Lol I can't imagine how bad/unlucky your opponents are if a Z-95 at ps2 makes it all the way to range 1 and gets to its pilot skill step (including if the opponent has initiative) and still has its stealth device and/or didn't have to spend its focus.

You know there are other ships on the table, right? If you've got a swarm of Z-95s then some of them are going to get through, and if that Z-95 is flying alongside a Falcon/b-wings/etc then congratulations, by focusing everything on the Z-95 to stop it at all costs you just gave your opponent Biggs at a 7-point discount and without the range limit.

I am not saying focus firing to stop at all costs I'm saying sneeze in its general direction to strip the stealth and weaken its missile in one go, from their you have basically a Tie fighter with less agility to be eliminated at my convenience.

I am not worried as much about a 4 die attack at PS2 I'm worried about stopping the 5 die one.

Focus firing is great and all but there are times when split firing is more beneficial, and a hardwired refusal to deviate from a tactic will be a certain loss no matter what you target.

The hard part is, spending just 1 shot to strip a Stealth Device could mean another ship lives by 1 HP. Heck, I think I'd prefer it if my opponent wasted 1 shot, spreading the damage like that.

That's pretty situational. It's a weak tactic. Stealth device is already unreliable. Putting it on a PS2 ship to add the damage is not going to help. Especially considering if they make you burn that focus you still cannot fire.

It's for the bait, If I have Howlrunner lined up Range 2 and a Scimitar with PR and SD at range 1, you tell me who you'd rather shoot. Especially when Howlrunner is still supporting 5 APs. It creates a tough decision with no good answer. Even if you just waste 1 shot on the Bomber to strip the SD, you've reduced your chances to kill another ship that turn, meaning you might as well stick to killing the Bomber or risk no kills. You'll need all the shots you can to kill a Range 2 Howlrunner, after all. Of course, you could shoot for the Range 1 APs after stripping the SD, but now you'll only kill 1 instead of 2, that sort of thing. Finish off the Bomber and you're range 1/2 of 5 APs all supported by the Howlrunner, don't shoot it at all, and risk a 5 dice attack. Math probably says to shoot the APs, but wouldn't it just suck if that Bomber removed the shields of that B Wing or just 1 shot another Tie all by itself? Just my 2 cents.

Whichever one hurts you more. If I'm running a 3 ship build your bait might work. But strategies that work well against three ship builds aren't rare or very good. And again. For 18 points you can do a lot better, even on a bait piece. Efficient squad building is key.

I'm looking forward to Proton Rockets on Rhymer. Range 1-2 rather than just stuck at range 1. The rockets would be a lot more useful at longer range..

Not to mention numbers, but screaming in with an A-Wing and dropping 5 red dice focused at point blank range? Possibly with extra dice thanks to EPTs? Ain't nuthin' wrong with that. That's just pure, unadulterated fun.

They should make a new pilot, Russel, just for this rocket.

"All right you alien a**holes, In the words of my generation..... UP YOURS!!!!!"

Coming to the discussion a little late, but I think some people may have missed it (although the OP did highlight it) but unlike other missiles and torpedoes, Proton Rockets don't actually require you to spend the focus token to fire them. They require you to have a focus token, but nowhere does it mention spending it (unlike other missiles, torpedoes, and the wording of the Deadeye EPT). So when you do fire it, you should achieve more hits thanks to being able to spend the focus token to convert extra hits.

Also this will be a lovely addition to Vader.

So how about:

Green Squadron Pilot (19) - Proton Rockets (3) - Predator (3) - 25 points...x4?

Might stick one on Vessery supported by bombers. K-turn behind, 5 focused dice with a TL if the defenders been TL'd by your bombers. If you've gone for outmanoeuvre on him too it could really sting!

Might stick one on Vessery supported by bombers. K-turn behind, 5 focused dice with a TL if the defenders been TL'd by your bombers. If you've gone for outmanoeuvre on him too it could really sting!

The problem with this is that you'd be getting 4 attack dice without the Proton Rockets. Is it worth a 3 point upgrade for one extra attack in a very limited situation? I'd argue that you could probably find a better use for those three points in most other lists. And not to say that rolling five dice isn't much better than four, it just that it is going to be hard to achieve regularly. Instead you could give that Defender and Ion Cannon, or upgrade someone else to a higher PS, or give out an extra EPT, etc. Heck I'd probably take a Hull Upgrade or Stealth Device on a Defender over Proton Rockets.

