I like the Idea of a mod like that (I think I posted something like that somewhere awhile ago) that said Proton Rockets are still nice to help out the Advanced (shame you can't take 4 Storms with Proton Rockets)

If the Adv. (except Vader perhaps) would come with these rockets equipped for free the ships just might be viable.

So I'm guessing the Proton Rockets play nice with Dark Curse? You're not actually spending the Focus token, and you're not re-rolling, so DC's ability shouldn't hinder you from shoving one of these at him, right?

I can't decide if these are going to be a good choice for Arvel or not. His ability is based on crashing into things, which means no Focus actions, and his PS makes it unlikely that he'll be the blocker. But if his movement ends just shy of base contact, he'll be able to light someone up.

So I'm guessing the Proton Rockets play nice with Dark Curse? You're not actually spending the Focus token, and you're not re-rolling, so DC's ability shouldn't hinder you from shoving one of these at him, right?

Makes sense to me.

I can't decide if these are going to be a good choice for Arvel or not. His ability is based on crashing into things, which means no Focus actions, and his PS makes it unlikely that he'll be the blocker. But if his movement ends just shy of base contact, he'll be able to light someone up.

But that's true of any of the A-wings. In that case, I'd rather have Gemmer Sojan.

Those aren't bad ideas, but the potential problem is their scope. An EPT is limited to ships that can take it (High PS ships or A-wings with the Test Pilot card -- unless that's also a "dumb" upgrade you want to chuck out.). The Mod you suggest could be taken by any ship (unless you meant A-wing only) and might have the potential for abuse by other ship types.

Like I said, these ideas aren't bad, but they don't seem intrinsically better than what FFG has come up with. You just don't like them, but your insistence that they invalidate previous missiles is hyperbole. As Vorpal pointed out, the Range difference requires a different playstyle. Also, nothing about Proton Rockets is comparable to the area of effect that Assault missiles achieves.

Whoops, I forgot the rules of "What's your solution, genius?" - the suggested solution is never going to be good enough.

Yes, they're limited - that's why I offered different types, including a mod. If the problem is missiles, and not the ships, there's nothing about a mod that becomes abusable if it's on different ships.

Whether they're better is, of course, a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the problem with most missiles isn't their cost, it's the inherent difficulty of using them, and that without excessive effort they generate low-quality shots. The problem with fixing missiles by introducing new, cheaper missiles is that it does invalidate previous ones. Yes, Assault Missile will still be unique... but Proton Rockets are very close to Homing Missiles, for 2 points cheaper.

We're getting an increasing wave of new cards, ships, and pilots who are just hands-down cheaper and better.

Hey Rebel Scums!

Say hi to Carnor Jax!

Hey Rebel Scums!

Say hi to Carnor Jax!

Carnor just keeps on getting better.

Those aren't bad ideas, but the potential problem is their scope. An EPT is limited to ships that can take it (High PS ships or A-wings with the Test Pilot card -- unless that's also a "dumb" upgrade you want to chuck out.). The Mod you suggest could be taken by any ship (unless you meant A-wing only) and might have the potential for abuse by other ship types.

Like I said, these ideas aren't bad, but they don't seem intrinsically better than what FFG has come up with. You just don't like them, but your insistence that they invalidate previous missiles is hyperbole. As Vorpal pointed out, the Range difference requires a different playstyle. Also, nothing about Proton Rockets is comparable to the area of effect that Assault missiles achieves.

Whoops, I forgot the rules of "What's your solution, genius?" - the suggested solution is never going to be good enough.

Yes, they're limited - that's why I offered different types, including a mod. If the problem is missiles, and not the ships, there's nothing about a mod that becomes abusable if it's on different ships.

Whether they're better is, of course, a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the problem with most missiles isn't their cost, it's the inherent difficulty of using them, and that without excessive effort they generate low-quality shots. The problem with fixing missiles by introducing new, cheaper missiles is that it does invalidate previous ones. Yes, Assault Missile will still be unique... but Proton Rockets are very close to Homing Missiles, for 2 points cheaper.

