I really wanted better positioning I'd turn the Scimitar to Night beast and Engine Upgrade fett.

Ok

Keep VI.

Keep echo

Put seismic charge on fett just to mess with your opponent

It is much more fun to think of the ways to kill the Phantom than fear it

Ok

Keep VI.

Keep echo

Put seismic charge on fett just to mess with your opponent

Come to think of it, going the night beast Engine Upgrade Route lets me put Rebel Captive on Echo... Hmmm. I like it. Evil grin.

Fight fire with fire

As the saying goes

I haven't used Whisper yet.

As soon as I flew echo at the alpha tournament, I just loved it.

I haven't been able to break away from her yet.

Been meaning to try Whisper, but that bank decloak is nuts

Only ship to can just about fly backwards, or not really move at all without getting stress

I haven't used Whisper yet.

As soon as I flew echo at the alpha tournament, I just loved it.

I haven't been able to break away from her yet.

Been meaning to try Whisper, but that bank decloak is nuts

Only ship to can just about fly backwards, or not really move at all without getting stress

Yes it's the new best ship, are you kidding? In the hands of a skilled player it hard counters any ship with a Pilot Skill lower than it has, and does it with room for up to 5 other ships on the table to deal with the odd pesky YT-1300 that shows up to ruin the party. Absolutely hard counters them, even more thoroughly than the YTs used to hard-counter Interceptors. I have repeatedly defeated entire 100 point lists using a single Phantom.

In the rock, paper, scissors game it is like ROCK to everything else being paper and scissors. It isn't enough to bring paper, you need to devote your entire list to paper just to have a chance. Otherwise, you are depending on your opponent to screw up because in a remotely even playing field the Phantom dominates everything. Don't start with anecdotes about how you killed it this one time at band camp, of course it isn't invincible. It is however far, far, FAR, FAR!!!!! more effective for it's points than any other ship.

Maybe if they realize how badly they screwed up and ban Advanced Cloaking Device, things will trend back towards balance. As they stand, Echo and Whisper are so much more powerful for their points than anything else in the game it's not even funny.

I'd expect better less alarmist statements from you. The Phantom is far easier to play than it is to play against, meaning that right now its performance is basically meaningless. Players will learn to fight it, to kill it, and it will come to be good, but far from the best. But it also does what it was supposed to do. Stop low PS swarms from eating everything else alive. Packing any number of things completely nueters the Phantom. And interestingly they are the same things that didn't see play in the previous meta because firepower was more important. Stress delivery, Ions, High Pilot Skill. And of course Turrets. Because they will always be good. Funny how we're getting a pair of new three range turret ships.

And then theirs heavy lasers, Ordnance, and every other way to get 4 attack dice. It's like FFG designed it to create build diversity or something.

It's not broken. Just broken if you don't build taking it in to consideration and can't predict where it will go, despite the fact predicting movement in this game, even for a phantom, is not that difficult.

As I said. I expected better than doom and gloom, Ban this, nonsense.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words especially when we disagree with one another. I do feel the need to respond.

The question was whether or not the Phantom is the best ship, and I firmly believe that hands-down and by a very wide margin the Phantom is indeed the best ship. I also went to great pains to state that it is not invincible, but it IS a ship that hard counters at LEAST 80% of the ships in the game. If I bring Echo with VI (whom I believe is by far the more effective), any ship that lacks a range 3 turret or has a PS less than 8 is going to get murdered by me. You state that people need to be able to predict my movements, but they cannot. They cannot, because I don't decide where I am going until after they have moved. In the hands of a skilled player, the maneuver on the dial works to either bring you in close or move you completely out of range depending on which direction you place your 2 bank in. If the ship "guesses right", you decline the exchange. If the ship "guesses wrong", you move in and vaporize them. There is no opportunity for them to guess well against you, unless you make a pretty significant mistake.

The other point I made is that the Phantom is simply too cheap for its abilities. I have repeatedly destroyed lists that should have been able to hurt my Phantom, because I can optimize the other 60 or so points of my list up against whatever is threatening to Echo. High PS is the most effective, so generally I run 5 TIEs. 5 TIEs kill YTs, and block the hell out of any high PS ships that wanted to get a shot on Echo. By putting those TIEs in the few good places available to counter my Phantom, I can guarantee my opponent cannot go there. I have regularly, by which I mean 4 out of 4 times so far, destroyed entire lists using ONLY Echo (as in, I only put the one ship on the table), and her advantage grows exponentially with support that can deny actions and control my opponent's movements. To be sure, those lists were all lists with low PS (except the 4X build that had Wedge/R2, Biggs/Hull, Rookie, Rookie).

