Yes, yes. Flog me around the fleet for not getting into what seems to be a very, very cool setting, but I'm not a minis guy, so...

Anyway, now that I've seen that DH is in fact going strong (friends who're 40K fans were worried it'd die quickly, so I waited. They were wrong!) I've decided to purchase the core book. Now, what I'd love to know is what fiction fleshes out the setting? It seems like a rich setting, however does the "narrow" focus of DH mean that a lot of what the Imperium's like isn't covered? I'm a huge Fading Suns fan and love the amount of detail given to it, as well as the fast-paced rules. I'm hoping to learn as much about the 40K universe as possible, so that I can capture all the overt and subtle aspects of the setting, but I don't want to have to buy a truck-load of material. So, any advice as to what else to read/buy? Thank you!

Eisenhorn Omnibus is good way to start getting fluff. Warhammer 40k rulebook has informations about universe.

Eisenhorn Trilogy and the Ravenor Series, particularly the first two, are great. Both are Black Library Novels.

If you are interested in the Navy, the novel Relentless is nice, and actually a fun book to read.

The tabletop is more about the large picture, and very Space-Marines centric, so its not that useful in bulk, a few areas of the basic rulebook are decent though.

In terms of DH products, the Inquisitors Handbook is basically a must-buy. Its really great bang for the buck, with a lot of background information AND a lot of crunch. Disciples of the Dark Gods, on the other Hand, is a bit too specific at start, so I think thats a safe bet to hold off on for a bit.

Yeah the mini game is focused on things like Space Marines and Eldar which are really really rare in the actual 40K background. Since you have friends that play I would probably ask to borrow the main rulebook and read the background section for a very general overview as a good way to start (make sure its the hardback one because the small version doesn't have the background section in it) dont get carried away with all the races though as most are inappropriate for the scale of Dark Heresy and the Tau are just too **** far away.

I havent read the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books yet but I do know that Dan Abnett has a tendency to focus on the exception rather than the rule. I dont have a problem with it but sometimes you get the wrong idea of whats normal. Other than that, those books are probably the best for what you are looking for.

The Ciaphas Cain books are great just because Cain is awsome but I dont know how much help they would be to someone new to the setting looking for info about it and Sandy Mitchell ocationally makes background mistakes (not usually that serious but if you are looking for detail about the Imperium i'm not sure id trust them).

For Dark Heresy ignore anything featuring marines since they just do not appear in DH and the books are wildly contradictory in some areas and in others just get things plain wrong. If you do want to find out about Marines then some of the Horus Heresy books are good and they cover a big moment in 40k background, for current background then i'd probably say the Ultramarines books and I've heard that Storm of Iron is really good for a Chaos Marine perspective.

Really the setting is so big its about what you want to know first, most of the books in my list are available as Omnibus's so you should at least get some bang for your buck.

Kaihlik

I'm advise Eisenhorn. The Ravenor series doesn't represent all aspects of 40k and there are other deep dark secrets I'd mention about that series if GW couldn't view these boards if you get my drift.

If you want something truly mind-blowing get the Inquisitor War Omnibus. It was written by Ian Watson and follow a much more... I guess you would say brutal version of the 40k. With that though, keep the following in mind:

1. The first book was written approximately 10 years before the second book and the second written about 3 years before the third. Therefore he doesn't "officially" close any of the plot lines, besides mentioning them in passing, due to the fact that after that long of time he doesn't remember where he was going. Quite reasonable and it shows Watson is a master writer when you think about how Graham McNeil (who is one of the better BL writers, though doesn't hold a candle to the old school ones) took a 2 year break between his Ambassador Chronicles novels and in both novels you get totally different characters, progressive weaker plotlines, and the like. At least Watson was consistent in how his characters behaved and what have you.

2. If you know the lore really well (I'm talking about it as in since the Rogue Trader days) then a lot of what happens make sense, otherwise you have a lot of thinking to do. Though, in all honesty, it's nothing that a second read-through doesn't clear up and you'll be better off for it (By the way, to give you a spoiler that they do on the front cover of Draco: THE EMPEROR SPEAKS!)

