a 1 attack dice increase at range 1 is questionable. On the Firespray its redundant. On everything else it's not as big an increase to the point it's barely worth the 3 points. Ooh, 4 dice versus 3 on a z-95 at range 1.

I guess I need to say it again: X-Wing is a game of opposed dice, and going from 3 attack dice to 4 attack dice is way more than a 33% increase in firepower. For a mere three points this is a very appealing option.

a 1 attack dice increase at range 1 is questionable. On the Firespray its redundant. On everything else it's not as big an increase to the point it's barely worth the 3 points. Ooh, 4 dice versus 3 on a z-95 at range 1.

I guess I need to say it again: X-Wing is a game of opposed dice, and going from 3 attack dice to 4 attack dice is way more than a 33% increase in firepower. For a mere three points this is a very appealing option.

Put another way: Dice imbalance is huge. And the jump from 3 to 4 is not just an extra damage, it's generating imbalance against Agility 3 ships.

According to MajorJuggler's regionals statistics thread, there have been 0 Advanced Proton Torpedoes so far finishing in the top 1/3 of regionals lists. That would imply that Advanced Proton Torpedoes are not worthwhile, and not a good benchmark for game balance.

Thanks kraedin.

At first I thought Major Rhymer could use them well, for 4 dice with Focus at Range 1-2. But then Concussion Missiles are only 1 point more, will work at Range 1-3 on Rhymer, and get a free hit. So, really, PRs are comparable here as well.

I guess the question is, how confident are you in getting that Z-95 up to range 1. I'm sorry, but it doesn't feel like a winning proposition to me. It is a decent choice for the Bomber. But, thanks to Jonus, their choices are all pretty decent when it comes to missiles. Seriously, the Assault + Cluster Missile combo is pretty nice when backed by Jonus.

I guess the question is, how confident are you in getting that Z-95 up to range 1.

Who cares? It cost 15 points.

I guess the question is, how confident are you in getting that Z-95 up to range 1. I'm sorry, but it doesn't feel like a winning proposition to me. It is a decent choice for the Bomber. But, thanks to Jonus, their choices are all pretty decent when it comes to missiles. Seriously, the Assault + Cluster Missile combo is pretty nice when backed by Jonus.

Admittedly, it may be different for a Headhunter, but I've had a lot more trouble with people jumping into Range 1 to prevent missile shots than I've had creating Focused R1 shots. Do people really see their ships dying en masse before getting to R1?

There's generally either 1 or even 0 rounds of fire before you hit R1. The only way even a Headhunter goes down in 1 round of fire is if the opponent is concentrating... and honestly, if they're concentrating on something like a Bandit with a Proton Rocket, then you just saved yourself 10 points over Biggs.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here:

Stealth Device.

Now, it's probably a questionable move to throw a stealth device on solely for the rocket, but, it may give two-evade ships a slight boost in using them. Ideally, we use it on two-evade, two-firepower ships for the greatest bonus. Here we have the tie bomber and the Z-95. Two ships that are already in the discussion.

A stealth device in a Z-95 turns it into an A-Wing. And if used on one of the named pilots, might be pretty decent.

Anyway. Just a thought. Only time (and copious play testing) will tell.

A stealth device in a Z-95 turns it into an A-Wing. And if used on one of the named pilots, might be pretty decent.

But it also makes it cost almost as much as an a-wing, and the z-95's third point of agility is only temporary. IMO once you start putting stealth devices on your z-95s you might as well just buy better ships with those points.

As for the named pilots, probably not. A proton rocket is a waste of Blount's incredibly valuable ability, and Cracken probably wants cluster missiles if you're going to give him any weapon upgrades.

What surprises me most about Proton Rockets is that FFG has now upped the max dice an attacker can throw at a defender. It has seemed in the past that they have done their best to keep it to a six dice pool maximum, but now with Proton Rockets, you can get an A-Wing up to SEVEN dice at range 1. Here's how:

Green Squadron Pilot (19) + Proton Rockets (3) + Opportunist (4) + Jan Ors.

Granted it's only for one attack, but to roll 7 Dice is stupidly powerful. This could even be tweaked to add some better reliability or damage if you really want to sink more points into it. For example, you could add a Munitions Failsafe to keep your rockets, if by some miracle, you MISS. or take a A-Wing Test Pilot upgrade and throw on Outmaneuver to have a mini-Wedge running around. 7 Dice while reducing the defender's agility by 1? I'll take it.