I am not trying to brag up some claim that I am some kind of elite player. It just really isn't that hard to do. I'm not forced to out plan or out guess my opponent, I can see exactly where his ships are before moving Echo. And if I get the details a little bit wrong, there is always barrel roll to get that last little bit out of arc/range.

I do believe the Advanced Cloaking Device needs to go. The only reason Phantoms can be abused is that they can use their phenomenal maneuverability every single turn, without spending so much as an action to do so. THAT is why they are abusive, not because they roll 4 green dice when shot at. It would really make very little difference if cloaking added any dice to defense because if you're doing it right your opponent rarely if ever is allowed a shot.

Can the Phantom be beat? Of course it can. Very high PS builds, turrets, action denial swarms, all three of these act as paper to the Phantom rock. My issue is that you cannot just add an anti-Phantom element, because if you do the OTHER 60 points of the Phantom's list can remove it and the Phantom can crush everything else. You are obliged to dedicate your entire list to anti-Phantom tech, because the moment you find yourself with only sub 8 PS non-turret ships on the table a single Phantom can consistently eliminate your entire list. If you rocked 75 points of general list, and all the Phantom player managed to do with 60 points of his list is eliminate the one guy who threatened his Phantom, he is probably going to win anyway. Despite your theoretical 75 to 40 point advantage.

It's not unbeatable in a rock paper scissors game. It's just such a big Rock, it crushes pretty nearly everything up to and including every other rock, all scissors, and even a little bit of paper. You MUST build entire lists to deal with it, or else you will get mauled the first time you run into one.

JMO. I'm guessing that the meta is going to evolve, and you will see several lists doing well including ones that don't have Phantoms. But any lists that don't either include a Phantom or anti-Phantom tech as a centerpiece are going to be at a severe disadvantage. I enjoy having the meta change and evolve. I don't enjoy having a single ship warp the entire meta around it.

Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.

Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.

Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.

Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.

Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.

Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.

Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.

Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.

If your decloak takes you into a rock or ship, it does not happen as it follows the rules for a barrel roll. You can try to decloak in a different direction or not decloak at all at that point.

Two formations, placed far apart, flying at each other, each formation doing a Thach weave maneuver. It's not perfect, and you won't be able to put too much fire on anything in a single turn, but the phantom is squishy and you can pot shot the rest of the opponent's squad until the phantom drops and you can convert to a more standard strategy.

I prefer the legendary Underwater Basket Weave maneuver myself.

It would be cool (but also a lot of effort, regrettably) if someone worked up a diagram or a series of photos of physical game pieces to illustrate how the thatch weave is supposed to counter the Phantom.

Personally, I can't wrap my head around it. I try to visualize the scenario, and just see the Phantom sitting safely in range 3 of the wingman, potentially triggering Advanced Cloaking Device after blasting the crap out of the baiting member of the Weave maneuver, with the other members of the Phantom' squad waiting around to clean up on the wingman/baiter (who were prevented from effectively focus firing due to the weave maneuver).

It seems like a tactic that would work nicely in a "2 ships versus 1 Phantom" minigame, but wouldn't be that effective in an actual, full-squad match.

I prefer the legendary Underwater Basket Weave maneuver myself.

I have a merit badge in that!

Looks like they're still accepting applications for the summer class! Diploma and everything, screw X wing, I just found a real hobby!

https://recreation.ucsd.edu/registration/index.php?code=54369&user_area=3&group

Yes it's the new best ship, are you kidding? In the hands of a skilled player it hard counters any ship with a Pilot Skill lower than it has, and does it with room for up to 5 other ships on the table to deal with the odd pesky YT-1300 that shows up to ruin the party. Absolutely hard counters them, even more thoroughly than the YTs used to hard-counter Interceptors. I have repeatedly defeated entire 100 point lists using a single Phantom.

In the rock, paper, scissors game it is like ROCK to everything else being paper and scissors. It isn't enough to bring paper, you need to devote your entire list to paper just to have a chance. Otherwise, you are depending on your opponent to screw up because in a remotely even playing field the Phantom dominates everything. Don't start with anecdotes about how you killed it this one time at band camp, of course it isn't invincible. It is however far, far, FAR, FAR!!!!! more effective for it's points than any other ship.

