I really don't see the appeal of this. You're only saving one point compared to a basic TIE interceptor with better guns. Is PS 4 really that much of a priority?

Well, so far the biggest pro has been more psychological. See, my opponents know how deadly interceptors are (and that's not even saying anything about how i fly them), so they will go for an interceptor from the start. However, those one or two little BSTs just tend to be ignored. They're not flashy or dangerous looking, so they'll stick around for 2/3 of a match before anyone even bothers taking a shot at them. Even when I've lost my more champion-type pilots, the one or two Black Squadron guys get it done. Sure, they may not go around one-shotting everyone out of the sky, but they consistently deliver damage over most rounds and last long enough to keep the party going. Four of the five matches I've used this in, my opponent has said some variation of "you know, I should have killed that thing early."

I really don't see the appeal of this. You're only saving one point compared to a basic TIE interceptor with better guns. Is PS 4 really that much of a priority?

Yes. Alpha squadrons that take a action to position do pretty much the same damage as Predatory BSP's and shoot much later. Countering the PS of most generics is a huge boon for the BSP as well.

Also:

1. Barrel Roll/Boost type actions are way, way more valuable when on a pilot moving later in the turn, because you know where the edges of arcs of fire are.
2. Remember that you get the full benefit of Predator against PS1 and PS2 generics, essentially turning it into a permenant, action-free target lock.

I'm currently testing:

Darth Vader with Proton Rockets - 32

4x Black squadron with Predator - @17 = 68

Mainly to try out the advance, but also because this gives a great first engagement with focus fire

Remember that you get the full benefit of Predator against PS1 and PS2 generics, essentially turning it into a permenant, action-free target lock.

But a 2-dice gun with focus + TL is worse than a 3-dice gun with focus. Your investment in predator is entirely used up by trying to make up for some of the TIE fighter's lack of damage compared to the interceptor, and you still fall short in most situations.

Well, so far the biggest pro has been more psychological. See, my opponents know how deadly interceptors are (and that's not even saying anything about how i fly them), so they will go for an interceptor from the start. However, those one or two little BSTs just tend to be ignored. They're not flashy or dangerous looking, so they'll stick around for 2/3 of a match before anyone even bothers taking a shot at them. Even when I've lost my more champion-type pilots, the one or two Black Squadron guys get it done. Sure, they may not go around one-shotting everyone out of the sky, but they consistently deliver damage over most rounds and last long enough to keep the party going. Four of the five matches I've used this in, my opponent has said some variation of "you know, I should have killed that thing early."

I'm having trouble finding the words to express how utterly wrong this is. You NEVER take a weak ship and hope that your opponent will be stupid, write it off as a threat, and focus on killing something else. It's not like your opponent is going to decline to shoot at all because nothing is scary enough, any shots not going into one ship are just killing someone else instead. Meanwhile, since you weakened your ship to make it less scary, your list as a whole is less powerful. The much better approach is to make everything scary (whether individually, or by spamming cheap efficient options) and present your opponent with so many threats that it doesn't matter which one they go after first, they can't kill them all.

Yes. Alpha squadrons that take a action to position do pretty much the same damage as Predatory BSP's and shoot much later. Countering the PS of most generics is a huge boon for the BSP as well.

But that's assuming both ships spend their action on movement. If both ships spend their action on offense or defense the alpha will outgun the predator BSP. And if movement actions are so important then why aren't you flying PTL interceptors, or just interceptors in general? I find it hard to believe that there are many lists/players where a barrel roll is the default choice, but not having a boost action available isn't a problem at all.

So, what you're really doing is trading firepower for PS. Which goes back to the original question: is a PS 4 bid so important that you're willing to make a big sacrifice in firepower to get it? PS 4 works for BBXX and similar lists because you're not sacrificing firepower for that PS and usually end up losing a fairly minor torp/droid/etc instead compared to the PS 2 version, you can't say the same for the predator BSP list.

I'm having trouble finding the words to express how utterly wrong this is. You NEVER take a weak ship and hope that your opponent will be stupid, write it off as a threat, and focus on killing something else. It's not like your opponent is going to decline to shoot at all because nothing is scary enough, any shots not going into one ship are just killing someone else instead. Meanwhile, since you weakened your ship to make it less scary, your list as a whole is less powerful. The much better approach is to make everything scary (whether individually, or by spamming cheap efficient options) and present your opponent with so many threats that it doesn't matter which one they go after first, they can't kill them all.