3. Ian Watson is not, nor will ever be a tool. A lot of the current day 40k writers (James Swallow, Ben Counter, Henry Zou, and a few others who either worked with Kyme in his days as a White Dwarf Designer (keep in mind he never did writing *grumbles*) or worked on the Judge Dredd series) have their job not because of skill, but because of the fact that Nick Kyme or Lindsay Priestly could ask them to write a story about a chronic masturbator and they would. Ian Watson refuses to compromise himself, thus you get something that doesn't follow *ANY* of the guidelines BL gives to thier current authors. I won't spoil the end for you, but suffice to say at the end he takes things in a very different direction. Most people hated it, but that's because of the fact that they were looking for a 2-dimensional character as opposed to a 3-dimensional one who can have things that are more important to him than the safety of the Imperium.

4. It is the second most grotesque 40k book I have ever read (the first being Space Marine, by the self-same author). You have tentacle **** (before it became popular among the Japanese hentais mind!), mutilation, ways of staying alive in a desert that make you shudder, and well... to give you an idea how Dark/Grim this is, at one point one of the Inquisitors wants to capture Eldar children. Why you ask? Because then he can interrogate other prisoners of that race and torture these children to death to get them to speak. You don't see *THAT* in 40k books anymore!

I'd avoid anything written by:

James Swallow (the man's prose are horrendous, his first plotline was over the top in the extreme, and his characters suck horribly... plus until the third novel when he hit his stride things just kind of meander with him, though in said third novel if you have a biology degree you want to piss all over said book, especially seeing as how he missed some *REALLY* great oppertunities with the legendary character he introduced)

Ben Counter (how he still publishes things is a mystery to me... his only good stuff is the Grey Knight series, but that's because writing about lobotomized one-dimensional characters who have a serious lack of personality and any motives outside of slaying the Emperor's enemies is right up his alley).

Henry Zou (this guy is horrible beyond description! If you buy anything by him you're wasting money)

Lee Lightner (these two were so bad that they were fired mid-writing their second novel and they got a Fantasy writer to take over. By the way, this Fantasy writer had to start from scratch, was given the same deadline as the two sacked writers, *AND* he knew absolutely nothing about 40k lore... you can tell how that worked out!)

The Gaunt's Ghost series (at least the latter ones... they all follow a strict pattern and well... I have yet to meet a military person who likes them. They all have made comments that, if you ignore his doughy physique, Abnett would never have survived boot camp, much less actual combat)

Anthony Reynolds (he's a one trick pony who should be put down. All of his novels follow the same pattern: Anyone who does something wrong/scum-baggish is rewarded, anybody who has a glimmer of humanity gets killed. Oh yes, and if the person isn't killed, you can automatically assume they're going to turn out to be a giant monster and you'll be correct!)

Steve Lyons (you'll find that his Deathworld novel was entirely stolen, hook line and sinker, from the great Harold Harrison's novel Deathworld)

Nick Kyme (you know a guy sucks at writing when he need to be the senior editor of the publishing company to get anything he has into print!)

As for the navy, *DO NOT GET RELENTLESS*. Quite frankly, it was a poor man's version of Gordon Rennie's Execution Hour. Execution Hour is a *MUST* for anyone interested in 40k lore, particularly about the Imperial Navy. Relentless took things in a totally different (and, arguably, worse) direction and didn't show off the splendor and majesty of the Navy as Execution Hour did. Plus, quite frankly, Erwin Ramus is one of the most memorable characters in 40k history!

Also, anything by Barrington J. Bayley (RIP) will be amazing and tell you things about the "truth" behind 40k lore that you won't get in most novels/sourcebooks/etc. His Hive Fleet Horror revealed the entire Modus Operandi and function of the Tyranid Hive Fleet, plus his Eye of Terror was simply superb. You'll find some bad review on Eye of Terror, but that's because it has more of a Dark Heresy, "real" Science Fiction tone to it as opposed to the "Watch big, burly, hairy men in metal speedos beat each other over the head with metal clubs that shoot rockets" tone that 40k fiction has today. It reveals little things, like the fact that the Chaos Gods are merely 30+ (as in higher than the 30th) dimension creatures, what's the center of the Eye of Terror, how Chaos can continue to thrive despite "constantly being at war with itself", and shows you everything you'd ever want to know about Rogue Traders (very good if you're going to get into Rogue Trader as well as Dark Heresy).