Maybe if they realize how badly they screwed up and ban Advanced Cloaking Device, things will trend back towards balance. As they stand, Echo and Whisper are so much more powerful for their points than anything else in the game it's not even funny.

I'd expect better less alarmist statements from you. The Phantom is far easier to play than it is to play against, meaning that right now its performance is basically meaningless. Players will learn to fight it, to kill it, and it will come to be good, but far from the best. But it also does what it was supposed to do. Stop low PS swarms from eating everything else alive. Packing any number of things completely nueters the Phantom. And interestingly they are the same things that didn't see play in the previous meta because firepower was more important. Stress delivery, Ions, High Pilot Skill. And of course Turrets. Because they will always be good. Funny how we're getting a pair of new three range turret ships.

And then theirs heavy lasers, Ordnance, and every other way to get 4 attack dice. It's like FFG designed it to create build diversity or something.

It's not broken. Just broken if you don't build taking it in to consideration and can't predict where it will go, despite the fact predicting movement in this game, even for a phantom, is not that difficult.

As I said. I expected better than doom and gloom, Ban this, nonsense.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words especially when we disagree with one another. I do feel the need to respond.

The question was whether or not the Phantom is the best ship, and I firmly believe that hands-down and by a very wide margin the Phantom is indeed the best ship. I also went to great pains to state that it is not invincible, but it IS a ship that hard counters at LEAST 80% of the ships in the game. If I bring Echo with VI (whom I believe is by far the more effective), any ship that lacks a range 3 turret or has a PS less than 8 is going to get murdered by me. You state that people need to be able to predict my movements, but they cannot. They cannot, because I don't decide where I am going until after they have moved. In the hands of a skilled player, the maneuver on the dial works to either bring you in close or move you completely out of range depending on which direction you place your 2 bank in. If the ship "guesses right", you decline the exchange. If the ship "guesses wrong", you move in and vaporize them. There is no opportunity for them to guess well against you, unless you make a pretty significant mistake.

The other point I made is that the Phantom is simply too cheap for its abilities. I have repeatedly destroyed lists that should have been able to hurt my Phantom, because I can optimize the other 60 or so points of my list up against whatever is threatening to Echo. High PS is the most effective, so generally I run 5 TIEs. 5 TIEs kill YTs, and block the hell out of any high PS ships that wanted to get a shot on Echo. By putting those TIEs in the few good places available to counter my Phantom, I can guarantee my opponent cannot go there. I have regularly, by which I mean 4 out of 4 times so far, destroyed entire lists using ONLY Echo (as in, I only put the one ship on the table), and her advantage grows exponentially with support that can deny actions and control my opponent's movements. To be sure, those lists were all lists with low PS (except the 4X build that had Wedge/R2, Biggs/Hull, Rookie, Rookie).

I am not trying to brag up some claim that I am some kind of elite player. It just really isn't that hard to do. I'm not forced to out plan or out guess my opponent, I can see exactly where his ships are before moving Echo. And if I get the details a little bit wrong, there is always barrel roll to get that last little bit out of arc/range.

I do believe the Advanced Cloaking Device needs to go. The only reason Phantoms can be abused is that they can use their phenomenal maneuverability every single turn, without spending so much as an action to do so. THAT is why they are abusive, not because they roll 4 green dice when shot at. It would really make very little difference if cloaking added any dice to defense because if you're doing it right your opponent rarely if ever is allowed a shot.

Can the Phantom be beat? Of course it can. Very high PS builds, turrets, action denial swarms, all three of these act as paper to the Phantom rock. My issue is that you cannot just add an anti-Phantom element, because if you do the OTHER 60 points of the Phantom's list can remove it and the Phantom can crush everything else. You are obliged to dedicate your entire list to anti-Phantom tech, because the moment you find yourself with only sub 8 PS non-turret ships on the table a single Phantom can consistently eliminate your entire list. If you rocked 75 points of general list, and all the Phantom player managed to do with 60 points of his list is eliminate the one guy who threatened his Phantom, he is probably going to win anyway. Despite your theoretical 75 to 40 point advantage.

It's not unbeatable in a rock paper scissors game. It's just such a big Rock, it crushes pretty nearly everything up to and including every other rock, all scissors, and even a little bit of paper. You MUST build entire lists to deal with it, or else you will get mauled the first time you run into one.