Well, for one it's obviously NOT wrong if I keep winning. Secondly, they aren't declining to shoot at things, they're firing at other things (and usually missing). Seriously, this ship is only 17 points. And I fail to see how I've 'weakened' anything.

As for your last line, that's entirely the point. This ship is scary, it is effective, and they do go after what they can. It's just that this ship is scary and deceptive. And I play against good opponents who know that "go after everything at once" is a one way ticket to Failtown.

Seriously man… are you even for real? Look at what you've just posted. Write it off as weak, go after something else… I have to hope for this? I don't have to hope for anything. If they leave it alone, then it just keeps plugging away doing damage. If they focus it or spend shots trying to kill it, then they've just focused down a PS 4 TIE Fighter. That's what you want to happen.

Remember that you get the full benefit of Predator against PS1 and PS2 generics, essentially turning it into a permenant, action-free target lock.

But a 2-dice gun with focus + TL is worse than a 3-dice gun with focus. Your investment in predator is entirely used up by trying to make up for some of the TIE fighter's lack of damage compared to the interceptor, and you still fall short in most situations.

Well, so far the biggest pro has been more psychological. See, my opponents know how deadly interceptors are (and that's not even saying anything about how i fly them), so they will go for an interceptor from the start. However, those one or two little BSTs just tend to be ignored. They're not flashy or dangerous looking, so they'll stick around for 2/3 of a match before anyone even bothers taking a shot at them. Even when I've lost my more champion-type pilots, the one or two Black Squadron guys get it done. Sure, they may not go around one-shotting everyone out of the sky, but they consistently deliver damage over most rounds and last long enough to keep the party going. Four of the five matches I've used this in, my opponent has said some variation of "you know, I should have killed that thing early."

I'm having trouble finding the words to express how utterly wrong this is. You NEVER take a weak ship and hope that your opponent will be stupid, write it off as a threat, and focus on killing something else. It's not like your opponent is going to decline to shoot at all because nothing is scary enough, any shots not going into one ship are just killing someone else instead. Meanwhile, since you weakened your ship to make it less scary, your list as a whole is less powerful. The much better approach is to make everything scary (whether individually, or by spamming cheap efficient options) and present your opponent with so many threats that it doesn't matter which one they go after first, they can't kill them all.

Yes. Alpha squadrons that take a action to position do pretty much the same damage as Predatory BSP's and shoot much later. Countering the PS of most generics is a huge boon for the BSP as well.

But that's assuming both ships spend their action on movement. If both ships spend their action on offense or defense the alpha will outgun the predator BSP. And if movement actions are so important then why aren't you flying PTL interceptors, or just interceptors in general? I find it hard to believe that there are many lists/players where a barrel roll is the default choice, but not having a boost action available isn't a problem at all.So, what you're really doing is trading firepower for PS. Which goes back to the original question: is a PS 4 bid so important that you're willing to make a big sacrifice in firepower to get it? PS 4 works for BBXX and similar lists because you're not sacrificing firepower for that PS and usually end up losing a fairly minor torp/droid/etc instead compared to the PS 2 version, you can't say the same for the predator BSP list.

It's a valid ship. Alpha Squadrons can be good, but we don't see them used as flankers for a reason. Mobility actions are best used on high PS ships, to avoid firing arcs. The BSP can do that. An Alpha squadron cannot. It's the same reason Night Beast is so good. And generally you should be running hime before BSP with predator. But Predator has advantages as well. It's a phenomenal card. It modifies dice while stressed. Modifies dice better against low PS ships, making 2 hits all but certain.

Is it better than an Alpha Squadron Pilot?

Is a Scimitar with a Flechette Torpedo?

Is Night Beast with a Hull upgrade?

It depends on the list.

Remember that you get the full benefit of Predator against PS1 and PS2 generics, essentially turning it into a permenant, action-free target lock.

But a 2-dice gun with focus + TL is worse than a 3-dice gun with focus. Your investment in predator is entirely used up by trying to make up for some of the TIE fighter's lack of damage compared to the interceptor, and you still fall short in most situations.

Well, so far the biggest pro has been more psychological. See, my opponents know how deadly interceptors are (and that's not even saying anything about how i fly them), so they will go for an interceptor from the start. However, those one or two little BSTs just tend to be ignored. They're not flashy or dangerous looking, so they'll stick around for 2/3 of a match before anyone even bothers taking a shot at them. Even when I've lost my more champion-type pilots, the one or two Black Squadron guys get it done. Sure, they may not go around one-shotting everyone out of the sky, but they consistently deliver damage over most rounds and last long enough to keep the party going. Four of the five matches I've used this in, my opponent has said some variation of "you know, I should have killed that thing early."

