You ran "your" numbers not "the" numbers.

Can you define the difference between the two?

When you say "the" it seems to imply that yours are the only ones to run, and that your conclusions are the only ones to use. You have applied tremendous amounts of statistical analysis to arrive at a number to rate ships on. Those are your numbers. "The" numbers probably belong to FFG. Both sets are probably not perfect, and have resulted in some surprises. With so many variables in a game that I cant even comprehend how anyone would measure I just prefer to see how ships do in an actual game.

This idea could be fun;

Cracken+cluster missiles (and PTL)

2x Bandit + (Concussion) Missiles

58/100pts

3 TL+F Missiles is a nice alpha strike. You can switch around some things depending on the rest of your squad.

When you say "the" it seems to imply that yours are the only ones to run, and that your conclusions are the only ones to use. You have applied tremendous amounts of statistical analysis to arrive at a number to rate ships on. Those are your numbers. "The" numbers probably belong to FFG. Both sets are probably not perfect, and have resulted in some surprises. With so many variables in a game that I cant even comprehend how anyone would measure I just prefer to see how ships do in an actual game.

Thanks, I guess, although I don't know that "tremendous" is actually a terribly accurate word. To make an important distinction, probability does not "belong" to anyone any more than gravity "belongs" to Sir Issac Newton.

I brute-force calculate the average damage of every possible attack / defense combination. It's not hard, it's just a set of nested loops. That portion results in quantifiable hard numbers that simply are what they are, there is zero room for debate. So that portion sounds like "the" numbers you are thinking of.

The second half is to use some assumptions based on the action economy and meta game to give weightings to the likelihood of each individual event. This is less firm, but we have observational data and can use different weightings to represent different extremes of the meta game.

The third step is to determine a value based on a ship's average attack and defense values. The jousting values based on stats alone are very easy to obtain. Factoring in other capabilities like different available actions, dials, etc, is much less certain, but that's beyond the scope of discussion here.

For anyone interested, you can read up on my statistical assumptions and results here: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/?p=1111620

I am not aware that FFG has done any such level of probabilistic analysis. If they had done a fraction of this probability analysis back during wave 1, then the TIE Advanced would almost certainly have been designed or costed differently.

TL;DR summary: the Z-95 will be a slightly better jouster than naked TIE Fighters.

Line em up on the table, look at them a long time. And then remember what they look like. Cause they will die in droves. Its gonna be nice to have a cheap ship for the rebels, but remember its worse than a Tie fighter , even with the missile. It will help even the numbers out and hopefully run interference for the better ships.

I can't begin to comprehend Major Juggler's math skills, but I understand conceptually what he's saying. Either way, his is basing his conclusion on something rather than just declaring that one is superior to the other without any support at all.

Line em up on the table, look at them a long time. And then remember what they look like. Cause they will die in droves. Its gonna be nice to have a cheap ship for the rebels, but remember its worse than a Tie fighter , even with the missile. It will help even the numbers out and hopefully run interference for the better ships.

I can't begin to comprehend Major Juggler's math skills, but I understand conceptually what he's saying. Either way, his is basing his conclusion on something rather than just declaring that one is superior to the other without any support at all.

And I don't run numbers, I just play. I was just going by a casual observation, of dials, skills, and stat differences. Time will tell.

Thats what I based my statement on. Which is where most of start.

Line em up on the table, look at them a long time. And then remember what they look like. Cause they will die in droves. Its gonna be nice to have a cheap ship for the rebels, but remember its worse than a Tie fighter , even with the missile. It will help even the numbers out and hopefully run interference for the better ships.

I can't begin to comprehend Major Juggler's math skills, but I understand conceptually what he's saying. Either way, his is basing his conclusion on something rather than just declaring that one is superior to the other without any support at all.

And I don't run numbers, I just play. I was just going by a casual observation, of dials, skills, and stat differences. Time will tell.

Thats what I based my statement on. Which is where most of start.

The Z-95 is about the same as the tie fighter. It has advantages and disadvantages but all things considered, their about the same. Hence the cost being very similar.

Line em up on the table, look at them a long time. And then remember what they look like. Cause they will die in droves. Its gonna be nice to have a cheap ship for the rebels, but remember its worse than a Tie fighter , even with the missile. It will help even the numbers out and hopefully run interference for the better ships.

I can't begin to comprehend Major Juggler's math skills, but I understand conceptually what he's saying. Either way, his is basing his conclusion on something rather than just declaring that one is superior to the other without any support at all.

And I don't run numbers, I just play. I was just going by a casual observation, of dials, skills, and stat differences. Time will tell.

Thats what I based my statement on. Which is where most of start.

Aka your opinion. Most people like to draw conclusion on more than just their opinions, since those are inherently biased.

His math isnt that hard to understand. Just superficially, 2shields/2hull/2agility vs 3hull/3agility (not factoring in dials, since they both have their advantages/disadvantages), the Z should be roughly equivalent to a basic TIE in survivability.

I would say the TIE has a slight edge overall but that is strictly my opinion.

Its gonna be close, the tf dial is prob better, as is ag. The headhunter has an extra hit, 2 of which are shields(might tip it to z-95?), and a missile option. The tie has more action options. So time will tell.

Its gonna be close, the tf dial is prob better, as is ag. The headhunter has an extra hit, 2 of which are shields(might tip it to z-95?), and a missile option. The tie has more action options. So time will tell.