In fact, while I'm ranting: The general algorithm is that you should buy any 40k novel that wasn't published when Nick Kyme and Lindsay Priestly were editors. Before you ask, Nick Kyme started his career as a Designer for White Dwarf, which meant he was responsible for Page Layouts and the like. Somebody in GW HQ (unsuprisingly) did not realize that just because he knows how to make pages with pictures look pretty, that doesn't mean he knows how to make a cohesive story. The other person, Lindsay Priestly, happens to be sleeping with (and married to) one of the founders of GW lore, Rick Priestly. Once again, GW HQ didn't realize that things like talent in making stories good cannot be passed to somebody through certain... "activities". To add insult to injury, right now GW's market is mid and early teen, which means that the amount of adult topics explored (like, for example, the duality of a Space Marine's role of Holy Guardian of the Imperium and Genocidal Maniac) is minimal and the level of complexity to the characters (and also the amount of development they have) is next to nill. Therefore you get poor quality novels/short stories that have almost no intellectual content and are mostly about Space Marines (who are heavily favored by tweens thanks to them being promoted in GW lore, causing GW to promote them more heavily in lore, causing tweens to favor them more, etc. et all). Definitely a step in the wrong direction, but what do you expect from somebody who managed to single-handedly sink a relatively successful shoe subsidiary? (Seriously, GW's current CEO is pretty much a Rebook reject and the Board of Directors isn't much better)

Any of the 40K table top main rule books from the last 3 editions woudl be useful.

www.lexicanum.com

Peacekeeper_b said:

Peacekeeper, my friend, forgive me for saying this, but I'd advise anyone using the lexicanum to read it carefully and not take everything there as canon. See my axe to grind against them seeing as how they won't allow Xenology Lore in it due to the fact that their editor(s?) doesn't own Xenology, thereby not allowing some of the great/earthshaking lore revelations to get out there. That and well... last time I checked they still had a thing about that godawful rumor that the Deceiver was in fact the Laughing God (this rumor started because they both operate off the Modus Operandi of tricking people and fooled a C'Tan into eating another... by that logic you could say the Emperor and Horus were the same person seeing as how they both operated off the Modus Operandi of Crush and Conquer and they both were extremely powerful, god-like psykers!).

They're a good reference, but not something for the hardcore 40k fan. Actually... come to think of it... probably a good idea to give that link seeing as how he's looking for reference material on top of things to read to explore the 40k universe a bit more. I'll apologize again and bite my tongue (after sticking it out of course) .

The Baron thank you for saving my money and time and sanity. I read some time ago one or two WH40k/WH novels and it was painful experience, I'm interesting in literature and science-fiction books are one of my favorites but the characters and plot was terrible. Thanks for recommendations I will order Watson's trilogy and Eye of terror soon.

Also for a fantastic Imperial Guard story I would suggest "Fifteen Hours" which is, in my opinion, the best IG novel they've put out. Unlike the Ghosts series it shows you what the majority of the Imperial Guard has to go through and its not pretty.

One thing about the 40K background is that different sources will contradict each other. This is actually a good thing for a Game Master. You get to develop your own "take" on the setting.

The only novels I've read so far are the Eisenhorn books. They actually contradict themselves a bit. But one thing I noticed is that the characters are essentially "Modern" in their outlook. See, I'm a grad student in Mediaeval Philosophy so I know a bit about how people from that era thought. Their approach to life was somewhat different than that of the Modern person. In general , people of that period/mindset, just as in the ancient world, did not "compartmentalize" their lives but lived each aspect according to an overarching organizing principle: you could tell what religion somebody was by how they conducted themselves in their private life.

The 40K world as presented in Eisenhorn is also fairly technologically savvy. They even have astropathic email. This is not necessarily how it is presented in the other source material... some of the source material suggests that technology is treated superstitiously (like in one of the Foundation books by Asimov). Now, there are superstitious people in the books but Eisenhorn and his group seem essentially 'above' them, acting a lot like people from 21st century Earth if transported into the 40K universe. I found the books to be only so-so (not on the level of The Final Reflection!) but there were some interesting parts.

Probably the best sources beyond the DH core book are the "fluff" (background) sections of the 40K miniatures rulebooks. Also, there was a game published by GW called "Necromunda" which was about gang warfare in an Imperial hive city (essentially a mega-arcology... imagine a building with a footprint the size of Germany). GW actually gives away the PDFs of those rules for free on their website; in the same section they also give away the rules for Inquisitor, a miniatures game that came before DH. Both of those games have fluff sections that could help you; also, it's cool of GW to give them away for free.

