Looks like the New A-wing pilot Gemmer Sojan is also a good candidate for the Proton rockets.

At Range 1:

Gemmer Sojan's dice = 2 + 3 (A wing's agility) + 1 (Gemmer's ability) + 1 (Stealth device) + 1 (opportunist) + 1 (Jan Ors) = 9

9 attack dice is pretty nifty for an alpha-strike, assuming the right conditions.

Add him with PTL, can TL and focus shoot...

The Tie Advanced well is pretty nifty too = 2 + 3 (Tie advance'd agility) + 1 (SD) + 1 (opportunist) = 7

Did I miss anything that will enhance its damage?

Thanks for the correction, ha ha. I missed that part.

*edit* Ninja'd.

Or should I say "Gemmered"?

I got sidetracked earlier today by the sheer negativity and sarcasm of your reply, Buhallin, when I was trying to have a genuine discussion about the merits of the new upgrades. But I was thinking further on your replies, the substance rather than the presentation.

I take your point about wishing for a more general "fix" for existing ordnance and other things. Besides Vorpal Sword's above analysis, which I wholly agree with, explaining why Proton Rockets don't "invalidate" all other missiles, there is another thing to consider.

You are complaining that the new missile is bad design, but I think you are looking at it wrong. The Proton Missile is good design for it's purpose. What is that purpose? To provide a missile that can be effectively played on an admittedly overcosted ship, without being broken good on other ships, such as the uber-cheap Z-95.

So it's a TARGETED design, and it works briliantly for that purpose. Look at the picture on the card, if you want to know what they intend to fix here. Don't complain that the card can't do something for which it is not intended.

FFG is already releasing Munitions Failsafe (which I know you also don't like), but which is a more general improvement on ordnance. Who knows what else they might come up with in the future? But for the Rebel Aces pack, this is a card which works for A-wings, and (I suspect not coincidentally) TIE Advanced best of all. I can't at all understand your position on why this is bad. You're entitled to not like it as a matter of taste, still.

All this talk of power creep and the new stuff being straight-up better. Think about all the named pilots from Waves 1-3 that you virtually NEVER see on the table. Winged Gundark, Fels Wrath, Ten Numb, Marek Steele, Horton, Arvel. Would you rather keep getting lame-duck named pilots for the life of the game so they can all sit in your cases and the game never has a chance to shift away from masses of low-PS generics?

The new releases have straight up better pilots in some cases, but they're costed appropriately (in my opinion), and that is a far better option than giving us another Arvel...

As for Proton Rockets being a straight upgrade for every other missile or torpedo, that's nonsense. First off, plenty of ships can't even take them, and for many they wouldn't be any good even if they could. It's a targeted upgrade for a couple specific ships, with plenty of restrictions to enable it's low cost. It comes back to the fact that in most cases Proton torps/concussions just aren't worth their cost. We can either continue that trend or get some options that may actually see play. I'll take the latter please!

As an A wing player....I must say BOOMSHACKA-FREAKING-LACKA!!!!!!

Ok now that is out of the way.....good god I can't wait to try out those new pilots, and I so want a nice blue A Wing to play with

Now my all A Wing list will have some serious bite to its bark

I'd much rather see missile enhancements like Jonus and Failsafe, that work to make the missiles we have more viable. Instead we get a missile that's pretty much the equivalent of the few good missiles we have, at half the cost. Proton Rockets basically invalidate every missile we've already got. It's dumb, lazy design, just like the Chardaan refit. Getting less and less impressed with the Rebel Aces design.

I agree rebel aces the more I see it the more broken and unbalancing that set is becoming.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

The only missile that has ever been valid is Assault Missile. The Ion missile is the next closest and it is still valid. Everything else. Every other Missile. Not worth it. At All. never has been.

Yes, it could be nice to see upgrades that make those missiles valid. They can still exist. On the Falcon, the Firespray, and most(read all) of the 2 agility Missile ships those upgrades can still be more useful than or just as useful as Proton Rockets.

This isn't a broken card. Just a usable missile. I can't believe people are upset about a usable missile... It's better than the lasts several useless missiles.

The Proton Rocket is amazing on named Falcons.

In fact, everyone who plays against me should spend 3 points to put one on their YTs.

I'd much rather see missile enhancements like Jonus and Failsafe, that work to make the missiles we have more viable. Instead we get a missile that's pretty much the equivalent of the few good missiles we have, at half the cost. Proton Rockets basically invalidate every missile we've already got. It's dumb, lazy design, just like the Chardaan refit. Getting less and less impressed with the Rebel Aces design.

I agree rebel aces the more I see it the more broken and unbalancing that set is becoming.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

Assuming you only use Agility 3 ships as missile carriers, that is to say, the TIE Advanced, which nobody plays right now, the TIE defender, which people already think is overpriced, and the A-wing, which Aces is meant to fix.