That being said, these things turn into one-shot ponies, and they get expensive as far as A-Wings go. Though with both Opportunist and Outmaneuver and Jan Ors on top of that, you could probably do some decent damage. I doubt it's the best tournament list, but it's certainly good for shock and awe.

What surprises me most about Proton Rockets is that FFG has now upped the max dice an attacker can throw at a defender. It has seemed in the past that they have done their best to keep it to a six dice pool maximum, but now with Proton Rockets, you can get an A-Wing up to SEVEN dice at range 1. Here's how:

Green Squadron Pilot (19) + Proton Rockets (3) + Opportunist (4) + Jan Ors.

Granted it's only for one attack, but to roll 7 Dice is stupidly powerful. This could even be tweaked to add some better reliability or damage if you really want to sink more points into it. For example, you could add a Munitions Failsafe to keep your rockets, if by some miracle, you MISS. or take a A-Wing Test Pilot upgrade and throw on Outmaneuver to have a mini-Wedge running around. 7 Dice while reducing the defender's agility by 1? I'll take it.

That being said, these things turn into one-shot ponies, and they get expensive as far as A-Wings go. Though with both Opportunist and Outmaneuver and Jan Ors on top of that, you could probably do some decent damage. I doubt it's the best tournament list, but it's certainly good for shock and awe.

Advanced Protons can also do this.

Also worth noting is that 7 dice is theoretically enough to 1-shot a FIRESPRAY. (4 Shields + 3 Direct Hit!s)

Why would every new upgrades should be a must have? I find it nice that Proton Rocket is not so good that suddenly every ship should take it but good enough to justify taking it in certain build.

2 things that I really like about Proton Rockets:

First, it's cheap. so even if it doesn't raise your attack at 5 dice like Advanced Proton Torpedoes on agility 2 ship, it still raise it to 4 like pretty much every other missiles and torpedoes. For 3 points, I think your opponent should think twice before going into range 1. The B-Wing that attacked your bomber at 4 dice vs 2 while taking 3vs 1, will suddenly take 4+F vs 1.

Second, it takes a focus instead of a TL. It means that you don't have to pick your target during activation phase but only when it is your time to attack. This is huge, especially on low PS ship like say... a Scimitar or Bandit Pilot. The fact that you also keep it means that you can use it on your shot, something that you can't do with pretty much any other missiles or tropedoes (except Homing and Ion missiles).

So, for 3 point, I think it will be a very good filler, like the Flechette Torpedo. Nothing game breaking or something you should build your strategy around, but something nice to have nonetheless.

Go face up with a Bomber with Proton Rocket and a Seismic charges. Where to go, can't stay in range 1 or you'll get a 4+F attack, can't go behind or you might get a Seismic Charges.

You're right. Silly me for not considering that.

a 1 attack dice increase at range 1 is questionable. On the Firespray its redundant. On everything else it's not as big an increase to the point it's barely worth the 3 points. Ooh, 4 dice versus 3 on a z-95 at range 1.

I guess I need to say it again: X-Wing is a game of opposed dice, and going from 3 attack dice to 4 attack dice is way more than a 33% increase in firepower. For a mere three points this is a very appealing option.

A single extra attack die over the course of a game is not a huge deal, and likely not worth 3 points. For 3 points I can put push the limit, Outmanuever, or Predator on a better ship. I can upgrade a Z-95 to an A-Wing. I can upgrade a generic ship to a named pilot. I can change a Rokkie X-Wing to a Dagger Squadron B-Wing. All of those options are just as good as, if not better than giving a Z-95 a single better range 1 shot. On the Imperial side, on a Bomber... maybe. But I think I'd rather have two Flechettes or a Flechette and a Proton Charge for one more point.

I guess the question is, how confident are you in getting that Z-95 up to range 1. I'm sorry, but it doesn't feel like a winning proposition to me. It is a decent choice for the Bomber. But, thanks to Jonus, their choices are all pretty decent when it comes to missiles. Seriously, the Assault + Cluster Missile combo is pretty nice when backed by Jonus.

I agree and this is what I consider when looking at Proton Rockets on my bombers. I'd rather have cluster missiles in most cases for their range flexibility and more dice, which I think is well worth the extra point.