Mr Teatime said:

My pleasure mate, glad to help . By the way, there are exceptions to the rule I gave: Iron Hands by Johnathan Green was written before Kyme/Priestly and was horrendous. In fact, anything 40k written by him you should avoid... his Armageddon series was so horrible that the (very compatent) editor Marc Gascogine pulled the plug on it mid-stride. Green's Fantasy novels are up there with the great C.L. Werner's (who is the greatest writer Black Library has in their stables right now), so don't shy away from getting them or instantly shy away from Short Stories bearing his name.

Also, as mentioned by the guy two posts above me 15 Hours was good (even if it borrowed its plot from a movie about World War 1, but not complaining, at least it wasn't blatant theft like Lyons) . My only critical stone to throw is that the writing style wasn't exactly the most descriptive in the world ("The world was grey", "the sergeant was a short man who looked prone to violence", "The quartermaster was missing a leg and had a prosthetic replacement"), but beyond that it was good and, as mentioned before, certainly represented the Guard better than Gaunt's Ghosts.

You can be assured that anything by William King will be awesome beyond ken. In fact, he's the highest selling author in Black Library's entire history (owing to the fact that he's one of the friendliest men you'll ever meet in your life on top of one of the greatest writers). Before you ask, Nick Kyme/Priestly ended up sacking King because of the fact that he wouldn't be a good boy and churn out half-finished books for Black Library at an unreasonably fast pace for the publisher's profit (plus I hear there were some arguments about him not wanting to "do a great disservice to his readers" and "tone things down in [his] novels" to fit their golden 13-15 year old Target Audience; I forgot to mention that he's a man of integrity on top of all things too ). Therefore when you buy his novels, you should go in knowing that you're not going to be getting a finished product by any means. The pair Lee Lightner took control of his Space Wolves series and made a mockery of it; Nathan Long (a decent enough guy, if a bit surly) took over his Gotrek and Felix series. Nathan Long is a good writer, but well... he's no William King and thus you get an entirely different version of th dynamic duo (albeit at least Long explained this by having the two characters age 20 years after "wandering in the desert"). The two go from being young/hopeful to cynical/depressed, enough said.

I'd also heartily recommend the Xenology Sourcebook, if you can find it for a reasonable price. It reveals little things, like the Eldar/Ork Gods are one in the same (Gork = Khaine, Mork = Laughing God), that the Tyranids all evolved from a Ripper-like organism who evolved from a virus, that the homeworld of Ultramar is under assault by the Tyranids at a microscopic level, that the Tau are in fact the Laughing God's creations from him having stole a Q'Rol (insectoid species) Queen and implanted the pheremone sacks into the Ethereals (thereby allowing for said Ethereals to have complete control over the species), that the reason the Tau die early is because of the fact that their heart serves a dual-function as a liver but these posinous metabolic waste products can be reabsorbed by the Ethereal's pheremone squirter thereby making the Ethereals have a lifespan comparable to an Eldar's, that the Eldar no longer evolve, a good amount of the Imperium's technology came from Xenos species, etc. etc.

Do tell me in this thread after getting the novels I recommended how you enjoy them mate, am curious to hear

::EDIT::
Oh yes and there's also Matthew Farrer! I've talked to the man quite a few times (he hang around the Black Library forum), he's a great person and up there with Rennie in skill level. The short stories he's recent as of recently haven't ben as amazingly good as his novels, but beyond that...

Also, another exception to the rule is Simon Spurrier's Lord of the Night. A lot of people have made the comment "Now if only he could have brought that same level of skill to Fire Warrior" with that.

Requete said:

With a bit of flubbing they don't contradict each other too much. In fact, in quite a few ways they say the same thing throughout the years, just in less obvious ways. If you look at Realms of Chaos and the Liber Chaotica, then except for the whole section on Archaeon and Kweethul Gristlegut (AKA The Horned Rat) you have two nearly indenticle books.

As for your comment on Eisenhorn, keep in mind that he's an Inquisitor and therefore he'll have a much different prospective than the rest of the world. If you've never used a cell-phone, then it seems near-mythical. It you're constantly on one, then it doesn't seem to carry the same amount of mysticism. Here's a good example of it for you: This world-wide Swine Flu "Epidemic". As a biologist and statistician I know how extremely unlikely it is I'm going to be infected (particularly since I mostly drink tea/beer and eat only heavily cooked meats) along with how unlikely it is for this thing to become anymore of an issue than your standard flu. Therefore while you have people in hysterics (and FOX News declaring this "The Next Black Death") I'm relatively calm and unconcerened. Yet, at the same time, do I object to the amount of media attention this gets? Not at all. If everybody is on hyper-alert and the like, then there's a chance that there will be no new infections (well, in human life at least) and thus, visa vi, we eradicate this virus while it's still in its crib. Thus I'm willing to not say/do anything to break the hysteria among the people around me. If that analogy doesn't make any sense, then my apologies for going on a seemingly pointless rant .

