Hi!

I need a bit of knowledge from all those SW gurus dwelling in this forums.

And Imperial Intel agent (Rival) is stated in pages 402 - 403 of the EotE core book, and an ISB agent (Rival) is stated in BtR pg 26.

There is a huge difference between the two. While the I.I. agent is a very competent individual, the ISB agent is far less competent and overall a rather weak rival. I have been reading the descriptions of the two agencies in the EotE core book (pages 367 - 368) and I have not found anything that justifies this difference.

So guys, is there a reason for this big difference between the ranks of the two agencies or it is just an "involuntary inconsistency" of the rule books?

Cheers,

Yepes

Probably an inconsistency,

However, you could write it off as being simply part of the COMPNOR ISB practice of sending out a lot of these guys with some rudimentry training, little bit of gear and a handler to get their hand in.

The vast majority die horribly in the streets because of who they are, get unlucky or just plain suck, the better ones survive a few missions and become formidable individuals capable of getting a job done with no one knowing.

That sort of dates back to the old D6 Imperial SB

I may be wrong here.

ISB agents work in groups. Each agent has a job to do and they rely on each other.

Imperial Intelligence is a much smaller agency. It's agents, therefore, need to be far more self-sufficient and so require more intensive training.

(I also thought they performed different duites - ISB being internal security (secret police), Imp Intel being for infiltrating other organisations (proper spies), but am even more hazy about this.)

There seems to be some rivalry between the agencies, too.

I do agree with Col. Orange.

And a group of ISB Agents (Rivals) ... that is a scary thought. Give each a different extra skill to represent their reliance on each other.

From EU material, I generally got the impression that the ISB is a much larger group with a presence on almost any world, that simply includes a host of low-level operatives where more emphasis was put on loyalty rather than skill - relying on brute force rather than cleverness, and calling in reinforcements from COMPNOR, the military, or local police rather than doing stuff on their own. They certainly have some elite operatives as well, but they make up a much smaller percentage than in Imperial Intelligence, which is a much less omnipresent organisation, but which places a lot more importance on a high skillset of its agents. Especially as Intel is a true espionage agency with roots in the Republic, whereas the ISB is just a political tool.

Quality versus Quantity, suitable to their slightly different mission profiles (the ISB being a far more overt reminder of the New Order most of the time).

Think of it like FBI vs CIA, for lack of a better comparison.

As I see it, Imperial Intelligence are the glorious spies while ISB are an undercover (not-so-secret) police force.

I usually think of it like this:

ISB ≈ KGB.

I.I. ≈ GRU .

As such you probably will see an increased presence of Imp Intel agents in AoR adventures compared to the ISB more likely to pop up in EotE. Then in F&D we'll likely see Inquisitors popping up more frequently.

First off, they serve different purposes, and some people are just better at their jobs then others. Some ISB agents will be borderline mooks, some will be top aces in their field. From a gameplay perspective you need different guys at different power levels for different groups and the adventures they run.

Now fluff-wise, I think Jegergryte is pretty close.

II is regular intel, focusing on getting actionable intelligence for the imperial military. They have some flexibility, but generally operate within the law and with a certain amount of pragmatism. Their agents, as actual real-life spy and analyst types, need to be good at their jobs, because they need to not only get intel, but back it up. If there's any kind of failures on II's part it'll more conventional in nature, and internal struggles and difficulties have more to do with things like maintaining operational secrecy and compartmentalization. II is more likely to not share information for fear that if the other party acts, that might tip off the opponent that II is spying on them, or give insight into how II is doing it (the best spy work is the kind no one ever knows about).

The ISB, as a branch of COMPNOR, is more like the Gestapo. They are very worried about loyalty, treason, sabotage, and espionage, and have a mandate that lets them operate beyond the law at least to a certain degree. So for them semi-reasonable suspicion is enough to act on (unlike II who want real actionable intel). As such, their agents don't have to be as good simply because COMPNOR doesn't need anything concrete to quietly stab someone on a crowded magtrain. The ISB's internal struggles can probably get really silly really fast, with the very real possibility of a spy circle jerk with three different undercover ISB teams spending all day spying on each other because they don't know who those guys are but boy are they acting suspicious.. The ISB won't share info, not because of any serious operational concern, but simply because they "don't answer to anyone but COMPNOR and the Emperor, and not in that order."