What other missile carriers do we have? For 2AGL we've got the TIE bomber and Z-95 as two attack ships. Here Proton Rockets is only a 4 damage missile. The Z-95 will likely get its head blown off before it fires this (remember you have to get to Range 1 to fire this, which a lot of people are forgetting). On the bomber you're probably looking for something that's more of a surefire hit. Compare it to Assault Missiles and you're paying two points for the splash and for a much more favourable range band. Against a swarm, that could double your damage output from the missile, and you're going to get to fire it in the first place.

On the Falcon it's completely redundant.

Assuming you only use Agility 3 ships as missile carriers, that is to say, the TIE Advanced, which nobody plays right now, the TIE defender, which people already think is overpriced, and the A-wing, which Aces is meant to fix.

What other missile carriers do we have? For 2AGL we've got the TIE bomber and Z-95 as two attack ships. Here Proton Rockets is only a 4 damage missile. The Z-95 will likely get its head blown off before it fires this (remember you have to get to Range 1 to fire this, which a lot of people are forgetting). On the bomber you're probably looking for something that's more of a surefire hit. Compare it to Assault Missiles and you're paying two points for the splash and for a much more favourable range band. Against a swarm, that could double your damage output from the missile, and you're going to get to fire it in the first place.

On the Falcon it's completely redundant.

A Scimitar could pack this, Ion Missiles or Flechettes, and a Munition Failsafe and still come in at a svelte 23 points.

I do like this as part of a Bomber Arsenal. Its another cheap option that lets it use more of its ordnance slots. I'm not so psyched with the Z95. I'd probably rather take a 16 point Z95 and shoot at range 3 with a Concussion then use the Rocket, personally. I don't really feel like 3 points for 1 bonus die on 1 attack is worth it.

Ships start beyond Range 3, and typically close to Range 3 or Range 2 for the first exchange. Obviously picking up TL for the first exchange is hard for some pilots, but except for that difficulty a secondary with Range 2-3 will almost certainly have a window where it can be used--the number of ships that can close from beyond Range 3 to Range 1 in a single turn can be counted on a blind butcher's fingers.

By contrast, there's no guarantee that Range 1 will ever occur in a given game; and although of course it's likely to happen at some point, it's hard to control when precisely you'll get that shot. So comparing a missile with Range 2-3 to Range 1 is apples to oranges: the former is an alpha-strike weapon, and the latter is more of a medium-term threat.

This is pretty much the complete opposite of what I've seen trying to fly Bomber-heavy squadrons.

For one thing, it depends heavily on PS. Anything with higher PS, you're hosed.

But even if you have the PS advantage, depending on how far out of range 3 you are, it's very possible for someone to jump you. You have to end up at least 2.5 bases away. You're moving a minimum 2 with Bombers (3 with an Advanced or A-wing), so that's 4.5. Everything short of B-wings can cover 5 bases pretty easily via a 4 ahead. 5 ahead will cover 6, boost can turn that into 8. So that means anywhere from 7.5 - just out of range - to 10.5 - almost two full range bands out of range - can end up at Range 1.

<shrug> Again, I've flown heavy bomber lists. Against people who are willing to close to your gap, everything shy of B- or Y-wings can do it. And that's when you have the PS advantage. If you don't... You're hosed.

Every game of X-wing I've ever played seems to be vastly different from some people. I've never had a shortage of Range 1 shots. I barely consider Range 1 a limitation.

What is that purpose? To provide a missile that can be effectively played on an admittedly overcosted ship, without being broken good on other ships, such as the uber-cheap Z-95.

And this is where we differ.

Whether it rises to the level of "broken" or not, IMHO there is pretty much zero reason to ever take any single-target-damage missile other than a Proton Rocket on anything AGI 2 or higher. It's the functional equivalent of Homing+Deadeye, with no EPT slot required, for literally half the cost. My experience with range seems to run counter to most, but I've spent a fair bit of time trying missile-heavy bomber lists. They use Jonus, because you need a way to make the attacks efficient. They also use both Assault Missiles and Cluster Missiles, because when you get jumped, you need a heavy shot at Range 1. There are any number of weaknesses - Jonus dies quick, someone gets in your face fast, and it's basically over. I see none of those weaknesses with the Proton Rocket. They have built-in efficiency. They have no range donut. And they're cheap.

Some people seem to think it's illegal to dislike what something does to the game unless the entire game is a smoking crater of unplayability by the time it's done. I don't think this is going to break the game. But it is going to solidly and permanently replace every other single-target damage missile in the game, and I stand by that as dumb, lazy design. Just like the Chardaan Refit is dumb, lazy design.

