One thought that came up around the table at a casual friendly match at our FLGS was the question of "How do you know what weapons all of my ships are packing?" before we use them.

It came up from my opponent leaning across the table once all my cards were set up, and taking note of which ship had the Assault or the Cluster Missiles, who had the Ion Turret and who had Stealth and/or Advanced Sensors. Then, he would change the way in which he was choosing what moves to take, and what range to keep everyone at as we closed range.

It did occur to us that this is slightly odd, that an enemy pilot, beyond engagement range and at high speed, could instantly know every single bit of ordinance and upgraded equipment. We considered that maybe the ships all have super awesome sensors and that the different missiles and weapons give off some kind of electronic signature that could be picked up. But how many times in any sci-fi books or movies has the heroic character had a sudden moment of "What the hell is that they're firing at us!?!"

I'm thinking of trying a casual match or two where all the additional cards, so anything other than the actual ship cards, are face down until used at which point they're flipped and stay face up for the rest of the battle. I'm curious to see what kind of adjustments that would make to set up and engagement.

I realize that in an "official" or "serious" kind of battle, the question of how do I know you're not stacking your cards to 105 points if I can't see everything all at once comes up, but I do tend to give everyone benefit of doubt at least in our friendly casual matches.

Opinions? Thoughts? Flames?

The other issue with tournament play is it actually does make scouting a problem. But for casual, could be fun!

Realistically, would the enemy know anything other than ship class? How do they know which pilot is in each ship or what they can do?

Sensor readings. They explain it all. Especially given how Rebel Pilots customize their ships.

"Dude, my sensors picked up two death stars painted on the side of that ship. That's Wedge Fricken Antilles. Kill him fast or we're dead."

This is an open list game and so both players should reveal ALL cards for EVERY ship at the games beginning. Asking what each ship has or looking during the game is perfectly acceptable.

Would it make a game more challenging not to know? Probably, but that isn't how FFG wrote the rules, so that's how we play.

In friendly games, revealing only the ship card might prove fun.

The other issue with tournament play is it actually does make scouting a problem. But for casual, could be fun!

Given that scouting is something that is more accepted than an actual rule, I don't believe this particular detail would be that much of an issue.

I don't believe point cost should be an issue either (it's an easy to see through deception and would get people banned more often than they'd win something with it) but playing with face-up ordnance cards is pretty much a standard rule at tournaments, and it's not quite worth the fuss when someone takes offence to it.

We just thought it'd be interesting to see how tactics change. We're going to hopefully get a game in this week where two of us will keep everything face down until used. I'm really curious as to how it'll change how we play.

I also fully agree that the game, as written, requires everything to be face up. I'm not suggesting that be changed at all. Merely that we're curious to see how it affects us not actually knowing what each ship is packing, but only what it *may* have on board. Maybe I'll even suggest that we keep all the cards tucked under the ship card too, so that it's still not known, for example, what missile the ship has, but rather, does the ship even have a missile equipped?

Open list is standard.

At house play it's fun to only know types of ships at the start. Once a pilot uses his ability then you reveal pilot card same for EPT's etc.

Thinking about this I just had a Top Gun moment. Battle starts and both sides pilots announce themselves and what they will kill you with today. Other side responds "Holy crap its....."

Is it actually a written rule though? I will admit I never put much thought into it and just always played open, but I don't recall from the top of my head it being written that all cards must be open.

Core rulebook, page 4, step 6 under Setup:

Is it actually a written rule though? I will admit I never put much thought into it and just always played open, but I don't recall from the top of my head it being written that all cards must be open.

Core rulebook, page 4, step 6 under Setup:

"6. Prepare Gathered Cards: Each player takes

the cards matching his forces and places them

faceup outside the play area in view of all players. "

Emphasis is mine.

Right, question answered.

but I don't recall from the top of my head it being written that all cards must be open.

Page 4 of the rule book.

Prepare Gathered Cards:

Each player takes the cards matching his forces and places them faceup outside the play area in view of all players.

'ed.

But playing with things like secondary weapons or even EPT's hidden might be a fun way to try it.

Every tournament I've been to has been face up, and there is quite a lot of talk across the table like, "What are pilot X's abilities?", or "What upgrades do you have on ship Y?"

That's just the nature of the game, and it helps prioritize your target (and unfortunately) your opponent's targets..

Now, that being said, if an opponent forgets what is written on a card, I'm not going to go out of my way to remind him after the fact.

I agree, sounds like a fun twist to keep things interesting. Could add a new layer of strategy, & lead to some cool game moments as relevant cards are revealed. "Got a line on that shuttle... Oh $#!? Vader's in there!" Anyone remember Stratego?

I would say some cards have to be revealed before use. Like rebel captive can't have an effect before it is know there is a captive there. Sensor Jammer must be activated before use (say during the activation phase).

I haven't played with face down ordinance, mods, or pilot talents but once my friends and I get really confident I plan to. Putting cards face down under the pilot and revealing them as their effects take place would be a fun way to spring surprises.

I haven't played with face down ordinance, mods, or pilot talents but once my friends and I get really confident I plan to. Putting cards face down under the pilot and revealing them as their effects take place would be a fun way to spring surprises.