JMO. I'm guessing that the meta is going to evolve, and you will see several lists doing well including ones that don't have Phantoms. But any lists that don't either include a Phantom or anti-Phantom tech as a centerpiece are going to be at a severe disadvantage. I enjoy having the meta change and evolve. I don't enjoy having a single ship warp the entire meta around it.

Anything that counters the Phantom also drops it incredibly fast.

If 35-40 dice on your team go down like a sack of bricks early game you've probably lost. And in a tournament scenario(the only real place balance matters) You will start to see these pop up.

Yes, the Phantom hard counters most ships underneath its point cost. But I in no way believe that is a bad thing. Functionally on an individual level Soontir Fel does the exact same thing. So does the YT. The Outrider will too. Thankfully this isn't a game of individual ships.

The best ship has to handle well against all comers.

If the best gets owned reliably by Horton Salm with vet Instincts and an Ion Cannon it isn't the best.

Just went 1-2 with a loaded Echo, a Doomshuttle, Lorrir and an Academy TIE.

Echo's going to take some work. First game, she was fine. Second game, I crashed into a rock on my first move and into the Lambda on the second. There was no third move.

Third game, she again managed to crash herself into a rock on decloaking, at range 1 of two Defenders and another Echo.

Rocks seem to be her biggest nemesis.

If your decloak takes you into a rock or ship, it does not happen as it follows the rules for a barrel roll. You can try to decloak in a different direction or not decloak at all at that point.

And from there, the dial revealed another 2-bank to the left, which put her straight into a rock because I mis-estimated where she'd be when she decloaked.

The falcon can bite me. Echos two wing men are a doom shuttle and Recce hunter.

I'm guessing Doom shuttle is a shuttle with Vader, but Recce hunger?

The falcon can bite me. Echos two wing men are a doom shuttle and Recce hunter.

I'm guessing Doom shuttle is a shuttle with Vader, but Recce hunger?

Yes it's the new best ship, are you kidding? In the hands of a skilled player it hard counters any ship with a Pilot Skill lower than it has, and does it with room for up to 5 other ships on the table to deal with the odd pesky YT-1300 that shows up to ruin the party. Absolutely hard counters them, even more thoroughly than the YTs used to hard-counter Interceptors. I have repeatedly defeated entire 100 point lists using a single Phantom.

In the rock, paper, scissors game it is like ROCK to everything else being paper and scissors. It isn't enough to bring paper, you need to devote your entire list to paper just to have a chance. Otherwise, you are depending on your opponent to screw up because in a remotely even playing field the Phantom dominates everything. Don't start with anecdotes about how you killed it this one time at band camp, of course it isn't invincible. It is however far, far, FAR, FAR!!!!! more effective for it's points than any other ship.

Maybe if they realize how badly they screwed up and ban Advanced Cloaking Device, things will trend back towards balance. As they stand, Echo and Whisper are so much more powerful for their points than anything else in the game it's not even funny.

I'd expect better less alarmist statements from you. The Phantom is far easier to play than it is to play against, meaning that right now its performance is basically meaningless. Players will learn to fight it, to kill it, and it will come to be good, but far from the best. But it also does what it was supposed to do. Stop low PS swarms from eating everything else alive. Packing any number of things completely nueters the Phantom. And interestingly they are the same things that didn't see play in the previous meta because firepower was more important. Stress delivery, Ions, High Pilot Skill. And of course Turrets. Because they will always be good. Funny how we're getting a pair of new three range turret ships.

And then theirs heavy lasers, Ordnance, and every other way to get 4 attack dice. It's like FFG designed it to create build diversity or something.

It's not broken. Just broken if you don't build taking it in to consideration and can't predict where it will go, despite the fact predicting movement in this game, even for a phantom, is not that difficult.

As I said. I expected better than doom and gloom, Ban this, nonsense.

Thank you, I appreciate your kind words especially when we disagree with one another. I do feel the need to respond.