We're getting an increasing wave of new cards, ships, and pilots who are just hands-down cheaper and better.

Proton Rocket honestly doesn't invalidate other missiles. Their own mechanics do. Finding a way to make them valid is only going to raise the cost.

Your solutions would sort of work. But even then, the point costs are still lackluster on most missiles. Even with focus and target lock a Homing Missile is not worth 5 points. At the same time it performs nothing like the Proton Rocket. It requires but doesn't spend a target lock, something that could have been there for a long time. Proton Rockets require a focus, meaning the ship firing them needed to focus that very turn. Pros and cons ar still present. One was just designed badly long ago while the other was designed intelligently recently.

The only missiles that matter are the ones with good secondary effects. Homing and Concussion missiles are both awful. Nothing short of a cost reduction would fix that.

Deleted. Not worth it.

For what it is worth, I think we would see a lot more proton torpedos if they were 3 points. They are good just over costed.

I like proton rockets, they are decent and mostly benefit ships that needed it. I think chaardan refit is too big a benefit to use these on anything other than than named A-wings. Though a-wings have easy access to outmaneuver which may be the best card yet to combo with ordnance (maybe more so late game than early).

Imperials could get great use out of proton rocket on some Tie advanced (particularly when fleet officer joins the card pool) but without better pilots it's not going to be sweeping the meta.

I think it is a pretty well designed card in my mind.

Add Stealth Device, 7 dice attack.

Edit: nevermind, limit of max 3 more. So "only" 5 attack max.

Double edit: not requiring target lock, and not requiring spending a focus token is totally crazy. And it's only 3 points! I'll have to run the numbers later, but this is almost as good as an Advanced Proton Torpedo if you F+TL your target.

Pretty awesome cards and must have expansion!!!

Whether they're better is, of course, a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the problem with most missiles isn't their cost, it's the inherent difficulty of using them, and that without excessive effort they generate low-quality shots. The problem with fixing missiles by introducing new, cheaper missiles is that it does invalidate previous ones. Yes, Assault Missile will still be unique... but Proton Rockets are very close to Homing Missiles, for 2 points cheaper.

We're getting an increasing wave of new cards, ships, and pilots who are just hands-down cheaper and better.

I guess we can quibble about what "hands-down better" means in terms of degrees, and I think it's tough to have both ways with regard to new ships being "cheaper and better."

We're putting the designers in a bad position if we argue Marek Steele's ability isn't great and he's overcosted and then expect Etahn Abaht, whose ability is similar, to be similarly overcosted. It's not really fair to observe that Ibby and Ten Numb don't get much play because regular B-Wings are cheaper, so those named pilots should be cheaper and then complain about Farlander's cost. Or in this case, either a missile is appropriately costed or it's not.

Either the designers stick with the original costing model when the game was very small and had a small group of playtesters who were also new to the game, or they try and get it correct and introduce cards that are more appropriately costed based on more experience and understanding. If they stick with the former, missiles, for example, aren't going to ever be more useful or effective (unless paired with another card all the time as you suggest, which to me seems like bad game design since I'd think we want cards to work on their own). I think they're trying to do the latter, and it's way better game design.

But, Maarek's abilty gains a whole new life in Epic play, vs the 10 card damage decks of Epic ships. Hell, Arvel's ability gets interesting when you combine him with a way to get a Focus and a Proton Rocket.

The Proton Rocket is great design, as it's viability is different for different ships.

Don't know if anyone caught it or not, but in addition to the proton rocket card we also got our first look at the new A-Wing Pilot (Gemmer Sojan)

Anyone have any initial thoughts on him? Seems like an interesting ability, especially when combined with a stealth device. Too bad he doesn't have an EPT slot.

Either the designers stick with the original costing model when the game was very small and had a small group of playtesters who were also new to the game, or they try and get it correct and introduce cards that are more appropriately costed based on more experience and understanding. If they stick with the former, missiles, for example, aren't going to ever be more useful or effective (unless paired with another card all the time as you suggest, which to me seems like bad game design since I'd think we want cards to work on their own). I think they're trying to do the latter, and it's way better game design.