Might stick one on Vessery supported by bombers. K-turn behind, 5 focused dice with a TL if the defenders been TL'd by your bombers. If you've gone for outmanoeuvre on him too it could really sting!

The problem with this is that you'd be getting 4 attack dice without the Proton Rockets. Is it worth a 3 point upgrade for one extra attack in a very limited situation? I'd argue that you could probably find a better use for those three points in most other lists. And not to say that rolling five dice isn't much better than four, it just that it is going to be hard to achieve regularly. Instead you could give that Defender and Ion Cannon, or upgrade someone else to a higher PS, or give out an extra EPT, etc. Heck I'd probably take a Hull Upgrade or Stealth Device on a Defender over Proton Rockets.

I personally think proton rockets are better than an Ion Cannon, proton rockets when combined with Vessery+Outmaneuver means you now have a reasonable chance to one shot an X-wing/any Tie except a bomber/defender. and with an Ion you go from 3(4 at r1) potential damage to 1(at all ranges) potential damage, yes knowing your opponent will occupy a given probability cone is nice (in the case of BR/boost capable ships) but it doesn't matter if you can just blow it up and be done with it

This may be an odd complaint, but I feel that the Proton Rockets really don't fit their flavor at all. I remember them being used primarily against capital ships. Of course, I'm wondering if they still intend to make Heavy Space Bombs/Rockets. If those things walloped Huge ships then I'd be happy.

Thematically, the proton rocket you flew right up to a Corvette as close as you could to a vital point, dumbfired and got out of there. The person best at that? Maarek Steele,who synergises very nicely with a 5 die attack.

Add to this that nothing stops you using opportunist (since a huge ship's rules means it can't have a focus or evade token) and you've got a 6 die attack.... against someone with no evade dice, and with the ability to spend your focus token on modifying dice, that's going to hurt - quite realistically one-shotting a corvette's shields in a single attack.

The problem is that your basic analysis is too basic. Remember, X-Wing is a game with opposed dice, not just "roll to see how much damage you inflict". This means that what matters is the difference between offensive and defensive dice. So a difference of half a point of damage on average can be a huge increase in firepower if you're only averaging half a point of damage getting through the target's defense. To put this into context stacking focus + TL on a 3-dice ship only adds about half a point of damage compared to just focus, and this is considered an extremely powerful action.

Exactly. A heavy laser cannon is only "an extra die" for a B-wing. The reason it's impressive is that you go from 3 dice attacking 4 dice to 4 dice attacking 3 dice - i.e. from 1 die in your opponents favour to one die in yours. The more attack dice you already have, the more valuable an extra one is (up until we get into the realm of one-shot-kills, anyway).

Just to brown your shorts a little:

Vader w/ daredevil, eu, and prton rockets clocks in at 39 points. He has the equivalent of a 1 white k turn. Ps of 9 and is tanked as hell. And can deliver a focused targetlocked 5 die attack. I think the tie advanced just made a comeback!

Just to brown your shorts a little:

Vader w/ daredevil, eu, and prton rockets clocks in at 39 points. He has the equivalent of a 1 white k turn. Ps of 9 and is tanked as hell. And can deliver a focused targetlocked 5 die attack. I think the tie advanced just made a comeback!

Yeah, I agree though I would rather have Outmaneuver than Daredevil. Cutting down an opponent's agility AND rolling 5 dice? that will hurt badly, the 5 shields on a Falcon don't looks so tough now do they? Of course the added benefit from there is with Vader being a Pseudo Wedge his 2 attack dice on all of his normal attacks doesn't hurt as much

Just to brown your shorts a little:

Vader w/ daredevil, eu, and prton rockets clocks in at 39 points. He has the equivalent of a 1 white k turn. Ps of 9 and is tanked as hell. And can deliver a focused targetlocked 5 die attack. I think the tie advanced just made a comeback!

How exactly is that the equivalent of a WHITE K-Turn when it gives him a stress token?

Just to brown your shorts a little:

Vader w/ daredevil, eu, and prton rockets clocks in at 39 points. He has the equivalent of a 1 white k turn. Ps of 9 and is tanked as hell. And can deliver a focused targetlocked 5 die attack. I think the tie advanced just made a comeback!