Don't be too happy about the PDFs they're giving away for Necromunda and Inquisitor. They were always free and it was at the cost of disbanding their Specialist Games section that they came to the GW site. There used to be a group of designer who would constantly provide players with new scenarios, characters, etc. for Necromunda/Inquisitor/Mordenheim/Battlefleet Gothic/Five Armies/Warmaster/Epic 40k, now there's never going to be anything new to come. In addition, all those gigabytes of additional PDFs they produced are lost forever (unless of course you're like me and saved a good number of the Inquisitor ones). Of course, you can't miss what you never had, as the old saying goes. That and they are good sources of lore, don't get me wrong there either. Just wanted to point out the fact that there are many other pieces of lore missing (and hopefully somebody else was collecting them besides me and more than Inquisitors ones, thereby allowing more info to get out there).

I will just have to disagree with you on some of your suggestions Baron.

Relentless is a good book, I recommend it. I did enjoy the Gaunt series and lo and behold I am military. In fact I ready several of them during my last deployment and enjoyed them.

I stand by lexicanum not because it is 100% accurate but because it is a good source to get familiar with things you just heard of, even if they lead you a bit astray.

My biggest recommendation is to make your own opion and read books that you find, any and all. You can find several 40K novels at most used bookstores for as little as a dollar.

And you never know when you might find a gem that you like.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Ah, but Mr. Peacekeeper, did I say that Relentless wasn't a good book? I merely said that they chose a portrayl of Battlefleet Gothic that was the polar opposite of Execution Hour and, quite frankly, was poorer for it. I also said that the writing style wasn't nearly up to par when compared to the godliness of Gordon Rennie. Was Relentless a bad book? No. However, are there better things to spend your money on? Yes.

The Gaunt's Ghosts series you'll see I said that the latter parts of it became formulatic (The run into problems, high command sucks/makes things worse, some gigantic psychic Deus Ex Machina comes and saves the day or Gaunt is simply too cool to be killed, the end; by the way, that's the abridged version, somebody in the BL boards made a much larger version of "The Gaunt tropes" that all the books follow to a T) and therefore that ruins the quality. I'm actually a bit shocked by the fact that you're military personal and like it. I know a trauma nurse (male and enlisted, mind) stationed stateside, a special forces sergeant who mysteriously will disappear for a few weeks then talk about how he still has sand in his boots, an ex-British Soldier who fought in the Gulf War, and another British Soldier; all of whom absolutely depised the series. Ah well, takes all types I guess, right? Not at all bashing you with that, just after meeting 4 military personelle, all of them with different levels of combat experience and from different georgaphic locations and seeing them all dislike the series to the extreme I figured it was a common thing.

Lexicanum is a good source, but as said before, it needs to come with a big warning sign about it. Otherwise people will run around thinking everything it says is final and canon.

As for reading any/all books... I own about 70-80% of the things BL has published (if we talk about novels only, then I just need Into the Maelstrom and the Necromunda Anthology to own every single book they've published) and recently, with a lot of the novels, I feel like I would have gotten more satisfaction simply lighting the money on fire. As I've mentioned before mate, there's been a serious drop in quality. Part of the reason why I openly give my opinions on these novels so publically/vocally is because of the fact that A) I don't want others to feel like they've wasted their hard earned money and B) If people keep buying the crappy novels, then those authors will keep getting comissions. If they don't buy the crappy novels, then their authors won't get the comissions, and BL will hopefully find a much better person more deserving of a place.

Just throw this out there: I don't think I hate GW either, having been following them for well over a decade. Truth be known, every now and then when I see them doing something brilliant, I'm a shareholder .

There's something you need to understand about 40k canon. There really isn't any. The Black Library team has actually stated that 40k is full of legends and misinformation and that canon is nearly non-existant. Any book you read may just be story or it may be a lie or the person who wrote it was just wrong. Lots of things are going to contradict lots of other things and you are forced to create your own canon and accept or deny things on your own. From just barely skimming this thread I have picked up on some things that confuse me. Chaos Gods are 30th dimensional beings? Gork and Mork are really Khaine and the Laughing God? The conclusions that you reach when reading 40k stuff are bound to be very different than that of another person's.