There's also the sum total to consider when debating between long range missiles and proton rockets and not just the individual attacks of each. Sure, outside the game world in mathwing a 3 pt 4 dice attack sounds much better than a 4 point 4 dice attack, obviously, but it's not that simple.

Say I was debating proton rockets or concussion missile with a bomber. When firing a concussion missile at range 2-3 I get 4 red dice (with no additional green dice at R3). After that, if I want, I can still move into R1 the next turn and focus with my regular attack. I'll have had two attacks for a total of seven dice and two "effective" attacks. If I go with proton rockets, it's one ineffective two dice attack and one effective attack and one less overall attack dice. I save a point, but I do less damage overall. I'd much rather hit with the long range missiles first for the extra point as I'm overall doing more damage.

One thing the proton rockets vs. other missiles debate seems to be overlooking is the free deadeye upgrade with proton rockets. Getting a TL can be difficult sometimes, especially with low-PS ships. You might have to move first and not have your target in range yet, your other ships might kill the ship you're about to shoot and force you to wait until next turn to try again, etc. Proton rockets don't have this problem, take your usual focus action and if you've got a good shot at your PS step then kill something.

One thing the proton rockets vs. other missiles debate seems to be overlooking is the free deadeye upgrade with proton rockets. Getting a TL can be difficult sometimes, especially with low-PS ships. You might have to move first and not have your target in range yet, your other ships might kill the ship you're about to shoot and force you to wait until next turn to try again, etc. Proton rockets don't have this problem, take your usual focus action and if you've got a good shot at your PS step then kill something.

It`s a tradeoff. Deadeye leaves you either option. This one relegates you to a focus, which is better in some ways, but also disallows fire out of a K-Turn or when bumping. It would mean more with a longer range shot , but closing from out of range all the way to range 1 one movement phase, while possible, is unlikely. That said, Proton Rockets are slightly better on low PS Missiles because of this. Kind of. Still, it's a trade off, not a strict advantage.

One thing the proton rockets vs. other missiles debate seems to be overlooking is the free deadeye upgrade with proton rockets. Getting a TL can be difficult sometimes, especially with low-PS ships. You might have to move first and not have your target in range yet, your other ships might kill the ship you're about to shoot and force you to wait until next turn to try again, etc. Proton rockets don't have this problem, take your usual focus action and if you've got a good shot at your PS step then kill something.

Well, one thing that people are discounting on the other side with the proton rockets and the idea of the focus is that target lock carries over whereas focus doesn't. So, you can obtain a target lock in an earlier round, K-turn and or take another action and still fire those missiles later. With a proton rocket, you need to obtain your focus in the round you want to fire them, and that window is small, especially with a ship like the bomber (where we are debating the effectiveness of the rocket).

Well, one thing that people are discounting on the other side with the proton rockets and the idea of the focus is that target lock carries over whereas focus doesn't. So, you can obtain a target lock in an earlier round, K-turn and or take another action and still fire those missiles later. With a proton rocket, you need to obtain your focus in the round you want to fire them, and that window is small, especially with a ship like the bomber (where we are debating the effectiveness of the rocket).

Any situation that lets you TL on one round and focus on another before firing a traditional missile works just as well with a Proton Rocket.

Edit: And will generate a TL+F shot for doing so, just like Homing Missiles, rather than just a F shot.

Well, one thing that people are discounting on the other side with the proton rockets and the idea of the focus is that target lock carries over whereas focus doesn't. So, you can obtain a target lock in an earlier round, K-turn and or take another action and still fire those missiles later. With a proton rocket, you need to obtain your focus in the round you want to fire them, and that window is small, especially with a ship like the bomber (where we are debating the effectiveness of the rocket).

Any situation that lets you TL on one round and focus on another before firing a traditional missile works just as well with a Proton Rocket.

Edit: I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't talking about TL and focusing because in those situations you are correct. I'm talking about the advantage/disadvantage Iperegrine was talking about with regard to it being "difficult" to get a target lock,

It's not quite the same -- because of the limitation of the proton rocket only being able to be fired at R1. For example, say I have concussion missiles and TL a ship at R3. I bump the next turn, either accidentally or forced because of an opponent's move, and get no action. If I didn't bump my target locked ship, I can still likely fire my other missile at him. If I do bump my target or don't have a shot, I can K-Turn, or otherwise maneuver next turn to be able to get a shot off, especially if I'm not limited to range one. It's a move I've pulled quite a few times with my bomber squad, taking a TL purposefully a turn ahead, for various positioning reasons, and using it the next turn. It's going to be much harder to do and is a bigger limitation of the rockets since they are only range 1 and require the focus on the turn you fire them.

