Wafflecopter said:

Comparisons:

-Void and Water

-Discard

-Draw

Get it? The two, unfortunately, are from different eras. **Ukyo** not only had Evil, but Kunai and Shinobi, and obviously, a much more powerful discard and draw. Sogetsu's only got fierce competition because other characters overshadow him, but due to FFG's delay of Set 11, I think he'll survive the cycle a month longer than other characters, such as Donovan who overshadows him by almost a complete margin.

I hope Sakura has. Like I said, I consider her a worse Mai. Mai has constant recursion, whereas Sakura just gets 1 card. Plus, Mai's life gain works on both turns, and she has Evil. How she is revered as worse than Sakura? Won't get it.

Sakura overshadows Mai due to the fact of popularity. Her recursion is easier (Forms are always easier than Enhances), but at the same time is a one-time only use in a turn. People prefer her due to slighty superior stats and the All symbol, I suppose. She abuses Grappling+BRT pretty well, but I'm in the same boat of not really getting it, especially since she does have Evil.

it's because Sakura's is an F and has no other requirement then to pick or choose. I don't need to play an attack where my opponent could possibly play dangerous E:s that hurt me. I also don't have to have a momentum. Also, grabbing back Juni's Spiral Arrow every turn is pretty cute...

Both characters have fallen off of peoples radars because they don't roll a 7-11 card handsize.

I guess I should mention my fall of the radar boy. That would be the creepy but strangely awesome Jivatma.

Jivatma fell off the radar because The Ways of Punishment exists. Without it, he looks almost inspiring. With it, he looks like garbage.

Having a handsize less than 7 instantly means you need good abilities. Jivatma's one ability IS good, but The Ways of Punishment overshadows it in almost every single way. As such, no point in running a deck based around Jivatma when you could run a much better character with TWoP.

MarcoPulleaux said:

The Stars Aligned.

Bigger pump that won't end the turn if it strips them of the last card?

quarzark said:

Not good enough, Earth-Evil-Void have more consistant ways of killing that don't require being named Jivatma.

The Stars Aligned is great and all, but not worth running Jivatma for. Also, don't forget about The Glare from the Abyss, which has been seeing a lot more play in Evil decks instead of Ways of Punishment.

HolyDragonCloud said:

...whaaaa?...really?

Eh...iuno, some decks do better with Rivals, some do better with Punishment. I quite frankly see just about no reason to prefer Rivals over Punishment, but some characters really do need all the cards in their hand they can get.

The reason why Rivals sees more play than TwoP is simple. Rivals is a more versitile card AND won't end your combat phase if you use it to it's full extent. TwoP is great and all, but can only be used on your turn, costs you cards (key word is cost), AND is a commit effect. Bitter Rivals is free. I don't care what folks say about revealing your hand, it's like saying Friends and Rivals wasn't free.

1. It wasn't. You had to commit it.
2. The Ways of Punishment is not limited to your turn.

Shinji - No-one has ever blocked an attack from you while playing Talim? They must not have been using Mysterious Stance (not having them is more likely for this one), or Criminal Past. I'll block any attack you toss from Talim, all the live-long day.

And I'll leave an open match for you - I'll take the Lu Chen deck that I haven't even begun to think of ways to build yet against your polished Talim any day.

Edit: Or the Balrog deck I dismantled prior to the GCC and haven't touched since.

(not saying Talim isn't good - because she very much IS)

MegaGeese said:

Actually, you're correct; I have not faced an opponent running either of those cards with my Talim.

Lu Chen? Oh please, I'll rip him apart =D

Hehe, I'm not sure what Talim I'd use though. Like I said, I'm appauled by Air/Good/Water right now since it's so hard to justify their use. Nevertheless, if I head up to Dallas for the Texas Throwdown, I'll remember to bring along a Talim just for kicks =D

Lu Chen will be waiting just for you.

MegaGeese said:

Whoops sorry sorry it's just for your attack. Cause everyone is gonna be reversing with Enkidu the Valiant all day long lol. Ok Heel Snipe I can understand though. Either way my point still stands: Bitter Rivals > The ***

B-Rad said:

Ummm I'd just like to point out now that TWOP isn't only usable on your own turn, if you play a Reversal on their turn you can enhance ways but i'd hardly see why.