So, read everything you can get your hands on starting with books involved with the Inquisition. Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Inquisition War should probably be your focus right now. Just keep in mind that a lot of the stuff in Ravenor is generally too high tech for 40k, especially in regard to hw common psyker blocking devices are. Also that the Inquisition War series uses a lot of background from older editions that many feel has been retconed.

Mister Baron what's your greivance with Ravenor? I'd love to know, even taking it to messenger if you really can't say on these boards. I lover ravenor (though book 3 is something of a mix of good and bad) and I'm very interested in hearing others' opinions on Dan Abnett's inquisition material. (gaunt's ghosts, while good, is actually quite formulaic).

I've found your information on the workings of GW and the Black library to be extremely interesting, if unsurprising. Though I have to decry whoever held Bill King up as a good author. He might be a nice guy but his books make my duodenum hurt.

To the OP, I would caution you about dumping any kind of money on BL books. If you're going to get some to read up on, definitly seek out used cheap ones. If you thought they were abysmal and couldn't finish them before, there probably won't be much difference when you try again.

The BL books definitly have their own niche and some are better then others, but in the grander scheme of sci-fi literature on the whole and BL books, it's rather akin to sci-fi movies on the whole and movies the sci-fi channel shows on Saturday afternoon. Some are better then The Rock Monster or Mansquito, but that's really not saying much and, in the end, they will never be Blade Runner or the like. They're great if you have a couple of hours with nothing better to do and some beer, but don't expect anything out of them. Just keep that in mind with the BL books. Another analogy: they're like the Taco-Bell of sci-fi. Good if you have a craving and need a cheap fix, but don't expect to get anything good out of it and, in the end, you may have to end up painfully purging it from your system.

As for other sources, i would also strongly recommend the lexicanum site for getting a good feel for the universe and what's what and, best of all, you don't have to spend a dime.

Another site I rather like, though it is a terrible site (but hey, BL novels got brought up so I'm in my rights referring you to more terrible horrible mind numbing sources!) which isn't exactly informative in the strait sense of the word but it's still damned funny and might not cause as much damage as binge drinking: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/40k

The PDF's that were mentioned up thread can be found here:

Inquisitor

(I strongly recommend the Thorian Sourcebook. Lots of good info there)

Necromunda

Beyond these online resources, various online communities (like this one for instance) are great sources of information now and again and, of course, nothing beats the Dark heresy books themselves. After all, the only cannon for Dark Heresy is Dark Heresy ;-)

As it's been pointed out above, there really is no cohesive definite cannon for 40k. Everyone simply has to piece their own interpretations of the universe together for themselves and these interpretations rarely completely jive with one another. There's a lot of material out there to pick your own cannon from.

As for your question about whether Dark heresy is more limited then 40k at large or not, I would actually argue that all the material that has come out for 40k so far is more limited in scope then Dark Heresy (heresy, I know). You see, most everything that has been dealt with so far (with only a few exceptions here and there) has pretty much dealt with wars, war zones, solders, more war, etc. There hasn't really been much exploration into peaceful areas of the Imporium and life outside of war.. While Dark heresy doesn't touch on these topics all that much either, it seems to do a bit more then what has come before. And while it's default setting deals with the Inquisition, that doesn't mean that's what you have to do with your games.

I second (third) the Eisenhorn trilogy. I also liked the Ravenor trilogy but I should say that I'm very into character driven storytelling that it certainly was that.

Another suggestion, in the absence of novels is find two friends of yours who play the minis game. If you can find one who plays Chaos and one who plays Space Marines even better. Get them to start arguing about the Horus Heresy (easier than you think, you could start by saying, "hey guys, what exactly is the Horus Heresy?") and then just listen. It'll make your brain explode But it'll also give you a good view of the world being that it's large, it's vast and it's contradictory. That was my introduction to the WH40K gameworld anyhow and it worked suprisingly wel.

TheSaylesMan said:

Ah yes! The good old defeatist argument. No offense meant to you at all TheSaylesMan, but I've been waiting for this to rear its ugly head. Having been known by many names among the Black Library forum(ChaosMonkey, KhornateMonkey, TheBaron, MisterV, etc.) I have seen this come up many times before.