This is also why II and the ISB are going to be at each others throats a lot. Imagine being an II agent, expending a three year effort tracking rebel cells on Talay to back track their chains to the sector base, and having it all go to pot when a barely competent ISB stooge arrests one of the cells because the cell leader's brothers, kids, playmates, nanny thought the cell leaders shoes looked funny, causing the other cells to decide to disappear like a defel in a dark room. Or setting up a bogus rebel cell in a known hot-spot to act as a honey pot for real rebel sympathizers, only to have the ISB swoop in, arrest, and execute your entire team of trained agents.

This also opens some nice story notes. If the players find II is on them, they can sleep a little easier, as II is more likely to follow you around and see what you're actually up to, so they can wargame a little and figure out a solution. The ISB on the other hand might just orchestrate a "speeder accident" or otherwise arrange for you to be disappeared and call it a day.

Also getting captured by the II means you'll likely be imprisoned and tortured for at least a few months... which sounds.. bad... but getting arrested by the ISB means you'll probably end up floating in a canal by morning... so that's worse...

On the up side you can do some neat things. Like have the players, (along with some other NPCs) get arrested by the ISB and have II team posing as more rebels bust them out because one of the NPCs is also a II deep cover agent and II needs him doing his job.

I don't view adversaries as static rigid templates of how all of any group are. It's more baseline guidance to me that an ISB operative is probably not trained as well, nor as experienced as a Intel operative. It doesn't mean there aren't some corn fed ISB guys that can walk into the cantina and beat it unconscious, or that some Intel agents aren't idiots. It's just a yard stick for baseline overall averages. If the story requires ISB's version of the SAS, so be it. Make it up.

The ISB is the political thought police. They are to a man fanatical adherents to the New Order. If my players ask, I've always likened them to the Gestapo from WW2. While they are competent at their job, they are zealots first and foremost, with all the blind spots that entail. Their main danger lies in their absolute devotion to the Empire's ideals, more than their skill.

Impeiral Intelligence, on the other hand, are cynical pragmatists. They don't care about ideology, doctrine or anything besides getting the job done as effectively as possible. They are dispassionate professionals who have a very realistic outlook on what they do.

This tends to show in the way they operate (and obviously I'm generalizing a bit here, but bear with me). While an ISB agent would never cooperate with aliens, allow dissident thoughts in his allies or associates, an Intel agent would not care at all about such things, as long as the job got done. On the other hand, an ISB agent would literally die before doing anything he'd consider a betrayal of the Empire's ideals, while an Intel agent would swallow his principles as and when needed.

In all my campaigns I've always played Intel agents as more competent and ultimately more dangerous than the ISB. Not because of their skills or stats, but because of their thorough professionalism. The rigid zealot who will burn down anything and anyone that gets in his way is scary, but the cold and calculating professional with no ego on the line is much more likely to get you in the end.

Guys thanks! Nice SW fluff here! Just what I needed.

I think Krieger22's description is a really good basis for distinguishing between Imperial Intelligence and the ISB, but I want to offer one more thing--what the ISB lacks in skill and talent, they make up for in viciousness and cruelty.

If players run afoul of Imperial Intelligence, for instance, I think they'd get hit in a sting operation, where the "kindly old passenger" they took on planted a tracking beacon on their ship and the PCs subsequently get picked up on their next smuggling run. An Imperial Intelligence agent is rarely the one who gets in a one-on-one fight with the players--they trap them instead.

If players run afoul of an ISB agent, though, there will be a few one-on-one fights with the agent and a support crew of either mercenaries, COMPNOR agents, Imperial army officers or stormtroopers. On the other hand, the ISB agent will be more likely to call down an orbital bombardment on the town the PCs are hiding in, hold members of the PCs' families hostage, or just start executing bystanders until the players show themselves.

Players should ideally be wary of both the ISB and Intel, but for very different reasons.

Considering the mission of Imperial Intelligence, they are much more likely to care about the activities of Rebels than the actions of most Edge characters.

Let me say thanks again.

There very cool ideas here, actually they have inspired me to put my PCs in a (hopefully) difficult situation where they will have to decide which of their patrons will be the lesser evil in BtR

Thanks guys!

Yepes

Also, I would think that Imperial Intelligence would value its informants, and not double-cross them as long as they are reliable. I wouldn't say the same about the ISB, though (seem a bit more fanatical to me). The ISB looks at preserving the ideals of the New Order, while Imperial Intelligence is trying to keep a government from falling apart.