I am probably never going to buy 6 TIE defenders so this list will never be tournament legal for me. But I was thinking the biggest weakness for a TIE Swarm if Howelrunner. Kill her and your swarm looses a ton of hitting power. So I cam up with this.

Black Squadron + Preditor x5

Night Beast

Yeah it is only 6 TIEs, you a TIE from the standard 6 TIEs + Howelrunner. But since Howelrunner is usually a little further back with an evade token I don't think you lose a lot of firepower.

Against a three ship rebel squadron you will of course probably move last, but against a 4 or 5 ship rebel squadron those points you spent on the Black Squadron shouldn't be wasted.

I am really excited to get the preditor card, I have lots of ideas for them.

Preditor seems to me what we all wanted Marksmanship and Expose to be. Since it doesn't cost an action it give a lagitamate offensive bump all the time.

worth trying I would say... the boost in PS could help. I would normally say the extra Tie in a howl swarm is important for nothing else then padding for the expected loss during the first exchange with a higher PS opponent.

I would also consider backstabber as a flanker instead of nightbeast.

Spending 15 points to replicate the ability of Howlrunner is an expensive proposition. If you're going to spend 3 points on a 12 point ship to get a "soft" extra die, you're almost just better off spending the full 6 points per ship at that point to upgrade to an Interceptor and get a permanent extra dice.

Predator is best on expensive ships that don't otherwise have access to Howlrunner. Not coincidentally, this would be the TIE Defender, which is where the card comes from.

When I first read the title I thought "Dark Curse + 7 Academies"

I need to agree with MajorJuggler here. Spending 15 points just to give ships an "upgrade" that spending 6 points could share is a bit of a waste. At 17 points the PSB+Predator may have a slight cost and PS edge on the Alpha Interceptor but the Alpha also has boost built in and actually gets to roll an "extra" die instead of occasionally getting to reroll one, or even two, of two attack dice.

In another thread there was a lot of discussion about whether Outmaneuver isn't a better EP choice for the PSB when run in numbers.

It's actually 5 points per ship, not 3. The topic has been discussed before, here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/107483-developing-list-subtype-apex-predators/

Rather than repeat my main point, I'll just quote myself.

I briefly considered this idea, but in the end it just felt like a bad investment. You're paying 5 points more over an Academy Pilot for a slightly higher PS and some ship autonomy. At 4 BSPs + Predator you've already paid two points more for 5 Academies + Howl, a whole extra ship. Running a mini-swarm in this fashion takes up a considerable chunk of your 100 points, leaving not even enough room for a naked Bounty Hunter. Forget about running a 6 TIE swarm, it won't even fit. For less than a hundred points you can run Howl + ST, Mauler + ST, Backstabber, Dark Curse, and two Academies. That's six ships, two of which fire at PS8, two at PS7, two at PS6, with a considerable amount of their own autonomy via pilot abilities once they split up - and that's still only 95 points.

It's actually 5 points per ship, not 3.

I'm comparing a baseline 12 point Academy TIE with an 18 point Alpha Squadron pilot, which is a difference of 6 points. Predator itself costs 3 points.

If you compare at PS4 the TIE Fighter costs one less to make the PS1 to PS3 jump, making it a net 4 point difference once Predator is costed in. You can't completely take the PS bid out of the equation and compare a PS4 BSP vs a PS1 Academy.

PS4 Saber Squadron Pilot = 21 points

PS4 Black Squadron Pilot = 14+3 = 17 points

So it's still 4 additional points to go from a BSP + Predator to a full Saber at the same PS.

Regardless, it's too expensive on a cheap ship, it simply costs too large a percentage of the base ship cost.

You don't even need to maintain formation with this: your TIEs can freely split up.

It's actually 5 points per ship, not 3.

I'm comparing a baseline 12 point Academy TIE with an 18 point Alpha Squadron pilot, which is a difference of 6 points. Predator itself costs 3 points.

If you compare at PS4 the TIE Fighter costs one less to make the PS1 to PS3 jump, making it a net 4 point difference once Predator is costed in. You can't completely take the PS bid out of the equation and compare a PS4 BSP vs a PS1 Academy.

PS4 Saber Squadron Pilot = 21 points

PS4 Black Squadron Pilot = 14+3 = 17 points

So it's still 4 additional points to go from a BSP + Predator to a full Saber at the same PS.