Late edit: And on Munitions Failure... It fixes a problem missiles didn't actually have, and does it in a way that actively encourages players to play to the worst problems of missiles. One of their greatest problems is low attack efficiency - for missiles to be playable they need ways to actually correct that low efficiency. Instead, we get a card that lets you make that same inefficient attack multiple times.

More great stuff. Stop it FFG, I can't afford it all

I'll echo most of the sentiments here and say that I'm liking the proton rockets. Interesting that they didn't mention the Test Pilot title card though - that puts a whole new spin on things allowing for combos of elite talents.

I've never had a shortage of Range 1 shots. I barely consider Range 1 a limitation.

It's not about range 1 being a limitation, it's about aiming for a range where you have an advantage. Proton rockets encourage you to move up to range 1 ASAP where you maximize your firepower but also maximize the firepower you're taking in return. It's an aggressive strategy that ends the game one way or another as fast as possible. A concussion or homing missile, on the other hand, encourages you to exploit the range 3 advantage where you have a 4-dice attack with no defense bonus against your opponent's 2-3 dice primary attack that gives you an extra defense die. It's a more defensive strategy that doesn't kill as fast but gives you a much better chance of inflicting a crippling alpha strike without losing much in return.

Anyway, the "problems" with missiles have way more to do with the ship than the weapon. Before wave 4 there just haven't been any good platforms for them. The a-wing and TIE advanced lock you into building your list around an overpriced ship, y-wings and YT-1300s are built around their turrets, and x-wings and b-wings pay too many points for that nice 3-dice primary gun to spend even more points on a one-shot secondary weapon. The TIE bomber has been the best candidate so far, but is hindered by having the very appealing alternative of the seismic charge swarm. The z-95 is the first real opportunity we've had to try missiles on a decent platform, and I suspect we're going to see a lot of them.

They also use both Assault Missiles and Cluster Missiles, because when you get jumped, you need a heavy shot at Range 1.

Not really. Bombers take cluster missiles because the two independent attacks are the best way to take advantage of the Jonus re-roll, if cluster missiles were range 2-3 you'd still see the exact same list choices.

Not really. Bombers take cluster missiles because the two independent attacks are the best way to take advantage of the Jonus re-roll, if cluster missiles were range 2-3 you'd still see the exact same list choices.

Looks like the New A-wing pilot Gemmer Sojan is also a good candidate for the Proton rockets.

At Range 1:

Gemmer Sojan's dice = 2 + 3 (A wing's agility) + 1 (Gemmer's ability) + 1 (Stealth device) + 1 (opportunist) + 1 (Jan Ors) = 9

9 attack dice is pretty nifty for an alpha-strike, assuming the right conditions.

Add him with PTL, can TL and focus shoot...

The Tie Advanced well is pretty nifty too = 2 + 3 (Tie advance'd agility) + 1 (SD) + 1 (opportunist) = 7

Did I miss anything that will enhance its damage?

You missed the max damage of Proton Rockets being 5.

Ending up at range 1-2 is easier than range 2-3, but range 1 specifically isn't so easy. The fact that you only need a focus token helps a lot, though, as you can fire them 'on spec' as targets present themselves.

And yes, Vader will love these. I've been playing around with Vader, Stele and a Tempest Squadron Pilot with Homing missiles on the two named boys, and it worked okay - putting Proton Rockets on them works well, and also leaves enough points saved to give Vader Opportunist (and, since you don't necessarily need TL+Focus, possibly swap Stele's Push The Limit for Opportunist too).

knowing that an advanced has a potential 6 dice focused shot in its tubes is going to make people much more cautious around them...

Then you engage in prognostication couched again in hyperbolic language: the Proton Rocket is "going to solidly and permanently replace every other single-target damage missile in the game." So that's...cluster missiles, which is not good already outside of very specific situations, and ...concussion missile and homing missile. Surely you can't complain that a missile as bad as cluster missiles should be designed down to when releasing new ordnance. Others in this thread have already pointed out that they would not choose Proton Rockets on Agility 2 ships, although you would. So again, we are back to your taste in playstyle being presented as universal truth. When the Range restriction is pointed out, you simply dismiss that as irrelevant since you personally can get R1 shots whenever you like. Maybe Proton Rockets will replace Concussions and Homing Missiles in all your builds, but this is not necessarily so for everyone, which is what your language suggests.

edit: the quote tags are misbehaving, but I tried to make it clear as I could.

What is that purpose? To provide a missile that can be effectively played on an admittedly overcosted ship, without being broken good on other ships, such as the uber-cheap Z-95.

Buhallin said:

And this is where we differ.