I'm not arguing that missiles, or Maarek, are fine. I just think the approach they're taking is very ham-handed. Flat-out point cost breaks for the A-wing, 3-point missiles that match 6-point equivalents... It's clumsy and screams of a lack of interesting ideas.

I'd always rather see fixes to make existent elements useful, rather than replacing them with new ones.

There's an added risk with X-wing, though, in that some of what you're replacing is so iconic. Even in some of the minor cases, like Maarek, there are many people who aren't thrilled with the idea of him being binder fodder... but to consign something like Proton Torpedoes to the box forever? That's going to be a problem in the long run if obscure, strangely-named weapons become blatantly and obviously better than the one projectile every Star Wars fan knows the name of.

I also disagree pretty strongly that we only want cards that work on their own. Synergistic cards and abilities are one of the things that keep game design interesting, and more than just who can put the most dice on target. Not only do they help diversify builds, requiring commitment in order to use them avoids the problem of powerful cards dropped into builds that otherwise don't really relate.

But, Maarek's abilty gains a whole new life in Epic play, vs the 10 card damage decks of Epic ships. Hell, Arvel's ability gets interesting when you combine him with a way to get a Focus and a Proton Rocket.

The Proton Rocket is great design, as it's viability is different for different ships.

Also Maarek throwing 5 Dice with a proton rocket certainly increases his chance of a crit, too bad marksmanship can't be used to launch the missile, as you still need a way for him to generate the focus, (fleet officer being the only way for now,)

does Expose have a place on Gemmer - if you can add a second action - Kyle, Dutch, Garven, Airen Cracken, Squad leader, Lando..... He doesn't "suffer" the agility penalty when at range one of an enemy....

Either the designers stick with the original costing model when the game was very small and had a small group of playtesters who were also new to the game, or they try and get it correct and introduce cards that are more appropriately costed based on more experience and understanding. If they stick with the former, missiles, for example, aren't going to ever be more useful or effective (unless paired with another card all the time as you suggest, which to me seems like bad game design since I'd think we want cards to work on their own). I think they're trying to do the latter, and it's way better game design.

I'm not arguing that missiles, or Maarek, are fine. I just think the approach they're taking is very ham-handed. Flat-out point cost breaks for the A-wing, 3-point missiles that match 6-point equivalents... It's clumsy and screams of a lack of interesting ideas.

I'd always rather see fixes to make existent elements useful, rather than replacing them with new ones.

There's an added risk with X-wing, though, in that some of what you're replacing is so iconic. Even in some of the minor cases, like Maarek, there are many people who aren't thrilled with the idea of him being binder fodder... but to consign something like Proton Torpedoes to the box forever? That's going to be a problem in the long run if obscure, strangely-named weapons become blatantly and obviously better than the one projectile every Star Wars fan knows the name of.

I also disagree pretty strongly that we only want cards that work on their own. Synergistic cards and abilities are one of the things that keep game design interesting, and more than just who can put the most dice on target. Not only do they help diversify builds, requiring commitment in order to use them avoids the problem of powerful cards dropped into builds that otherwise don't really relate.

That's fine, and I get your point, but a couple of things.

1. I think Proton Torpedoes are pretty much binder fodder anyway -- and that's from the start. While I know you think Proton Rockets are going to replace other missiles, I just don't agree on most ships.

2. On your last point, we'll have to agree to disagree, or there's a semantics problem. I think synergy can be achieved and is better game design when it's done without overpricing one card, requiring the use of another.

That's fine, and I get your point, but a couple of things.

1. I think Proton Torpedoes are pretty much binder fodder anyway -- and that's from the start. While I know you think Proton Rockets are going to replace other missiles, I just don't agree on most ships.

2. On your last point, we'll have to agree to disagree, or there's a semantics problem. I think synergy can be achieved and is better game design when it's done without overpricing one card, requiring the use of another.