The question was whether or not the Phantom is the best ship, and I firmly believe that hands-down and by a very wide margin the Phantom is indeed the best ship. I also went to great pains to state that it is not invincible, but it IS a ship that hard counters at LEAST 80% of the ships in the game. If I bring Echo with VI (whom I believe is by far the more effective), any ship that lacks a range 3 turret or has a PS less than 8 is going to get murdered by me. You state that people need to be able to predict my movements, but they cannot. They cannot, because I don't decide where I am going until after they have moved. In the hands of a skilled player, the maneuver on the dial works to either bring you in close or move you completely out of range depending on which direction you place your 2 bank in. If the ship "guesses right", you decline the exchange. If the ship "guesses wrong", you move in and vaporize them. There is no opportunity for them to guess well against you, unless you make a pretty significant mistake.

The other point I made is that the Phantom is simply too cheap for its abilities. I have repeatedly destroyed lists that should have been able to hurt my Phantom, because I can optimize the other 60 or so points of my list up against whatever is threatening to Echo. High PS is the most effective, so generally I run 5 TIEs. 5 TIEs kill YTs, and block the hell out of any high PS ships that wanted to get a shot on Echo. By putting those TIEs in the few good places available to counter my Phantom, I can guarantee my opponent cannot go there. I have regularly, by which I mean 4 out of 4 times so far, destroyed entire lists using ONLY Echo (as in, I only put the one ship on the table), and her advantage grows exponentially with support that can deny actions and control my opponent's movements. To be sure, those lists were all lists with low PS (except the 4X build that had Wedge/R2, Biggs/Hull, Rookie, Rookie).

I am not trying to brag up some claim that I am some kind of elite player. It just really isn't that hard to do. I'm not forced to out plan or out guess my opponent, I can see exactly where his ships are before moving Echo. And if I get the details a little bit wrong, there is always barrel roll to get that last little bit out of arc/range.

I do believe the Advanced Cloaking Device needs to go. The only reason Phantoms can be abused is that they can use their phenomenal maneuverability every single turn, without spending so much as an action to do so. THAT is why they are abusive, not because they roll 4 green dice when shot at. It would really make very little difference if cloaking added any dice to defense because if you're doing it right your opponent rarely if ever is allowed a shot.

Can the Phantom be beat? Of course it can. Very high PS builds, turrets, action denial swarms, all three of these act as paper to the Phantom rock. My issue is that you cannot just add an anti-Phantom element, because if you do the OTHER 60 points of the Phantom's list can remove it and the Phantom can crush everything else. You are obliged to dedicate your entire list to anti-Phantom tech, because the moment you find yourself with only sub 8 PS non-turret ships on the table a single Phantom can consistently eliminate your entire list. If you rocked 75 points of general list, and all the Phantom player managed to do with 60 points of his list is eliminate the one guy who threatened his Phantom, he is probably going to win anyway. Despite your theoretical 75 to 40 point advantage.

It's not unbeatable in a rock paper scissors game. It's just such a big Rock, it crushes pretty nearly everything up to and including every other rock, all scissors, and even a little bit of paper. You MUST build entire lists to deal with it, or else you will get mauled the first time you run into one.

JMO. I'm guessing that the meta is going to evolve, and you will see several lists doing well including ones that don't have Phantoms. But any lists that don't either include a Phantom or anti-Phantom tech as a centerpiece are going to be at a severe disadvantage. I enjoy having the meta change and evolve. I don't enjoy having a single ship warp the entire meta around it.

Heres the thing.

Anything that counters the Phantom also drops it incredibly fast.

If 35-40 dice on your team go down like a sack of bricks early game you've probably lost. And in a tournament scenario(the only real place balance matters) You will start to see these pop up.

Yes, the Phantom hard counters most ships underneath its point cost. But I in no way believe that is a bad thing. Functionally on an individual level Soontir Fel does the exact same thing. So does the YT. The Outrider will too. Thankfully this isn't a game of individual ships.

The best ship has to handle well against all comers.

If the best gets owned reliably by Horton Salm with vet Instincts and an Ion Cannon it isn't the best.

The big difference between a high PS Phantom and other ships is that it's really easy to avoid your counters in a Phantom. If your counter moves first, it's trivial to reposition to a place where your counter doesn't have a shot or doesn't have a good one.

I will be very interested to see how the tone of this forum changes regarding the Phantom in about 3-4 weeks.

I have upwards of 40 games played with and against them, and those of you spouting "all it takes is one of these hard counters" or "just bring a falcon" are in for a big surprise.

I honestly wonder if half of the people saying those or similar things have even sat at a table where a Phantom was in play yet.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. The next month will bear out the truth of the Phantom's status, whether balanced or broken. Either way, I'm interested to see where it goes.