After my foray into the Old West conversion, I started thinking I needed something even simpler... something that I could use to make a character in any setting I wanted. This has lead me to my new project: the "Down N Dirty Edge Generic Rules".

The worst part of creating my Old West conversion was creating the Careers and Specializations... I started thinking, if I can get rid of these, I could quickly get ANY genre up and running quick.

My plan is to make a 1-2 Page sheet on using the rules to make "Classless" characters.

More info coming soon.

Oooh!!Aren't you spiffy.

Sign me up cowboy!

Oooh!!Aren't you spiffy.

Sign me up cowboy!

Yeah me too.

I have a friend who wants to run an Old West campaign with EotE rules, and another who wants to run something Roman north of Hadrian's Wall. The Down and Dirty version sounds pretty useful!

I think this system is one of the few that could make for a super hero RPG that was actually good.

Are you listening Disney/Marvel?

I think this system is one of the few that could make for a super hero RPG that was actually good.

Are you listening Disney/Marvel?

Agreed. A super hero game begs over the top narration with interpretive dice rolls.

Yeah, I have toyed with doing a superhero one where the dice go up to 10 and normal humans can only have 1 - 4, using the old Marvel Superheroes game from TSR as a reference.

I could definitely see a supers game with this system. An obvious mechanics change might be to allow more than one destiny point on a roll to upgrade/downgrade the pool; this lets the super skilled humans like Batman or Punisher go toe to toe with more powerful beings by dumping more points on a roll.

The basic idea is all PCs are considered human and use rules for humans in the Core Rulebook. Other species can be created by using (or combining parts of) different species if your campaign needs them.

Skill:

Player chooses 10 Skills as their Career Skills. He then chooses 2 of thes as his Specialization and gives himself a free rank in those. Then if a human, gives himself 1 rank in 2 non career skills.

Talents:

They may choose from the entire list of Talents if they meet the following requirements:

• To go up a level in talent tier, the character must have two Talents purchased in the current tier. The exception is the 25 point tier. A character only needs one 20 point Talent to move onto the 25 point tier.
• No “Improved” Talent may be purchased without the base Talent. Likewise, no “Supreme” Talent may be purchased without the “Improved” one.
• While stackable Talents may be purchased at in any order at any cost tier, each tier value may be only purchased once.
• The Dedication Talent may only be purchased once.
• A character may not have any more than 4 Talents per Talent Tier (for a total of 20).

A character may “reset” the rules above by paying 30 xp to start over (equivalent of buying a new Specialization).

I am now in the middle of compiling a list of "universial costs" of the talents. I am thinking the answer for cost conflicts will be it can be bought at either price as needed to fill out the 20 slots.

I am going to make all Stackable Talents avalable at all costs. I may not allow more than 3 to be spent in any given set of 20 and when the continue on the next tree when resetting they can only buy the remaining 2 at whatever cost is leftover.

Another idea I am thinking of is forgoing the 30 xp cost to start over, and just have it they cannot make a new one until they fill their old one.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Oops forgot something else I added. Like Dedication, I may limit both the Natural and Master talents to one per set of 20.

It's more work on the front end, but Savage World's "experience Rank" might be a good approach.

You can classify certain talents in different tiers. "Novice", "Experienced", "Veteran", and "Master". Assign a certain XP threshold to the latter 3 ranks. Once the character's total XP earned exceeds the threshold, the player can now purchase talents of that level.

You could also limit the number of ranks of talents a player can purchase based on the characters level of experience.

Other ranked talents such as Force Rating and Dedication would have to be handled delicately or just slap a "May only be purchased at GM's discretion" label and call it a day.

It's more work on the front end, but Savage World's "experience Rank" might be a good approach.

Not a bad idea, however this is the kind of thing I am trying to avoid having to do.

