Does anyone else think X-Wing is approaching a limit in which the game engine itself cannot support additional craft with significantly varied stats from those craft already released? I tend to get that feeling with Wave 4 where the Defender and Headhunter have the Rebs and Imps crossing doctrine, or Wave 5 where the Decimator seems to fill an obvious gap, and the Outrider (to me) does not seem all that unique. Even the Aces expansions seem half bent on rebalancing and fine tuning existing models.

Consider that primary attack stats for a craft would not exceed 4 (in fact, I was surprised the Phantom pushed above 3 despite it having 5 guns) without being obscenely overpowered, or that base agility would push 4 without being obscenely hard to hit. It seems that most of the major permutations of the maneuver dial sets have been covered (seems... someone may disagree, and that's the purpose of this thread).

So as much as we are begging to see more small craft, is X-Wing's marginal value decreasing for each additional release? How can the X-Wing engine as it exists now accommodate more expansions offering fresh variations on stats and meta?

The huge ships and epic play seem to offer fresh play, but even they have their limits.

Any ideas on how to push the game's limits further?

Who cares if the craft are similar to one on the opposite faction. Look at the games and real "performance" of them in the old PC games.

Tie Defender was a beast with strong shields and good cannons in the PC game and is reflected accurately. Just as the swarms of Z95s faced as a pilot in Tie Fighter the PC game. Cheap , less powerful version of the XWing basically.

It's just more options for each side. The combinations now are even more diverse than ever as a result.

Empire has a ship with strong attack and good shields..

Rebels get a cheap fighter to do an inexpensive squad/formation with..

No I don't. There are dozens of ways to make everything between 1 0 2 2 and 4 3 x x work differently. We have 7 small ship modification card types and 5 basic action types to spread around. We have Large ships to work with. I mean think on it.

How different would a 3 2 3 2 ships with boost and barrel roll play then squints and X Wings both.

Or a few heavier fighters with crew slots like the Arc. Etc....

I agree that there is an inherent limit to any rules system before it starts to break down. However X-wing is a squadron based game. The variability of the individual ship metas is not nearly as important as the new and varied combinations and squadron dynamics that can be created by an experienced player.

The rules system may not look like much but she's got it where it counts, kid

Not even close to pushing the limit on ideas. We are talking about a game where each side has only 9 ships per side to choose from and that is including wave 5. That's only 18 ships for standard 20 if you count the epic ones. So far 3 ships have been visited by the aces products so there could be 15 to go. The Star Wars hype machine will go crazy when the first trailer for the new movie comes out and there should be a small swelling in the ranks for this game.

I think you raise an interesting point...

Just because there may be "gaps" in the possible combinations of the four base stats does not mean they would be playable or effective, which means that we are possibly approaching a limit of sorts.

New Pilots and upgrades will continue to keep things fresh, but only for so long, and by the same token, can only go so far in redressing balance/over costing issues, without a fresh start.

And of course, there's the issue of what ships that can be added without either diluting the focus of the game or alienating players.

I for one would not be in the least bit surprised if FFG released X-Wing Second Edition to coincide with the release of the new movies, along with new sculpts and revised/updated rules. Much like their Descent second edition, they could release an "upgrade pack" of new cards to allow first edition players to convert and use their ships in the new edition or such like...

The stats are really only one facet of a ship. Between actions, maneuver dials, and upgrade options, there is plenty of ways to distinguish ships with similar stats.

I agree that there is an inherent limit to any rules system before it starts to break down. However X-wing is a squadron based game. The variability of the individual ship metas is not nearly as important as the new and varied combinations and squadron dynamics that can be created by an experienced player.

The rules system may not look like much but she's got it where it counts, kid

Excellent point. I do think a campaign system would be greatly welcome and a next logical choice for a rules expansion. And who isn't hoping for a "trench run" neoprene gaming mat and miniature turbo laser batteries?

Just my two cents but if everyone remembers FFG openly said they had not expected X-wing to become as big as it was. I wouldn't be surprised if a 2.0 was released. Given the developers have gotten much better at making ships/stats/upgrades but have limited ways to go back and edit old ones.

I think a 2.0 is a perfect solution.

I don't think a second edition is happening any time soon. Especially since how young the game still is.

There's pretty much no way I'd buy into a 2nd edition at this point, if doing so meant my old stuff was no longer usable.

If they start giving X-Wings 6 attack, 5 shields and 8 hull, with new and different pilot abilities, and such. I'd be done, because I'm not buying everything over again.

As Sithborg pointed out, there's so many variations they can do in the existing system that there's plenty of room left.

I think KommanderKeldoth hit the nail on the head. This isn't a game about individual starships. It is a game about battles between different fleets.

The ships are different, and while you may feel that there is a convergence coming, when the ships will eventually have little distinction between stats, the fact is that every ship is different ENOUGH to allow for some variability in your squad building.