The Black Library team has been wrong on many occasions. For example, you'll notice that on the main BL site they no longer say that the novel Space Marine doesn't follow with lore, but merely that some Boxtree publications are not being repbulished. That's because I went through the novel in a very in-depth synopsis (that bordered on copyright infringement) and proved that, yes indeed, Space Marine did fit in with all the current lore. The reason it was banned was because of *VERY* heavy homoerotic overtones (i.e. Teenage initiates running naked through a tunnel where they're in constant pain for the "hormonal release" of older initiates and their reward being branded with the Imperial Fist on their bum by an older, burly Sergeant of the Imperial Fists who "sticks his giant red-hot iron poker into their asses") along with grotesque imagery beyond imagination (i.e. The Tzeenchtian Cult Leader in it eats **** because of the fact that excrement is the best example of Tzeencht: He takes something pure and whole and turns it into a choatic mess of debasement). Thus you can't trust what they say entirely, also that provides them with an easy out to changing lore willy-nilly and alienating their fanbase.

Chaos Gods are 30+ dimensional beings, see the current Chaos Codex about the daemons all being a part of their patron deity but separate. Think of it like you putting your foot down on a 2-dimensional plane: They'll perceive the ridges upon your toe as a long series of crushing lines that obliterate everything beneath them. Yet, those ridges are all a part of your foot, which is a part of your leg, etc. etc. Nothing has changed since 40k first started, they've just obscured their explanation (i.e. Made it seem more mythical than scientific).

Gork and Mork are really Khaine and Cegorach. Think about it: Both Orks and Eldar were created by the Old Ones. The Old Ones are the "gods" and what have you. It's all very clearly spelled out in Xenology. You have to read the sourcebook to understand (and in some cases have a biology degree... I don't know if Si is a biologist by trade or just did a ton of research, he's one of the few authors I've never had a chance to meet, but the man knows his stuff!)

As for retconned background in Inquisition War, you'd be amazed how little has *REALLY* been rectonned. The Star Child *HAS* to exist for Rhanda Dandra to exist due to the fact that the Emperor's spirit being released into the warp signals the advent of said galactic Ragnarok. You'll also find that a great amount of the Star Child opposition camp only oppose it because of the name and many are all in favor of the "Thorian Ressurection" (Gav Thrope's renaming of the Star Child, feeling that the name "Star Child" was too hippyish, yes I got that directly from the author himself. He supports the concept, just not the name!).

If you want to go with the argument "make of it what you will", then you might as well say "don't pay attention to the Warhammer 40k in front of the Dark Heresy, just create your own science fiction setting". Things can be reasoned out and there are many explanations that fit in with all camps. It's just a matter of looking for them. Also, to all of you out there who are GMs: Remember that the Inquisition is the exception to the rule. Everybody follows Medeival philosophy except them seeing as how they've seen the truth behind the lies.

Locque said:

Message has not been sent .

As mentioned mate, I've been following GW/Black Library for nearly two decades (which amounts to almost my entire life, sadly). I'm known (if not friends) with a majority of their authors (past and present) along with having connection among BL/GW's employees (Have to say, he might not be the highest calibre programmer (I'm ivy league, so my calibre is very high), but Ragnar Karlsson and I have computer-nerded out on the BL forums many a time). My information comes from having to see this once-great company under its managers who are now in charge of FFG change change to managers who are all rejects from other companies and more interesting in making a buck than anything else. The whole reason GW became so big is because they cared more about the hobby than their profits, which in turn made their profits rise seeing as how we (the people) had no problem investing heavily since we knew that the management cared deeply about us and our views/the game/the lore/etc.. Now, GW is ruled by people who "brilliantly" last year took a 15 million pound loan out with horrible terms and are bragging about how this year they've shown a profit (which, by the way, isn't much of a profit, especially compared to the amount of money they're now in debt to the banks to). You can tell how this is going to go... I'd advise not investing in GW stock anytime soon . Oh yes, and their primary shareholder are all mutual funds who have suffered greatly due to the global economic crash (Polar Bear was down nearly 5% on the year, the Nomad group is a subsidiary of Phoenix and Phoenix is down, etc. etc.; see their investors report if you don't know what I'm talking about, these are their primary investors and you can guess whose ill performing stock they'll sell if they get into trouble)

Decry me all you like, but I love Bill King. To each his own though, I've met my fair share of people who weren't fond of his writing. I can't see why, but I totally respect your opinion, my new friend and feel free to say it.