The Z-95 also will reliably not get one shot in far more situations. That's a huge advantage for it, and not to be underestimated.

Its gonna be close, the tf dial is prob better, as is ag. The headhunter has an extra hit, 2 of which are shields(might tip it to z-95?), and a missile option. The tie has more action options. So time will tell.

The Z-95 also will reliably not get one shot in far more situations. That's a huge advantage for it, and not to be underestimated.

I played an epic game last night and Soontir Fel + Stealth Device took 6 quad laser cannon shots and only had to spend a single focus token, zero damage taken. Of course, if he was being shot at range 3 through an asteroid by a TIE Fighter or Z-95, he would have rolled all blanks, suffered 2 damage, and the 2nd would have been a critical hit Direct Hit.

The biggest disadvantage of the TIE which makes the Z95 a much better choice is that the TIE can't be run to fill Rebel lists, just as the Z can't complement Imperials. .

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

Let me guess, you've got some sort of fancy "math" to back that up

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

Let me guess, you've got some sort of fancy "math" to back that up

Well there's always something that messes up the calculations. Like Space Zombies that shoot while undead.

Pfffsh! Already spoiling wave 7...

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

That pretty much puts it to pilot skill. Z-95s, even with crits aren't going to be killing many ties in a round of fire either. Especially not if the ties do pull off some blocking. The real question becomes, what can Etahn do, and how long will he live in comparison to Howlrunner.

I have been meaning to analyze the extra damage potential that Etahn gives, or more generally, flipping one hit to a crit (Merc co-pilot). I already have all the plumbing in my code, it would just be a few more lines.

In a match of 8 Z's vs 8 TIE's it'd be about piloting skills as well as pilot skills.

Howlrunner and 6 TIE's vs Etahn and 5 Z's, that'd be interesting.

Agree to both - but the Z-95 at the same cost gets to shoot first, which should be a much bigger advantage than moving first to block. Your damage output drops off precipitously when you're dead!

Let me guess, you've got some sort of fancy "math" to back that up

Etahn and 5 Zs should really be Etahn, 2 A's, and 3 Z's which should quite handily eat the tie swarm via much greater durability.

But I suppose the extra 8 points in upgrades could be spent in other places.

Etahn, Gemmer, and 4 Z's is pretty beastly.

That pretty much puts it to pilot skill. Z-95s, even with crits aren't going to be killing many ties in a round of fire either. Especially not if the ties do pull off some blocking. The real question becomes, what can Etahn do, and how long will he live in comparison to Howlrunner.

But the odds of killing a TIE or two before they can shoot back are up there. And while the TIE list has 10 points available for customization, Etahn has 8 but many more options to shore up his defenses.

That pretty much puts it to pilot skill. Z-95s, even with crits aren't going to be killing many ties in a round of fire either. Especially not if the ties do pull off some blocking. The real question becomes, what can Etahn do, and how long will he live in comparison to Howlrunner.

But the odds of killing a TIE or two before they can shoot back are up there. And while the TIE list has 10 points available for customization, Etahn has 8 but many more options to shore up his defenses.

It still comes down to skill.

That pretty much puts it to pilot skill. Z-95s, even with crits aren't going to be killing many ties in a round of fire either. Especially not if the ties do pull off some blocking. The real question becomes, what can Etahn do, and how long will he live in comparison to Howlrunner.

But the odds of killing a TIE or two before they can shoot back are up there. And while the TIE list has 10 points available for customization, Etahn has 8 but many more options to shore up his defenses.

You can also mix in some 15 point prototypes to add some more general beef to your squad. Etahn is still the relative glass cannon and merits protection though. In this squad and for the price, 5 Z's would probably be better than 3Zs + 2 As, but it could be close. The obvious defensive play is shield + R2-D2 for an even 8 points. I suspect that it'll become "the" Etahn Swarm build:

Etahn + Shield Upgrade + R2-D2

5x Bandit Squadron Pilot

That pretty much puts it to pilot skill. Z-95s, even with crits aren't going to be killing many ties in a round of fire either. Especially not if the ties do pull off some blocking. The real question becomes, what can Etahn do, and how long will he live in comparison to Howlrunner.

But the odds of killing a TIE or two before they can shoot back are up there. And while the TIE list has 10 points available for customization, Etahn has 8 but many more options to shore up his defenses.

You can also mix in some 15 point prototypes to add some more general beef to your squad. Etahn is still the relative glass cannon and merits protection though. In this squad and for the price, 5 Z's would probably be better than 3Zs + 2 As, but it could be close. The obvious defensive play is shield + R2-D2 for an even 8 points. I suspect that it'll become "the" Etahn Swarm build:

Etahn + Shield Upgrade + R2-D2

5x Bandit Squadron Pilot

The problem with any swarm build today is Echo, who just munches through any given swarm build without much difficulty.

I playtested Echo against respawning TIEs 4 at a time; he took down 14 without taking damage before we called it quits.

The same applies to Z-95s...

I'm thinking Etahn with Sensor Jammers and Stealth Device. 4 Agility with a focus and depowering Howlrunner's effect somewhat?

Yeah, these are all very good ideas. The system upgrade is great. When in doubt, get Advanced Sensors, although that's anti-synergistic with PtL.

I do like the idea of PtL + R2-D2 on Etahn for 99 points. If only there was a 1 point System Upgrade! :-)