How exactly is that the equivalent of a WHITE K-Turn when it gives him a stress token?

Well he still gets his second action, so it is closeish but not nearly as good, since I believe there is quite a bit of lateral movement involved

You can do a green 2 Turn followed by action followed by red 1 turn from daredevil = nearly same as a 1 white k

Btw if first action is barrel roll its even closer to being a 1k

You can also Boost and Daredevil in the same turn with Vader, if you wanted to (for the seven extra points.) Not saying it would be a good idea, but he and A-wings with the new title will be the only ships capable of greater than 180 degree turns. 225 degrees, I believe, after a turn maneuver, banked boost, and then Daredevil.

You can also Boost and Daredevil in the same turn with Vader, if you wanted to (for the seven extra points.) Not saying it would be a good idea, but he and A-wings with the new title will be the only ships capable of greater than 180 degree turns. 225 degrees, I believe, after a turn maneuver, banked boost, and then Daredevil.

Depends if you count a EU/Daredevil on a Defender

According to MajorJuggler's regionals statistics thread, there have been 0 Advanced Proton Torpedoes so far finishing in the top 1/3 of regionals lists. That would imply that Advanced Proton Torpedoes are not worthwhile, and not a good benchmark for game balance.

I've said this before and will again... that list is a small sample size statistically.

According to MajorJuggler's regionals statistics thread, there have been 0 Advanced Proton Torpedoes so far finishing in the top 1/3 of regionals lists. That would imply that Advanced Proton Torpedoes are not worthwhile, and not a good benchmark for game balance.

I've said this before and will again... that list is a small sample size statistically.

There is an awful lot of data in that list, it may not be a prefect sample size, but it isn't irrelevant, for sure.

According to MajorJuggler's regionals statistics thread, there have been 0 Advanced Proton Torpedoes so far finishing in the top 1/3 of regionals lists. That would imply that Advanced Proton Torpedoes are not worthwhile, and not a good benchmark for game balance.

I've said this before and will again... that list is a small sample size statistically.

Sample size doesn't play into it. At all.

According to MajorJuggler's regionals statistics thread, there have been 0 Advanced Proton Torpedoes so far finishing in the top 1/3 of regionals lists. That would imply that Advanced Proton Torpedoes are not worthwhile, and not a good benchmark for game balance.

I've said this before and will again... that list is a small sample size statistically.

A small sample, but compared to what -- the entire population of X-wing players?

Even if it is small, isn't it exactly the sample of players/lists you want? Those are lists that come out in the top third, or at least the top cuts, at the largest X-wing tournaments available The group that is being sampled are the playing in the most competitive and largest competitions (both in number of games and people) out there and they are the winning lists. Not to mention, these are very likely the people playing the most games of X-wing in general and are more likely to be preparing and playing competitively (IE, to win) more often.

So, with regard to Advanced Proton Torpedoes (and a few other cards), either no one has brought advanced proton torpedoes to a regional or no one who has brought them has been able to win with them. Either way, that information -- and other statistics gathered relative to it -- is significant, isn't it? I just don't get how claiming small sample size is very a significant flaw in his study, and I'd almost think a case could be made that the opposite is true, more data from less competitive settings could actually muddy the waters more.

It's ludicrous to say that sample size doesn't factor into it.

Even taking it from your perspective, sample size is extremely important.

If we only have ten games in there, how do we know that one or two of the people aren't outliers flying something slightly experimental? We don't. So sample size is still important. Don't be absurd.

That being said, I do agree with you that it's all we have to go off of. And it's pretty good at that.

It's ludicrous to say that sample size doesn't factor into it.

Even taking it from your perspective, sample size is extremely important.

If we only have ten games in there, how do we know that one or two of the people aren't outliers flying something slightly experimental? We don't. So sample size is still important. Don't be absurd.

That being said, I do agree with you that it's all we have to go off of. And it's pretty good at that.

It doesn't matter what you're looking at data for, insufficient sample size is a serious problem.

Treat this as a poll. Even for the non-crunchy data points that you are looking for, we still have far too few participants to gain any conclusive data from.

To suggest otherwise makes you sound uneducated.

But whatever. Doesn't matter to me. I already said I think the stats are the best (only) thing we have to go off of.