Well, one thing that people are discounting on the other side with the proton rockets and the idea of the focus is that target lock carries over whereas focus doesn't. So, you can obtain a target lock in an earlier round, K-turn and or take another action and still fire those missiles later. With a proton rocket, you need to obtain your focus in the round you want to fire them, and that window is small, especially with a ship like the bomber (where we are debating the effectiveness of the rocket).

Any situation that lets you TL on one round and focus on another before firing a traditional missile works just as well with a Proton Rocket.

Not quite -- because of the limitation of the proton rocket only being able to be fired at R1. For example, say I have concussion missiles and TL a ship at R3. I bump the next turn, either accidentally or forced because of an opponent's move, and get no action. If I didn't bump my target, I can still likely fire my other missile at him. If I do bump my target or don't have a shot, I can K-Turn, or otherwise maneuver next turn to be able to get a shot off, especially if I'm not limited to range one. It's a move I've pulled quite a few times with my bomber squad, taking a TL purposefully a turn ahead, for various positioning reasons, and using it the next turn. It's going to be much harder to do and is a bigger limitation of the rockets since they are only range 1 and require the focus on the turn you fire them.

That technically fits what he said. His wording was pretty careful. That said, he seems very dismissive of this value in favor of feeling slighted that they finally printed a useful missile. That's his choice. Me, I'm glad their starting to make useful ordnance and catching the issues with ordnance as it was.

Besides, I'm willing to bet that Stay on Target is one of the upgrade options he came up with. The one where you spend a target lock to fire ordnance you gain a free focus action or the like...

Well, one thing that people are discounting on the other side with the proton rockets and the idea of the focus is that target lock carries over whereas focus doesn't. So, you can obtain a target lock in an earlier round, K-turn and or take another action and still fire those missiles later. With a proton rocket, you need to obtain your focus in the round you want to fire them, and that window is small, especially with a ship like the bomber (where we are debating the effectiveness of the rocket).

Any situation that lets you TL on one round and focus on another before firing a traditional missile works just as well with a Proton Rocket.

Not quite -- because of the limitation of the proton rocket only being able to be fired at R1. For example, say I have concussion missiles and TL a ship at R3. I bump the next turn, either accidentally or forced because of an opponent's move, and get no action. If I didn't bump my target, I can still likely fire my other missile at him. If I do bump my target or don't have a shot, I can K-Turn, or otherwise maneuver next turn to be able to get a shot off, especially if I'm not limited to range one. It's a move I've pulled quite a few times with my bomber squad, taking a TL purposefully a turn ahead, for various positioning reasons, and using it the next turn. It's going to be much harder to do and is a bigger limitation of the rockets since they are only range 1 and require the focus on the turn you fire them.

That technically fits what he said. His wording was pretty careful. That said, he seems very dismissive of this value in favor of feeling slighted that they finally printed a useful missile. That's his choice. Me, I'm glad their starting to make useful ordnance and catching the issues with ordnance as it was.

Besides, I'm willing to bet that Stay on Target is one of the upgrade options he came up with. The one where you spend a target lock to fire ordnance you gain a free focus action or the like...

Yes, but it wasn't really the point I was responding to, which I clarified in my edit.

Kath or Boba with Recon Specialist, Proton Rockets and maybe PtL. Works with the Slave-1 upgrade (torpedo) and all around usefulness once the ordinance is away...

A stealth device in a Z-95 turns it into an A-Wing. And if used on one of the named pilots, might be pretty decent.

But it also makes it cost almost as much as an a-wing, and the z-95's third point of agility is only temporary. IMO once you start putting stealth devices on your z-95s you might as well just buy better ships with those points.As for the named pilots, probably not. A proton rocket is a waste of Blount's incredibly valuable ability, and Cracken probably wants cluster missiles if you're going to give him any weapon upgrades.

You realize the entire point of the z95 is a cheap missle platform and you can spam z95s with proton rockets like no other.

The only point I'm making is people are being dismissive of 2 agi ships with proton rockets and they are still a decent upgrade compared to other missiles especially if u have the points to use stealth devices on them.