Regardless, it's too expensive on a cheap ship, it simply costs too large a percentage of the base ship cost.

Oh, I know better than to get into a math war with you. I'm simply comparing the price of your basic Academy Pilot, which comprise the bulk of of any given Howl swarm, to that of a BSP + Predator. The difference in cost from four ships to five I find particularly telling. The question, which I've already addressed, is this: is a slightly higher PS and some ship autonomy worth sacrificing a whole extra ship?

You don't even need to maintain formation with this: your TIEs can freely split up.

At which point the named TIEs are still a better value, and cost less.

i have dozens of 6 tie fighter swars for u just pm me and i tell ya some ;P btw hope u have 3 times veteran instincts for boosting youre black squadrons up or use 6 named ties. and just sayin hwolrunner with 5 other named ties = ***** good

The large advantage of this over Howelrunner is that Howelrunner can be killed. Once she is dead your squadron looses a huge percentage of its firepower. When this squadron looses a ship, it just looses a ship.

As for Night Beast, I only had 15 points left after I bought as many upgraded black squadrons as I could.

The large advantage of this over Howelrunner is that Howelrunner can be killed. Once she is dead your squadron looses a huge percentage of its firepower. When this squadron looses a ship, it just looses a ship.

As for Night Beast, I only had 15 points left after I bought as many upgraded black squadrons as I could.

I'll quote myself again, from the last page of the thread I linked above:

Swarms are powerful because of Howl, but they wouldn't be nearly as ubiquitous if losing her was so catastrophic that it automatically put you in danger of losing a game.

I'll add to that by saying swarms do frequently, perhaps even inevitably, lose Howl. They also lose cohesion after the first joust, thereby disintegrating the formation and potentially putting Howl out of reach of several ships. It happens all the time, if not every time, and the list still wins. Losing Howl isn't as backbreaking as you'd imagine.

The large advantage of this over Howelrunner is that Howelrunner can be killed. Once she is dead your squadron looses a huge percentage of its firepower. When this squadron looses a ship, it just looses a ship.

As for Night Beast, I only had 15 points left after I bought as many upgraded black squadrons as I could.

I'll quote myself again, from the last page of the thread I linked above:

Swarms are powerful because of Howl, but they wouldn't be nearly as ubiquitous if losing her was so catastrophic that it automatically put you in danger of losing a game.

Losing Howelrunner doesn't neuter a swarm. But it does hurt them. In fact, late in the game, Howelrunner's effectiveness is going to be minimized and closing formations turns into hairball dog-fighting. But we have seen from Howelrunner that if you only have two attack dice being able to re-roll one of them is really great.

Howelrunner is 18 points, and her primary use is re-rolls. When I field her she is almost always in the back (where she doesn't have good shots) and with evade token on her. Her ship doesn't add a lot of firepower, instead her ability is to buff all the other ships is what you bought her for. Sometimes I give her swarm tactics or squad leader to buff other ships a little more, but that is usually secondary. (I prefer swarm tactics to squad lead since I want her evading.)

My point is how much more would you pay for Howelrunner if her buff ability never went away. Sure offensive boost is going to be more efficient use of points on few/more expensive ships, but you only ever get one re-roll. And it will come in more handy on a TL-less / 2 attack dice TIE Fighter than a already buffed HLC wielding Defender, who is going to be doing a ton of damage already.

But we have seen from Howelrunner that if you only have two attack dice being able to re-roll one of them is really great.

Not great enough to warrant that kind of expenditure, or to exclude a whole other ship for that matter. Howl is good because she's an amazing value, not because her ability is so powerful. I would gladly pay 18 points to buff my entire list, if the only caveat was that I have to fly it in formation. I would not pay 17 each for several ships when I can pay 12 and get the same effect.

When you put the question as "how much would you pay for Howlrunner if the re-roll never went away" may actually be a GREAT way of showing why she is so darn effective.

For the cost of AP+Predator* (x3) you could instead have AP (X2) with Howlrunner+Predator. Occasionally the first will get to roll a couple more dice and only loses a ship when one goes down but the second has one that shoots first and if it loses a ship there is a 2/3 chance that is all it loses. Now you throw in another like AP in each group and the first squadron now costs 3 more points than the second. It may be able to act more independently but that may not always be an advantage when you try to focus down a target.