The pilots & their abilities are pretty much always going to be known, since the pilot names are on the ship tokens - unless you're going to get really sneaky & try to mask that as well. Even so, it would be hard to conceal during setup since a given PS with a given ship is going to be fairly easy to guess.

It would be kind of fun to have things be revealed when a ship gets within range 1. Would give incentive to either close to range 1, or stay out of range 1!

Hidden weapons might be interesting for a casual match but I think it would be terrible competitively. Knowing what weapons the other player has and their effective range allows both players to plan a strategy accordingly, rather than trying to guess what ranges might be safe to engage at.. It definitely makes scouting an annoyance as well, whereas open list play renders scouting completely irrelevant.

Realism is often not good for game design. Realistically, missiles would probably be extremely powerful and the opening engagement might see 30% or more of each side wiped out before the game even really gets going. FFG has been very cautious about making missiles and torpedoes too powerful, almost to the point where they are too weak, most likely for just this reason.

Hidden weapons might be interesting for a casual match but I think it would be terrible competitively. Knowing what weapons the other player has and their effective range allows both players to plan a strategy accordingly, rather than trying to guess what ranges might be safe to engage at.. It definitely makes scouting an annoyance as well, whereas open list play renders scouting completely irrelevant.

Realism is often not good for game design. Realistically, missiles would probably be extremely powerful and the opening engagement might see 30% or more of each side wiped out before the game even really gets going. FFG has been very cautious about making missiles and torpedoes too powerful, almost to the point where they are too weak, most likely for just this reason.

While yes no way to get around the scouting issue with hidden cards. I think knowing exactly what builds your facing simplifies strategy and can make some abilities or cards less valuable.

Lets take ordnance... You almost have to have a high PS AND ability to double stack actions for them to be worth while. Why do you need a high PS... cause your ship will probably be the first target by a focus fire squad. Gone before you can even use it.

Hidden, the opponent would have to either risk it or take it out. The opposite is also true, a-wings without say assault missiles are low priority to a swarm. Hidden, no matter what its threat level is higher (until reveal).

Hidden cards would add some squad building strategy and create more mental strategy and risks involved with prioritization.

Now you almost can't even use Wedge unless you also use Biggs... why cause your opponent will prioritize wedge first almost always, devaluing wedge. Hidden... you could get at least a extra round out of wedge.

I don't think open lists are wrong or bad... I just want to counter your argument that hidden cards would be "terrible" competitively... I could probably argue that hidden cards have MORE strategy involved, more variation options etc.. Also more luck though too.

I haven't played with face down ordinance, mods, or pilot talents but once my friends and I get really confident I plan to. Putting cards face down under the pilot and revealing them as their effects take place would be a fun way to spring surprises.

The pilots & their abilities are pretty much always going to be known, since the pilot names are on the ship tokens - unless you're going to get really sneaky & try to mask that as well. Even so, it would be hard to conceal during setup since a given PS with a given ship is going to be fairly easy to guess.

I know, that's why the pilots and their bases are face up and known but I think it would be fun to conceal pilot talents, mods, and ordinance under the ship cards.

Some of this was borne out of discussions we had locally regarding how A-Wings will change once Rebel Aces comes out.

For example, what goes through your mind for your TIE swarm as they're starting the turn towards the A-Wings that just dropped out of hyperspace and are moving to engage? Oh, are those A-Wings packing Assault Missiles so the swarm needs to spread out? Is there a Proton Rocket in those tubes and the A-Wings are going to make a run for the Shuttle? Or are they modified with the Refit and are now screaming across the distance to go to guns and the swarm needs to stay tight? How fast can we change tactics based on the evolving battlefield conditions was all that we're looking for.

Again, I never suggest that this be an official rule change. Just that we're going to try this as an occasional house rule at our FLGS the odd time.

I just want to counter your argument that hidden cards would be "terrible" competitively...

I think hidden upgrades could be quite a fun way to play. I also think it would add even more depth to the game. The reason why some would consider the change to be an issue for competitive play, is to be honest something I'm not sure I buy.

It's not really adding randomness to the game, but rather adding uncertainty, which for some reason competitive TT gamers seem to be against. I saw it all the time in 40k, the very idea of hidden lists brought about howls about how that would destroy tournament play... Because apparently tournament players can't cope with surprises.

Now I get it to a point, take Chess, everyone knows exactly what the other sides options are, they know what moves they can make and where they can attack or where they're weak. There is nothing hidden in Chess.

Also the dice in these games adds a random chance that already has a factor on win/lose. But myself I just don't see how having to plan for the unknown is going to destroy tournament games. Not when both sides are playing by the same rules.

It's not really adding randomness to the game, but rather adding uncertainty, which for some reason competitive TT gamers seem to be against. I saw it all the time in 40k, the very idea of hidden lists brought about howls about how that would destroy tournament play... Because apparently tournament players can't cope with surprises.

Would that really be an issue for X-wing players as well? Setting movement dials is hidden as well, but virtually all X-wing players prize themselves over their ability to predict and out-think the opponent's moves.