I'm having trouble finding the words to express how utterly wrong this is. You NEVER take a weak ship and hope that your opponent will be stupid, write it off as a threat, and focus on killing something else. It's not like your opponent is going to decline to shoot at all because nothing is scary enough, any shots not going into one ship are just killing someone else instead. Meanwhile, since you weakened your ship to make it less scary, your list as a whole is less powerful. The much better approach is to make everything scary (whether individually, or by spamming cheap efficient options) and present your opponent with so many threats that it doesn't matter which one they go after first, they can't kill them all.

Yes. Alpha squadrons that take a action to position do pretty much the same damage as Predatory BSP's and shoot much later. Countering the PS of most generics is a huge boon for the BSP as well.

But that's assuming both ships spend their action on movement. If both ships spend their action on offense or defense the alpha will outgun the predator BSP. And if movement actions are so important then why aren't you flying PTL interceptors, or just interceptors in general? I find it hard to believe that there are many lists/players where a barrel roll is the default choice, but not having a boost action available isn't a problem at all.So, what you're really doing is trading firepower for PS. Which goes back to the original question: is a PS 4 bid so important that you're willing to make a big sacrifice in firepower to get it? PS 4 works for BBXX and similar lists because you're not sacrificing firepower for that PS and usually end up losing a fairly minor torp/droid/etc instead compared to the PS 2 version, you can't say the same for the predator BSP list.

You lose firepower with bloody daggers. You can run two HLC Blues and 2 Rookies for the same cost. Hell, now you could fit a Z-95 into the list with the extra points.

It's a valid ship. Alpha Squadrons can be good, but we don't see them used as flankers for a reason. Mobility actions are best used on high PS ships, to avoid firing arcs. The BSP can do that. An Alpha squadron cannot. It's the same reason Night Beast is so good. And generally you should be running hime before BSP with predator. But Predator has advantages as well. It's a phenomenal card. It modifies dice while stressed. Modifies dice better against low PS ships, making 2 hits all but certain.

Is it better than an Alpha Squadron Pilot?

Is a Scimitar with a Flechette Torpedo?

Is Night Beast with a Hull upgrade?

It depends on the list.

If anything, Alphas are the worst of the pack. Why would I want an interceptor that moves before I know where anyone else ends up?

We hashed this out awhile ago on: Developing List Apex Predators. Kinda winded down to 1-2 in a squad because you have the points= good... swarm = not so much. Then devolved into Predator vs. Outmanuever.

It's a fun combo and when it's worth the points it's awesome...when it's not, it's just a PS 4 tie that you paid 17pts for.

Mix and match seems best.

We hashed this out awhile ago on: Developing List Apex Predators. Kinda winded down to 1-2 in a squad because you have the points= good... swarm = not so much. Then devolved into Predator vs. Outmanuever.

It's a fun combo and when it's worth the points it's awesome...when it's not, it's just a PS 4 tie that you paid 17pts for.

Mix and match seems best.

Yeah, I've only just had the one in there. I'm not a fan of swarms of the same ship.

Well, for one it's obviously NOT wrong if I keep winning.

Nonsense. For example, you might be playing against much weaker players that you can dominate even with a pretty bad list.

And I fail to see how I've 'weakened' anything.

You're the one who said that it's weak and people tend to ignore it. In fact, that was your whole argument: that it's weaker than an alpha interceptor and therefore it doesn't draw as much attention.

It's just that this ship is scary and deceptive.

Only if your opponent is stupid. A re-roll on attack dice is not really a complicated thing, and a good opponent isn't going to be fooled by it. Do you really want to base your strategy on your opponent not being a good player? Do you really need help winning against people who can't even evaluate a simple ship correctly?

And I play against good opponents who know that "go after everything at once" is a one way ticket to Failtown.

I never said you go after everything at once, you pick the best target, remove it from the table, and move on to the next ship. The point is that if you have an awesome ship and a weak ship your opponent will focus on the awesome ship and kill it. The weak ship gets to stick around and shoot for a while, but it won't contribute much and eventually you're left with just a weak ship. On the other hand, if you bring two awesome ships your opponent still focuses on an awesome ship, but now you have an awesome ship killing stuff without interference and an awesome ship left once the first one goes down.

You lose firepower with bloody daggers. You can run two HLC Blues and 2 Rookies for the same cost. Hell, now you could fit a Z-95 into the list with the extra points.