I agree that they're binder fodder now... but that doesn't mean they can't be upgraded. A-wings were generally binder fodder before the Chardaan, now everyone's frothing for them. For the second, intentionally restricting a card unless it's used along with something else is a perfectly common design choice. I don't know that I'd intentionally overpower it, but there are reasons that certain abilities end up on Astromechs instead of, say, Crew. Same basic idea.

I don't think you'd generally use cost as the limiter there... but it's what we've got. So how do we deal with it? We can either directly reduce the cost of certain elements (errata, or Chardaan), we can print new elements that dramatically reduce the cost compared to similar effects (Proton Rocket) or we can add abilities which improve the usefulness by letting you take something that removes the limitations or drawbacks. Consider something like the "Secondary Magazine" (what I'd call the discard-this-instead-of-a-missile mod). A Proton Torp is overpriced at 4 points for a single shot. What about 4 points for 2 shots? Or 5 points? "Bypassed Safety Interlocks" - fire a missile at Range 1-3, if the target is outside the normal range roll for a damage.

That's just top-of-the-head thoughts. But I'd find it all more interesting than basically being told that Homing and Concussion Missiles are bird cage liners now.

Edit: It's worth pointing out that I don't think that direction has even been tried. The missile-enhancing options we've got are either very expensive (Jonus), hard to use (Jonus), or pretty pitiful (Munitions Failsafe).

Don't know if anyone caught it or not, but in addition to the proton rocket card we also got our first look at the new A-Wing Pilot (Gemmer Sojan)

Anyone have any initial thoughts on him? Seems like an interesting ability, especially when combined with a stealth device. Too bad he doesn't have an EPT slot.

But, he DOES have an EPT Slot. Give him the title. He only gets one instead of two, but I bet he won't cry about it.

I love the proton rockets. It doesn't seem like power creep at all, just beginning to solve earlier mistakes in point costs. It'll be good to see A-Wings and maybe even Tie Advanced in use again.

I'm a little disappointed that the A-Wing seems to be painted blue & white rather than the blue & grey they showed initially.

I'd much rather see missile enhancements like Jonus and Failsafe, that work to make the missiles we have more viable. Instead we get a missile that's pretty much the equivalent of the few good missiles we have, at half the cost. Proton Rockets basically invalidate every missile we've already got. It's dumb, lazy design, just like the Chardaan refit. Getting less and less impressed with the Rebel Aces design.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

I'd much rather see missile enhancements like Jonus and Failsafe, that work to make the missiles we have more viable. Instead we get a missile that's pretty much the equivalent of the few good missiles we have, at half the cost. Proton Rockets basically invalidate every missile we've already got. It's dumb, lazy design, just like the Chardaan refit. Getting less and less impressed with the Rebel Aces design.

I agree rebel aces the more I see it the more broken and unbalancing that set is becoming.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

Yes, it could be nice to see upgrades that make those missiles valid. They can still exist. On the Falcon, the Firespray, and most(read all) of the 2 agility Missile ships those upgrades can still be more useful than or just as useful as Proton Rockets.

This isn't a broken card. Just a usable missile. I can't believe people are upset about a usable missile... It's better than the lasts several useless missiles.

That's fine, and I get your point, but a couple of things.

1. I think Proton Torpedoes are pretty much binder fodder anyway -- and that's from the start. While I know you think Proton Rockets are going to replace other missiles, I just don't agree on most ships.

2. On your last point, we'll have to agree to disagree, or there's a semantics problem. I think synergy can be achieved and is better game design when it's done without overpricing one card, requiring the use of another.

I agree that they're binder fodder now... but that doesn't mean they can't be upgraded. A-wings were generally binder fodder before the Chardaan, now everyone's frothing for them. For the second, intentionally restricting a card unless it's used along with something else is a perfectly common design choice. I don't know that I'd intentionally overpower it, but there are reasons that certain abilities end up on Astromechs instead of, say, Crew. Same basic idea.

