Avi_dreader said:

I might be in a minority with this view, but I think that Shub-Niggurath and the Black Goat of the Woods is the most difficult AO/herald combination currently possible. Cthulhu/Dagon or Cthulhu/Hydra may beat it though.

Those brave or foolish enough to walk the shadowed byways of Arkham and stand against the Mythos we term Investigators. On occasion these flyspecks are punished for their temerity when the Mythos extends but a fraction of its true power and crushes them mercilessly; in a heartbeat reducing them from the very peak of their powers to a mere crimson smear on the street or broken screaming husks whose minds have long since fled. There is no recovery from from this trauma, no therapy to rehabilitate. We can only look on and hope there is another brave or foolish enough to make a stand for all our sakes.

At least that is how I have always played it.

'If an investigator's maximum sanity or maximum stamina is reduced to 0, that investigator is devoured'.

I can see how your interpretation fits the wording. Are you telling me that rule is inserted in the base game rulebook just so people don't continue to fight Cthulu when their sanity is at -3? Does that really need to be explained? I accept that the addition of certain cards from expansions (madness/injury cards, mythos lore, Inner Beast, Third Eye etc.) can combine with rumour failure to increase the possibilities of this situation coming to pass. Do you think your interpretation is correct and this rule was created with a degree of foresight as I can't bring to mind a situation using the base game where max stamina can be reduced to zero?

I have to say I like the way I have always played it, but then I like it tough. I hereby formally withdraw my previous comment about you all being a bunch of wusses in case you are right. I hope you aren't though and will continue along my own dark path.

sulphurea said:

Wait, do you mean you've so far played that any and all sanity/stamina loss reduces one's maximum sanity/stamina, instead of current ?

No. I played that if a single incident reduced an investigator from their current maximum Sanity or Stamina to zero then they were devoured. For example Mark on 3 sanity fails a horror check against a Dark Young and he's history. I have to say that as I play it monsters can become a far more fearsome and interesting prospect as they wander the board. I guess I'll play it your way (which I grudgingly accept is probably right) for the League which should make things a little easier. Recently I remember 2 investigators in the same League game were powerless to avoid being devoured by the Hunting Horror which appeared as a result of an Other World encounter. I kind of like my games spiced like that though.

sulphurea said:

Okay, I see what you're saying. A point though. If, let's use Mark here as you kindly sacrificed him , Mark is devoured by going from 3 San to 0, why not when you go from current 1 San to 0? Investigator with 1 Sanity left has a lot more precarious hold on the twists and turns of his mind than an investigator at max Sanity. Wouldn't those who have already suffered sanity damage be more vulnerable to insanity-caused devouring?

I think Sulphurea was using a different interpretation of "you are devoured if your maximum Sanity reduced to zero", taking it to mean that if you're on your maximum Sanity and your Sanity is instantly reduced to zero, you are devoured. I can see where that interpretation comes from...but I do think it's incorrect. Still, it probably doesn't break the game too badly.

thecorinthian said:

*Think* it's incorrect? ;'D ::laughter::

sulphurea said:

That'd actually make a fairly interesting house rule. Add a bit to the threateningness of some of the creatures. I'm tempted to devise a custom AO that implements this though— maybe later.

It won't mess up the game that much, unless you're against Glaaki. Urgh.

thecorinthian said:

I'd say Black Goat/Atlach-Nacha would be worse.

But Kevin estimates that Dagon AND Hydra with Cthulhu will be the worst

Tibs said:

::Laughter:: worse than BG with Atlach? Uh oh ;'D

I really enjoy my screwed up masochistic interpretation of the rules. Played a league game this afternoon and was stoically returning Rita to the box together with a shop full of quality gear and allies when I realised that I could simply make the bad dream go away. This game seems a lot easier now it feels like cheating.

Dam, I guess I thought along the lines that the confused and disjointed nature of a slightly fractured mind acted as a buffer in some way against the true horror of the Mythos and it was only a mind whole and fully integrated that could properly see into and grasp the full nature of that horror, with the inevitable result that it was utterly destroyed when it saw and grasped too much. I reasoned that a little insanity was self-defence for the psyche, an inoculation so to speak, fracturing it and protecting it from destruction. Weird eh?

You know what a friend of mine proposed and I agree with about Dagon and Hydra? He said that each one decreases either maximum sanity or stamina. Which means, played together with Cthulhu, everybody is at -2 Sanity and Stamina. Which is going to be horrendous, if that is the case. But as bad as the Black Goat for a different reason, perhaps. Hard to say without seeing them in action.

flamethrower49 said:

I don't think that's going to happen like that, honestly. That would mean that a player could be devoured from startup by drawing Mythos Lore, or by the first drawn mythos card if it's A Dark Wind Covers Arkham. I could see that the penalty for going insane/unconscious would be to lose one maximum, in addition to the normal effects (whether or not you draw an injury/madness). I also believe that one will move the Deep one Rising track along (sort of like the DH herald). The other one might do the maximums thing.

But hey, we'll know soon right?

Wendy as a traffic cop lol hmmm...you could have killed one or two a turn with Wendy! Lucky no Clours/ Cathodians around.

flamethrower49 said:

Muhuhahahahaa!

Tibs said:

We reason that way because why else would he state that Cthulhu, specifically, would be the hardest Ancient One in concert with them? Cthulhu is not the hardest Ancient One, I think we would agree. Pretty harsh effect, but a long doom track and a hard, but winnable, final fight. How to make it worse? Further penalties.

I don't think they would be against getting someone devoured during setup... besides, your way wouldn't really be fun either. Poor Jack (or Mark, or Michael, or Tony) with Mythos Lore would almost certainly get devoured very quickly anyway - perhaps more merciful than always being insane, but perhaps not.

There's room on a herald card for more than one ability. If Hydra had "Each Investigator reduces their maximum Stamina by one." and Dagon had "Each Investigator reduces their maximum Sanity by one.", there's still plenty of room for Dagon to meddle with the Deep One Uprising Track and Hydra to do whatever fiendish things they see fit to allow. And you have an extremely hard game.

Well I'm just pitching ideas that they're more likely to be—I can't think of any great abilities (as a funny side note, before King in Yellow was released, I had a Dagon herald that lowered your maximum when you went unconscious/insane). I'm just saying that from a strict gameplay standpoint, I wouldn't expect the designers would allow "devoured during setup" to plausibly happen if at all possible, and lowering sanity and stamina maximums any more than they already are (not counting I/M penalties) will do that.

flamethrower49 said:

God, I really hope it's not that. In the words of Eric Cartman, that would be super super lame. Just knocking stats off investigators is a pretty crude way of making the game more difficult.

Then again...either Dagon or Hydra would then be an interesting way of adding a bit more Cthuluey flavour to games against other AOs.