That's not really true. Bloody daggers sacrifices the HLCs to get advanced sensors, if you take a list with two AS blues and two rookies you're not bringing HLCs. So the question is whether you upgrade all four ships to PS 4 or buy more AS-like support upgrades that don't directly increase firepower.

But Predator has advantages as well. It's a phenomenal card. It modifies dice while stressed. Modifies dice better against low PS ships, making 2 hits all but certain.

I'm not disputing this. I love predator and look forward to using it. What I disagree with is spending points upgrading a 2-dice ship to a slightly more effective 2-dice ship when it's almost as expensive as just buying a third attack die and getting more firepower. Predator is only worth it when you already have three attack dice, or a two-dice unique pilot with a special ability that you aren't willing to give up.

If anything, Alphas are the worst of the pack. Why would I want an interceptor that moves before I know where anyone else ends up?

Because you're not really using it as an interceptor, you're using it as a TIE fighter with a three-dice gun. Which is what the BSP is trying (and failing) to be. The argument that interceptors are glass cannons that need high PS and PTL to be effective depends on taking cheaper and more point-efficient basic TIE fighters instead. If your alternative TIE fighter costs almost as much as the interceptor then you're no longer talking about the same comparison.

a whole bunch of nonsense

You're still failing to see the point. I'm not planning on them being bad opponents. And I'm not intentionally weakening anything. You seem to be forgetting that my proposed little TIE dude is 17 points out of a squad. You seem to be operating under the impression that the rest of the squad is bits of packing foam and bubble wrap i've strewn about. So here are some examples of the things that my opponents ignore the BSP in order to attack:

Soontir Fel with PtL, RGT, Shield Upgrade and a Targeting Computer

Krassis Trelix with HLC and Mercenary Copilot

Carnor Jax with Hull, Shield and Opportunist

Rexler Brath with, well, really whatever it is I happen to have tried on him that time

You also keep proposing that the Alpha is better. I can't agree with you at all. the fact that it has one more attack die means almost nothing. in terms of positioning, it's the worst. In terms of firing, unless you have initiative, it's guaranteed to fire dead last. It has no means of modification unless it passes up its evasive options in order to do so, and by merit of being an interceptor it's more likely to draw attention to itself and be destroyed in a single round. No one singles out a no name TIE, because there's usually a) a lot of them or b) much more dangerous stuff on the board. I'm not saying the thing is a bloody powerhouse, i'm saying it's still quite cheap and efficient and consistently stacks damage on things. It's not the lynchpin of a squad, it's filler. it's slightly more survivable for it's damage delivery because it gives you both attack and defensive modification should the need arise (and being a TIE, the need bloody well will arise).

and as far as "not really using it as an interceptor"? That's just stupid. Flat out stupid. Because whatever you may be doing, your opponent sure will see it as an Interceptor. And they're going to kill it. Fast. Because people hate Interceptors, no matter their PS. And with it being the first to move and last to fire on top of being more of a threat than a standard TIE, you'll have paid extra for one more attack die that may only fire once if at all.

Somewhere in your little point-by-point, you mentioned that if I have a weak ship and a strong ship, my opponent will go after the strong ship and the weak one will keep on being weak. And therin lies the point. Comparatively, this BSP is one of the weakest things in any squad I choose to use it in. But it's a lot less weak than it looks. So by your own method of prioritization, you've relegated it to being something to get rid of last. This is the exact thinking that leads to it staying alive, and the exact thing that people who lose against me have been doing.

And again, SEVENTEEN POINTS! "On the other hand, if you bring two awesome ships your opponent still focuses on an awesome ship, but now you have an awesome ship killing stuff without interference and an awesome ship left once the first one goes down." Exactly! There's still plenty of room for tough ships in a squad like this! If I were to use up 17 points on this, do you know what I could take? Whatever else I wanted! Here's an example:

Soontir Fel + all the things

Echo + VI + ACD

BSP + Predator

Academy TIE

That wasn't even trying to make a cogent squad either, just clicking things until points because reasons. Now, if you're going to tell me, honestly, that you can look at that flying at you and say "yeah i'm gonna kill the BSP and then succeed at winning the mission", then you are going to die. Fast.

I'm not planning on them being bad opponents.

Yes you are. You say over and over how your strategy depends on your opponent being bad at evaluating threats. Let's look at your own words:

Because whatever you may be doing, your opponent sure will see it as an Interceptor. And they're going to kill it. Fast. Because people hate Interceptors, no matter their PS.