After going through all the Talents and looking at their Point costs, there are a few that are "Ranked" that are only High point levels (like only 20 or 25). These Talents are kind of powerful which makes me think I should not generically say "all ranked Talents are available at all Cost Tiers." This leaves to at with the following idea:

"If I leave it that you can spend it at that cost if you can find it at that cost". This keeps me from having to update anything when supplements come out in two ways:

1. I do not need to "categorize" new Talents every time a new book comes out.
2. I do not need to point out that a new cost has been put out in a new book.

Let me expand on that last point. If a ranked talent in the Core Rulebook has the costs of 5, 15 and 20... Then that is the only ranks you can buy that Talent in. Now lets say next year a new book comes out with a new Specialization that has that same Talent at 10. I do not have to change my rules, but you could now get it at 10.

I am attempting to write this in a way that it would not need to update it. Just a simple set of guidlelines really.

As for your statement of GM discretion... I will be reminding ALL talents are at GM discretion due to setting. However, I am also writing in there that the GM and Player need to kind of Follow a "Theme" with all the talents... justify within the character why they would have them.

For example, you want a Medic Sniper? Perhaps he grew up in the mountains and his Father took him hunting every year, but he went to medical school but then was recruited by the CIA... no further explanation is needed... pull freely from stuff that kind of fits.

The only issue I would have is with what I would have with any classless system, is that people tend to pick and choose the best talents. With the career/specialization system you generally have to take some other talents on a way to the ones you really want.

I'm not a fan of min maxing.

If anything, i'd like to see a system more like the one from traveler. It still has some career structure, but many thingd are random.

I'd been looking at a fantasy conversion, and decided as much as I like a generic Talent purchasing system, I do think the system is better served with tailored specializations. Some of them you can rip wholesale, like Marauder.

If anything, i'd like to see a system more like the one from traveler. It still has some career structure, but many thingd are random.

It was amusing reading the old Traveller rules recently to see how far gaming philosophy has come. In the original rules you could die in character creation, and there was almost no decision-making as to how your character turned out. Even basic characteristics were random. I don't think any of that is very appealing, and if one has to take the time to make career trees, might as well make specialization trees and be done with it.

I think either I am not understanding how those rules for talents work. How do you figure a tier for various talents?

I'm already working on an EotE-like Superhero system. I'm just figuring out the Stats and designing the dice faces right now (based on powers).

This isn't my first time designing a game. Back in the late 80's/early 90's, I designed game systems for my friends and I, games like Appleseed (Masamune Shirow), AD Police (Bubblegum Crisis) and Aliens Colonial Marines (a few years before they actually made one - it didn't last long)

I think either I am not understanding how those rules for talents work. How do you figure a tier for various talents?

Talent Tiers:

• 5xp Tier
• 10xp Tier
• 15xp Tier
• etc

You must buy 2 5xp Talents before you can buy a 10... etc.

The only issue I would have is with what I would have with any classless system, is that people tend to pick and choose the best talents. With the career/specialization system you generally have to take some other talents on a way to the ones you really want.

I'm not a fan of min maxing.

I am not a fan of Min Maxing either, however this system does not really leand itself to my idea of min-max. I usually think of people dumping charaisma to 7 when I think of that. Besides, people are supposed to be building heroes, not shoe salesmen from Milwaukee. I think a lot of people complain about min-maxing have swung it too far in the other direction. As a GM, I have always not let players get away with dumping a stat or some disadvantage without it screwing them somewhere. This is how we play, and quite frequently it makes interesting situations where you have the socially enept character trying to talk the police into letting his friends out of the cop car.

However, as I said above, it is the GM and players responsibilty to weave the talents together so they make sense within the character's background... and, as always, the GM gets final approval anyway.

I'd been looking at a fantasy conversion, and decided as much as I like a generic Talent purchasing system, I do think the system is better served with tailored specializations. Some of them you can rip wholesale, like Marauder.

I too am going to do a full fantasy conversion too, waiting for the F&D book though to be able to round out magic more.

I can see your point, however I run my players through a lot of mini campaigns. I do not want to create 5 or 6 different specializations everytime we switch from old west, to cthulhu, to spies. This is what lead me to reworking it as classless, so honestly, I respect everyone's opinion, however this discussion is not on whether I should make a classless one, because I am making one regarless. I am more interested on thoughts on the system I cam up with, or more other ideas that might work better, etc.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the process I came up with? Suggestions?