I don't think you'd generally use cost as the limiter there... but it's what we've got. So how do we deal with it? We can either directly reduce the cost of certain elements (errata, or Chardaan), we can print new elements that dramatically reduce the cost compared to similar effects (Proton Rocket) or we can add abilities which improve the usefulness by letting you take something that removes the limitations or drawbacks. Consider something like the "Secondary Magazine" (what I'd call the discard-this-instead-of-a-missile mod). A Proton Torp is overpriced at 4 points for a single shot. What about 4 points for 2 shots? Or 5 points? "Bypassed Safety Interlocks" - fire a missile at Range 1-3, if the target is outside the normal range roll for a damage.

That's just top-of-the-head thoughts. But I'd find it all more interesting than basically being told that Homing and Concussion Missiles are bird cage liners now.

Edit: It's worth pointing out that I don't think that direction has even been tried. The missile-enhancing options we've got are either very expensive (Jonus), hard to use (Jonus), or pretty pitiful (Munitions Failsafe).

I'm surprised at how negative you're being, here, and that you're still missing the critical difference between Proton Rockets and every other missile or torpedo except the APT: it has a very punitive range restriction. Ships start beyond Range 3, and typically close to Range 3 or Range 2 for the first exchange. Obviously picking up TL for the first exchange is hard for some pilots, but except for that difficulty a secondary with Range 2-3 will almost certainly have a window where it can be used--the number of ships that can close from beyond Range 3 to Range 1 in a single turn can be counted on a blind butcher's fingers.

By contrast, there's no guarantee that Range 1 will ever occur in a given game; and although of course it's likely to happen at some point, it's hard to control when precisely you'll get that shot. So comparing a missile with Range 2-3 to Range 1 is apples to oranges: the former is an alpha-strike weapon, and the latter is more of a medium-term threat.

And that's without even considering context. The missiles are best on ships with 3 Agility, and acceptable on ships with 2 Agility. The missiles are also only usable when Agility + 2 >= Attack + 1 (because the missiles are always competing with a Range 1 primary weapon attack). So for ships with Attack > Agility, it's flat-out a bad upgrade; for ships with Attack = Agility, it's 3 points for +1 Attack, once, and only at Range 1. Compare that to Opportunist, which isn't hard to trigger and works at any range, and 3 points starts to look like a fair cost (or even a slightly bad bargain) for these guys.

Which leaves us with ships that have 2-3 Agility and Agility > Attack. Proton Rockets look great, here, as long as you can (a) get a Focus token on (b) the turn you arrive at Range 1 without © being killed before you can drop your payload. That's not a huge restriction, particularly if you move like an A-wing, but it's not nothing.

I agree rebel aces the more I see it the more broken and unbalancing that set is becoming.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

You can't be serious.

I'd much rather see missile enhancements like Jonus and Failsafe, that work to make the missiles we have more viable. Instead we get a missile that's pretty much the equivalent of the few good missiles we have, at half the cost. Proton Rockets basically invalidate every missile we've already got. It's dumb, lazy design, just like the Chardaan refit. Getting less and less impressed with the Rebel Aces design.

I agree rebel aces the more I see it the more broken and unbalancing that set is becoming.

While I think this rocket is great for the advanced and awing it is single handily invalidating other missles.

My only concern with Aces is Keyan Farlander, the ability to basically stress himself for a free focus and potentially remove a stress eyeballs or no eyeballs (I'm not 100% on this either way, I understand both arguments and I will wait for the FAQ to come out, and yes this is similar to Soontir, but Soontir remains stressed and still has to clear it some how rather than receiving a benefit with as some would argue no downside) Farrel is good but I think he is closer to a Tycho/Soontir level rather than better than them

Looks like the New A-wing pilot Gemmer Sojan is also a good candidate for the Proton rockets.

At Range 1:

Gemmer Sojan's dice = 2 + 3 (A wing's agility) + 1 (Gemmer's ability) + 1 (Stealth device) + 1 (opportunist) + 1 (Jan Ors) = 9

9 attack dice is pretty nifty for an alpha-strike, assuming the right conditions.

Add him with PTL, can TL and focus shoot...

The Tie Advanced well is pretty nifty too = 2 + 3 (Tie advance'd agility) + 1 (SD) + 1 (opportunist) = 7

Did I miss anything that will enhance its damage?