If your opponents are reflexively killing interceptors just because they're interceptors you're playing against stupid opponents. By making your list-building choices around an assumption of that reflex response you're depending on your opponents being bad.

you'll have paid extra for one more attack die that may only fire once if at all.

Except the point is that no, you really haven't paid extra. The extra cost is only true of the 12 point academy pilot vs. the 18 point alpha, replace the academy pilot with the 17 point predator BSP and you just paid essentially the same price. Which is the problem, by adding a 3-point EPT to a ship that is designed around being cheap all you've done is put it into the same general price range as ships with better guns.

And I'm not intentionally weakening anything.

Yes you are, and you proudly admit it if you bother to keep a consistent argument. Read your own words:

However, those one or two little BSTs just tend to be ignored. They're not flashy or dangerous looking, so they'll stick around for 2/3 of a match before anyone even bothers taking a shot at them.

You're very clearly talking about taking the BSP because they aren't as nasty as an interceptor and tend to get ignored because of that lack of power.

But it's a lot less weak than it looks.

And there you go again, assuming that everyone will make the mistake of evaluating the BSP poorly and make bad choices as a result.

Now, if you're going to tell me, honestly, that you can look at that flying at you and say "yeah i'm gonna kill the BSP and then succeed at winning the mission", then you are going to die. Fast.

Of course I'm not going to say that, because Fel and the phantom are obvious priority threats that need to be dealt with before we reach an endgame situation where your elite ships are alive and I no longer have the firepower and arc saturation to overload your defensive options and inflict damage.

Now, what this does is once again prove that you are wrong. Since the BSP is never going to be the priority target until everything else is dead you should trade it for an alpha that has better firepower. Shooting last and limited defense don't matter because nobody is shooting back, and the alpha has better firepower per point than the BSP.

1 point, 3 Pilot Skill, and the ability to maintain accurate fire without using actions are non-trivial advantages. Predator BSP are solid choices vs. Alphas. They may not be clearly superior, but neither are they the clearly inferior choice you make them out to be. In a list that takes advantage of their higher PS and ability to maneuver freely they can easily be worth their points, something Alphas struggle to do under most circumstances.

Since both ships have only a single focus available, and the Alpha needs it both offensively and defensively, the damage differential between the two is nowhere near as large as you would expect. 3 focused attack vs. 3 focused agility yields about .68 damage. 2 dice with a single reroll vs. 3 unfocused defense yields about .55 damage. If you assumed the target was PS 1 or 2 (like that Alpha for example), the damage becomes .66.

On turns where both ships lose their actions, the BSP deals similar damage while the Alpha damage output drops dramatically. Considering that the BSP fires 3 PS steps earlier, there is a good argument to be made in their favor.

I have been running with the following list since I packed away the X's after Regionals.

BSP -pred x4

BSP

Howlrunner

The consistent damage output from this list is in a word, phenomenal. It cannot be overstated enough that the ability to literally fly into the face of the enemy, not care so much about collisions, and then still reroll all my attack dice (most of the time) is fantastic.

Howlie still gets targeted first usually and yet the list functions beautifully even if she is one shotted on the first pass. The whole squadron can formation fly or pair off for hunt in little packs.

Definitely my go to list at the moment.

Tons of fun and incredibly competitive IMO.

I'm going to try this:

Black Squadron Tie Fighter x 5 - Predator

Black Squadron Tie Fighter - Draw Their Fire

Gives you some protection when flying in a squad against crits (when needed), while also not losing the extra 2 attack dice when cutting a ship.

Peregrin, this is the last time i'm going to address you. No more point for points. You keep being utterly wrong. This ship and EPT are 17 points. I'm not depending on anything. I'm not playing bad people. I'm not building the list around this. If anything I keep saying the opposite. My lists are full of better things to target. More deadly things. Predatory Black Squadron is filler. I like it because it feels a little more unique than just some bog standard TIE or Interceptor. And it hits more consistently without sacrificing it's evasion to do so.

And really, it's fairly insulting for you to casually dismiss not only me and my play style, but everyone I play with. I never said "the people who I play against personally and exclusively attack any TIE Interceptor no matter what," I said that in generally a person will prioritize an Interceptor over a TIE fighter because it has a higher attack value. You're flat out rude, and if you could be proven empirically correct that would be one thing, but the debate is about play style and highly variable outcomes. So you're callous and wrong on top of it. Look around: everyone is either saying they agree, or that it is something that is up in the air at best. I'd say this debate with you has been like beating my head against a brick wall, but honestly the wall would at least have the civility to bloody well be quiet about it.