Whether it rises to the level of "broken" or not, IMHO there is pretty much zero reason to ever take any single-target-damage missile other than a Proton Rocket on anything AGI 2 or higher. It's the functional equivalent of Homing+Deadeye, with no EPT slot required, for literally half the cost. My experience with range seems to run counter to most, but I've spent a fair bit of time trying missile-heavy bomber lists. They use Jonus, because you need a way to make the attacks efficient. They also use both Assault Missiles and Cluster Missiles, because when you get jumped, you need a heavy shot at Range 1. There are any number of weaknesses - Jonus dies quick, someone gets in your face fast, and it's basically over. I see none of those weaknesses with the Proton Rocket. They have built-in efficiency. They have no range donut. And they're cheap.

Some people seem to think it's illegal to dislike what something does to the game unless the entire game is a smoking crater of unplayability by the time it's done. I don't think this is going to break the game. But it is going to solidly and permanently replace every other single-target damage missile in the game, and I stand by that as dumb, lazy design. Just like the Chardaan Refit is dumb, lazy design.

So much hyperbole here. Considering no one has shut you up, but rather I and some others have actively engaged and solicited your opinion, it's insulting for you to insinuate that you are a First Amendment martyr at the hands of "some people." Since you were replying to me, I assume you mean me. Rather than let your implication stand, I will state that you are of course entitled to your opinion, even if it might be wished that you would express it with a bit more grace.

But back to the content of your complaint. Calling it lazy and dumb is a pointless insult. FFG was certainly too lazy to create a new design which was tailor made to fit your personal experience and playstyle, which you yourself say is contrary to the majority of players. Other smart players besides yourself have offered up reasons why it is not dumb.

Then you engage in prognostication couched again in hyperbolic language: the Proton Rocket is "going to solidly and permanently replace every other single-target damage missile in the game." So that's...cluster missiles, which is not good already outside of very specific situations, and ...concussion missile and homing missile. Surely you can't complain that a missile as bad as cluster missiles should be designed down to when releasing new ordnance. Others in this thread have already pointed out that they would not choose Proton Rockets on Agility 2 ships, although you would. So again, we are back to your taste in playstyle being presented as universal truth. When the Range restriction is pointed out, you simply dismiss that as irrelevant since you personally can get R1 shots whenever you like. Maybe Proton Rockets will replace Concussions and Homing Missiles in all your builds, but this is not necessarily so for everyone, which is what your language suggests.

edit: the quote tags are misbehaving, but I tried to make it clear as I could.

I find it odd he didn' complain this much about Flechette's which are by far the most useful of the Torpedos.

And yes, Vader will love these. I've been playing around with Vader, Stele and a Tempest Squadron Pilot with Homing missiles on the two named boys, and it worked okay - putting Proton Rockets on them works well, and also leaves enough points saved to give Vader Opportunist (and, since you don't necessarily need TL+Focus, possibly swap Stele's Push The Limit for Opportunist too).

If you drop one of the named you can end up with 1 named, 2 storms, with protons and engine upgrades, for extra maneuverability.

As soon as the Decimator releases, I'm looking at 2 Advanceds with Protons and a Lambda with a Fleet Officer, Engine Upgrades all round, probably Vader with Squad Leader as well.

am I the only one who wants to run 4 Green Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets, Test Pilot, Push the limit, and WIngman? 4 GSP's that PTL for no stress, flying in formation, tossing a 5 dice rocket the first time they are in range 1? Yes please!

am I the only one who wants to run 4 Green Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets, Test Pilot, Push the limit, and WIngman? 4 GSP's that PTL for no stress, flying in formation, tossing a 5 dice rocket the first time they are in range 1? Yes please!

I think you're over 100 there.

am I the only one who wants to run 4 Green Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets, Test Pilot, Push the limit, and WIngman? 4 GSP's that PTL for no stress, flying in formation, tossing a 5 dice rocket the first time they are in range 1? Yes please!

I think you're over 100 there.

Yup, I was counting the refit in there too somehow... oh well

am I the only one who wants to run 4 Green Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets, Test Pilot, Push the limit, and WIngman? 4 GSP's that PTL for no stress, flying in formation, tossing a 5 dice rocket the first time they are in range 1? Yes please!

I think you're over 100 there.

Yup, I was counting the refit in there too somehow... oh well

Even with Refit it wouldn't have put you below 100. .

am I the only one who wants to run 4 Green Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets, Test Pilot, Push the limit, and WIngman? 4 GSP's that PTL for no stress, flying in formation, tossing a 5 dice rocket the first time they are in range 1? Yes please!

I think you're over 100 there.

Yup, I was counting the refit in there too somehow... oh well

Even with Refit it wouldn't have put you below 100. .

Nah, 19 + 3 + 3 + 2 - 2 = 25, x4 is 100. So you're right, I wouldnt have been below 100, but I also wouldn't have been above it. You CAN do 4 GSP with Wingman, PTL, and Hull Upgrades with refit for 100... i like that idea too. Not as much bite, but a lot more defense to poke through