Graver said:

To defend Black Library, they were not always awful. Ian Watson worked with Stanley Kubrick (The Director of Platoon, Clockwork Orange, The Shining, and other classic films) and wrote/worked directly with Stephen Spielburg, in addition to winning every single possible award known to man for Science Fiction. Barrington J. Bayley (RIP) was one of the greatest British Science Fiction writers to live. Gordon Rennie is a legend. Back in the day, they weren't the Taco-Bell of Sci-Fi. Sadly, this has changed (see my rant about Nick Kyme/Lindsay Priestly) and I won't defend the novels that are a part of the "new regime". However, don't lump the old regime of greatness in the same catagory.

Graver said:

See my argument about how there can be a cohesive definition of cannon for 40k. On the Black Library site, before I left due to my Aunt/Mother developing breast caner along with a variety of other personal tragedies I won't bore you with, we had almost developed one that fit everybody's views. A lot of the material says the same thing over and over again; it's just that you have to read carefully to get it.

As for Dark Heresy being a grander scope than 40k, I have no argument there. See my comments about the fact that one of the three founders for GW just happens to be the owner of FFG and therefore, he knows better than anybody the "correct" definition of 40k among other things. Also, the whole argument of how BL lore has descended to become the "Taco-Bell of Sci-Fi" in recent history.

StrixLuna said:

, you're evil mate. It works surprisingly well, becuase of the fact that you get two opposing views of 40k. Without said two opposing views (you should add in another faction, some Xenos group, and have them argue it out), then you can't see all the lovely contradiction and what not.

The Baron said:

Wow, mispellings/grammatical errors to the extreme. My apologizes to everybody on the forum. I'd change these things, but for some some reason the boards aren't letting me edit anythong at the moment.

I started the Eisenhorn Trilogy today and....WOW! Thanks!

The Eisenhorn trilogy is good place to start. There are plenty of other places to go. While Ciaphis Cain is a great read, you won't get the in jokes unless you understand the setting.

Now a word of warning. Even people who generally know what they're talking about can be wrong. Let's take the example of Xenology. The Baron [for whom I have considerable respect] has said a lot of things are revealed in it and that's true, but in my opinion in some cases he's jumped to conclusions based on insufficient evidence. For example there is a block of text that reports that Q'Rol queen was taken by the Eldar and subsequently Tau ethereals are found to have a virtually identical phermone producing organ. Now that strongly supports an argument that a group of Eldar performed gene engineering on the Tau, but that doesn't mean the Laughing God was behind it. Even symbology representing the Laughing God can often just refer to harlequins, who will act as the Laughing God directs or perhaps as a farseer requests. Gork and Mork to bear resemblances to eldar gods, but the Laughing God is in hiding and Kaine was splintered into pieces as a result of the Fall of the Eldar and the rise of Slaanesh while Gork and Mork are stated to be stronger than the Chaos Gods (because there are so very many orks and orkoids out there[far more than there are humans] and all of them are psychic.

Does that mean that The Baron's necessarily wrong? No, he has evidence to support his beliefs. Eldar, and Orks, for example, are clearly bioengineered species with much in common and this is also confirmed in the Necron Codex. He's also right [in my opinion] on a number of other issues, such as the Ravenor series not being so hot. He could also be right on the points where we disagree. The evidence is, in many cases, deliberately murky.

As for why Ravenor isn't so hot, the series suffers from a lack of focus. Eisenhorn is focused on Eisenhorn and his staff are important, but secondary characters. Abnett divides the focus in the Ravenor series, dividing attention on Ravenor and his staff. As a result Ravenor comes off as unimpressive [for someone who we are told is brilliant he doesn't seem that bright and he doesn't provide enough leadership) and his staff come off as semi competent (because they are already dropping the ball). Also, two of Ravenor's staff make some appalling stupid decisions (I'm speaking of the acrobat and interrogator) and lack of repurcussions in one case is particularly galling.

Not to derail this thread, but I think Baron has FOX news confused with CNN/ABC News/CBS News on this whole swine flu issue.

This gives a good rundown on 40k in general. Beware TVTropes eats your life up one trope at a time.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Warhammer40000

Hellebore

I'm a newbie into WH40K as well (currently GM'ing a WFRP campaign, but looking to play a few WH40K one-shots) and while I'm currently trying to make sense of the WH40K background, I wonder how I can quickly bring my players up to speed on the background. Is there a good WH40K setting synopsis out there?

not realy, the best way is to let them read the Players sections of DH & IHB if you have them, otherwise you have to go out and drop big Spendolies on a bunch of GW books for the Minitueres game(s) a good slice of whom are out of print and are partialy De-Canonised.