Or there's Chun-li with ways on their turn which I can't belive nobody else has figured out until now =P

Chun-li R play attack, then E ways of punishment. That + Sworn vengeance = Crippled opponent.

Use it with akuma's shoryureppa and well, you win pretty much.

It's very situational for me when it comes to the two cards. B-rad made the good suggestion to me to use Glare over it since I'm not going for a one hit KO with any of my attacks in my current Ibuki build, and since my hand is going to be pressed to pump checks for my board reset buttons, it's better to use Glare.

I know Keith used it in his Zi Mei at the rochester regional, at least last I saw the deck list. Running both is unnecessary-you can make room for other things.

Thing about Chun-li-it would require her to splash Void. While not hard to do with some of the stuff Air and Void share, it's not necessary and room can be made for much better things. You're better off keeping her as an Air/Water (they share far more in common than Air/Void iirc) or just straight Air.

Though Akuma's shoryureppa and it are very good together. well put, sir.

Bloodrunstrue said:

DERP. It's been run over here. Albeit badly, but done.

Probably should build that, but I've no love for Chun-Li7.

We figured out Chun-Li + Ways of Punishment... but we were playing a lot of legacy a few months back, so it was more of Chun Li + Leaping Commando Kick. I. Eat. Your. Babies. I eat 'em up!

In regards to Sakura vs. Mai -- the big thing that puts Sakura over Mai in my mind is that Sakura generates card advantage by using her recursion ability; Mai trades an attack for any card she wants, but stays at 6HS. When you play against a Kyoshiro/Frogase/Fio/Gill/Alex deck that gets up to ~12 handsize in a hurry (between Bigger They Are and Aquakinesis) and then starts spilling 8 foundations a turn, you need all the help you can get. On that topic, too, Sakura is shorter than most of the field (and Mai), so she can use BTA better.

Wafflecopter said:

Don't you mean you drink them up? =D

Mai doesn't "trade" an attack for a card; her attack just has to deal damage.

I understand Sakura is just F: I get something, woot!

I just like the thought of, "Darn, I have just this one attack in my hand...but oh crap I have Midnight Launcher and Knight Breaker in my discard pile!"

During last format, holy crap, almost every game me or my friends ever won with Mai is because we added all of our kill pieces to our hand.

I understand Evil's a bit different these days, as it doesn't have Kunai or Chain Throken to be gay with, but Evil's still awesome, and while I'll admit John Herr is an extremely overshadowing Evil character, Mai supercedes her handsize and uses her discard pile as her own Tag Along.

Let's not forget, she has two other symbols. Professional Soldier, Natural Leader, and Omnidirectional give her necessary momentum, and she has access to enough throws, notably, Windmill Waster.

Prefered Ways of Chun Li attack would be Snipe so that they cannot cancel your Ways and you can commit something problematic.

Also Soiree is awesome. Not Love for the Capoeria Cowboy?

Sol Badguy said:

I like him too, but there's no denying that certain characters can abuse Shooting Capoera much better than he can abuse his own ability.

I was actually thinking about reviving my Soiree deck for our regional just last night.

Soiree + Stand Off = lulz

MarcoPulleaux said:

Going off your example of "I only have 1 move, but these other 2 in the yard!" -- you have to beat up your opponent with grey before you can beat your opponent up with orange, unless they're a bad aggro deck that doesn't know how to block.

For all intents and purposes, you can count on Throw attacks going though. While there certainly are cards to stop them, it's nothing Chester's can't stop. But really, this is all just a pointless discussion of who gets what out.

Like I'd sai, Mai isn't nowhere where she used to be having lost Chain Throken, Kunai and Shinobi, but she's still up there. I understand Sakura just commits herself to get 1 card, but Mai's symbols are better, her life gain is better, and the potential her recursion has is better as well.

It doesn't matter, though. Mai's been surpassed by others, and I've never really liked Sakura. One-trick pony has one trick.

She has the same tricks as Sakura =/