As long as FFG keeps that up - either through unique pilots/abilities, or upgrade cards, I think this game has some legs for a while. Let's face it, there are still things that can be done with the dial, new abilities/upgrades/weapon systems (tractor beams for example) that can keep this game relevant for quite a while. And with only a year and a half (fingers crossed) before the new movies open a floodgate of merchandising opportunities - LESS if you think that "Rebels" will likely do the same..

If they went the privateer press route and released upgrade decks to replace the cards I'd buy into a 2nd edition. But not this soon. I'm done with the game if I have to re-buy models.

If they went the privateer press route and released upgrade decks to replace the cards I'd buy into a 2nd edition. But not this soon. I'm done with the game if I have to re-buy models.

As much as I love X-Wing, I will not re-buy existing ships in a version 2 expansion.

FFG could seriously alienate players by making their existing fleets of 20+ ships unusable in a standard tournament format.

Looking at Descent, I really don't think that FFG is just going to pop out a 2nd Edition while this game is still going. Descent lasted 4 years, though they might've kept reprinting, and then 2nd edition came out 3 years later.

Now, I think the switch from CCG to LCG for two of their card games I think happened a bit close together. But there was the whole changing the release format from a dying system.

I agree I think the game still has legs to expand in several directions. as much as the prequel movies were disappointing for many I would be surprised if they don't start to eventually produce clone wars era ships. they would need to figure out how to limit their interaction with rebellion era ships but this could open up a ton of potential for expansion and not to even mention potential with the new trilogy in the coming years.

There's a lot more to how the ships feel & play than the stats. Imagine taking an X-Wing's stats and dial, swapping the 4 k-turn for a 2 k-turn, swap the droid for a crew, torpedo for a system upgrade, and target lock for a boost. This would be a completle different ship and fill another role than an X-Wing.

They could do some significant changes just with the ship cards, not the models. I wouldn't mind this as much as a 2.0 with all new models. Maybe a box set that replaces many of the cards and dials. I do believe there is more to do with what they already have though.

Aside from the many different options yet to be explored with regards to ships stats, I think the game is balanced enough to survive for a while without a major overhaul. The last thing we need is a Version 2 coming along making half our stuff redundant. Sounds like GW to me.

One thing I would like to see is an ongoing campaign system where you can take those basic squadron pilots and if they survive X number of missions or get X number of kills, can gain an upgrade to their PS, or an elite talent or even a random special ability that stays with them for the duration of the campaign. For example: Red 6 has just completed his third mission without getting blown away and managed to shoot down his 5th TIE Fighter, so he may now roll on the "Unique Ability Table" or increase his PS by 1.

I loved playing Blood Bowl a while back for just this reason. Getting certain members of the squad to gain experience and gain skills allowed you to really tailor the whole squad to your style of play. The best thing was there wasn't an end to the campaign. As long as the player stayed alive, he was in the team. This sort of play could be easily adapted to X-Wing for those ongoing casual games that we all seem to play.

Who cares if the craft are similar to one on the opposite faction. Look at the games and real "performance" of them in the old PC games.

Tie Defender was a beast with strong shields and good cannons in the PC game and is reflected accurately. Just as the swarms of Z95s faced as a pilot in Tie Fighter the PC game. Cheap , less powerful version of the XWing basically.

It's just more options for each side. The combinations now are even more diverse than ever as a result.

Empire has a ship with strong attack and good shields..

Rebels get a cheap fighter to do an inexpensive squad/formation with..

the more they release the less predictable the lists you will face become.

in the past you could almost bet you would see x-amount of swarms at a tourny and xxyy and on and on.

the more they release the less likely we will be to guess what we will be facing

i like this, keeps me on my toes, i went from top 2nd to 1st to no where near the top after more releases at my local store. i got to comfortable with 1 play style, i need to be more diverse and this is forcing me

I don't think they would make you re-buy figures for 2.0. More of a soft upgrade getting new cards and allowing ships to be used as normal.

Wings of War had a total of 48 miniatures for WWI combat. I think we're good for a bit.

http://yabs.isambard.com.au/misc-games-wings-miniatures.php

The panic about having to re-buy stuff actually put a smile on my face

Have GW really done that much damage to tabletop gaming?

Have GW really done that much damage to tabletop gaming?

Yes, yes it has.

For me the 'GW has killed my puppy and then made me pay them for it...' moment was putting together a squad of Space Marines and wanting to give one a heavy bolter. Only to find out the only way I can get a heavy bolter is by spending $35 on a devastator squad, which comes with 2. So I won't be able to use both if I actually wanted to use HB's with that squad...

The very idea that you had legal options for heavy weapons but they didn't include them with the unit itself really soured me to GW in general.

I'd like to see some advanced rules for small games plus hitting and damage separated... as well as better pilots getting more ATT/Def... and a 'Heroic' game, where heroes get about 10 defence dice or options to make them live longer (Han, Luke, etc)