So all the talents in the game are basically part of the same talent tree?

So for example, all you have to do is buy two 5 XP talents, two 10 XP talents, two 15 XP talents, and one 20 XP talent, and then after that you can just keep buying 25 XP talents?

So all the talents in the game are basically part of the same talent tree?

So for example, all you have to do is buy two 5 XP talents, two 10 XP talents, two 15 XP talents, and one 20 XP talent, and then after that you can just keep buying 25 XP talents?

Not in the slightest. Reread this section more closely.

Talents:

They may choose from the entire list of Talents if they meet the following requirements:

• To go up a level in talent tier, the character must have two Talents purchased in the current tier. The exception is the 25 point tier. A character only needs one 20 point Talent to move onto the 25 point tier.
• No “Improved” Talent may be purchased without the base Talent. Likewise, no “Supreme” Talent may be purchased without the “Improved” one.
• While stackable Talents may be purchased at in any order at any cost tier, each tier value may be only purchased once.
• The Dedication Talent may only be purchased once.
• A character may not have any more than 4 Talents per Talent Tier (for a total of 20).

A character may “reset” the rules above by paying 30 xp to start over (equivalent of buying a new Specialization).

I am now in the middle of compiling a list of "universial costs" of the talents. I am thinking the answer for cost conflicts will be it can be bought at either price as needed to fill out the 20 slots.

EDIT: Oops forgot something else I added. Like Dedication, I may limit both the Natural and Master talents to one per set of 20.

The last bullet point there is the key.

This thread got my creative juices flowing... and after playing and replaying X-Com over and over, I've been fooling around making rules for an X-Com squad-based group.

Basic weapons to start with. You gain experience and raise your rank (which gives talents) and I'm working on a Obligation-like structure based on the games "Science Research" - you put in points on what you want to research next on the science research tree.

I need to work on the firearms, which shouldn't be a problem. Creating the alien opponents will be a challenge.

Not in the slightest. Reread this section more closely.

So, how do you decide how much a Talent is worth? As your first Talent, you can pick any one you want for 5xp, provided it has no pre-reqs or isn't Dedication?

So, how do you decide how much a Talent is worth? As your first Talent, you can pick any one you want for 5xp, provided it has no pre-reqs or isn't Dedication?

Yeah, again, the GM and the Player should try to keep with a theme of talents... kind of putting the "Talent Tree Building" onto the player and GM as they make the character.

The talents are worth whatever you can find them for in the various Talent Trees in the Core Rules and Supplements. Ranked Talents you can buy where ever you can fit them as long as you meet the requirements. You can only buy a single Rank at a Single Teir. This prevents anyone from just buying 4 of the same ranked things at 5xp.

I had another idea... where there is a generic tree to follow instead of the "Must buy 2 before continuing" thing.

*5 - 05 - 05 - *5

| |

10 - 10 - 10 - 10

| |

15 - 15 - 15 - 15

| |

20 - 20 20 - 20

| | | |

25 - 25 25 - 25

Notice how this forces you to buy 2 before continuing. I would make a rule you must "start with the * 5xp slots and move in. Notice how it also has the 20s and 25s separated You need to down the other side to get the other 2 20s and 25s

I think I have decided to go with a generic fill-able Talent Tree. Not only does this illustrate the point of having to buy 2 Skills before moving on in each tier, but it also was a simple way to make them have to go back up and buy another 15xp Talent before going down another path to the 20s and 25s.

All characters are forced to start with the Green box and must follow a path.

On the right it looks like you can buy a 5, a single 10, then a 15 right away. Was that intentional?

I believe Brashfink mentioned that the players have to start with the green talent on the far left.

I believe Brashfink mentioned that the players have to start with the green talent on the far left.

Yep....

All characters are forced to start with the Green box and must follow a path.

I think I may have my first draft of this done by Monday.