I'm not exactly sure what you'd value a PS 8 TIE Fighter at without abilities but if you have want to put Predator on more than two other ships you've already covered the cost of Howlrunner when compared to a PS 1 tie. If you say a PS 8 TIE is worth 15 points that makes Howlrunner's ability worth just as much as a single copy of Predator and most will say it's worth far more than that.

*Of course you can't put EP on Academy Pilots so this was used only for illustration purposes.

Some simple math, to answer that question:

For 5 BSPs + Predator, you've paid 25 points just for Howl's effect and a PS bump. In the process you've lost a PS8 ship, including another EPT and those two additional red dice. Would I take that trade? Hell no.

I don't know guys, this might be a more effective list than you are giving it credit for.

It still has 6 TIEs, which is the "normal" number of ships in a Swarm. It has high enough PS to fire with/before all generics and avoid the anti-swarm cards like Predator and Flight Instructor. It does not need to maintain formation, which is an enormous advantage when it comes to avoiding collisions and/or blocking your opponent. You can fit through any asteroid field with ease, and can take full advantage of the excellent TIE dial.

Predator is not just a free reroll, it is also insurance against lost actions. When running 6 ships, losing actions due to bumping/k-turning/barrel rolling becomes an every turn affair, and your whole list is able to continue making accurate shots despite this. This swarm is capable of flying directly into the teeth of an enemy squadron while remaining accurate and firing early.

I would want to put this squadron on the table at least once before dismissing it. There are a lot of subtle advantages at work here, too many to dismiss without putting it on the table and seeing if you can capitalize enough to make it work. Night Beast fits the overall concept very well also, able to get a focus action despite flying into a crowd.

I like it. Whether it is "competitive" or not is not immediately clear, and it operates in a unique fashion. Unique + potential + testing on the table is how first rate squads are designed. Kudos for creative thinking, and let me know how it works. I will be happy to shamelessly imitate you if your idea bears fruit. :-)

Good point KO on the squad at least still having 6 TIEs. In a particular matchup, a lot will depend on the opponent's pilot skill. If it's PS1/2 then Predator looks much better, especially at range 1. If your opponent is PS1/2 then you REALLY want to get in range 1 to fully take advantage of Predator's 2 rerolls.

If your opponent is PS6, then things get ugly. You only get one reroll, and you shoot last. The direct comparison for this squad is a 6 TIE PS6+ Swarm, which, in a head to head fight, should tear this squad up pretty easily.

Howlrunner + Stealth

Mauler

Backstabber

Dark Curse

2x BSP + VI

That would be a very interesting and exciting matchup, unlike most swarm v. swarm matchups.

On the first volley, Aggroswarm will have the upper hand with action stacked (Focus + Howl) shots and a dense formation. Predators would be diffuse, and likely to lose a ship before it fires. Advantage is probably 2 damage in favor of Aggroswarm.

The second round is a tossup. Aggroswarm is up a ship and still has Howlrunner, but Predators are action stacked (Predator + Focus) against a blocked and focus-less Aggroswarm (Howlrunner only). This round is likely even, with the last points of damage put on Howlrunner and insufficient damage overall to put another Predator down.

The third round is clearly advantage Predators. K-Turns, or hard turns plus self-bumps leave Predators with a significant action advantage (both sides stressed/blocked, Predators have rerolls Aggroswarm does not).

The fourth round is the first round of melee, where things can come unstuck in a hurry. Predators will hold the action advantage for the duration of the game, either Predator or Predator + Focus vs. about 50/50 Focus or nothing for Aggroswarm, but Aggroswarm will always shoot first.

It would be a lot of fun to play out.

Interesting analysis, but it's impossible to really predict how that would play out, especially with one squad flying in loose formation. Your experience is much better than mine so you're probably pretty close to how it would go down. My money would still be on the Howlrunner swarm though. It would depend on how long Howlrunner stays alive, and how effective Mauler and Backstabber are at getting extra dice.

It's certainly no guarantee that the Howl Swarm loses all its action on the second round, especially if the BSP are flying loosely. Flying loose is always a big risk, since if you don't all converge at the same time, the concentrated Howl Swarm is going to act like a meatgrinder and kill them off as they get to closing distance.

Also, Predator is useless against Dark Curse.

Some simple math, to answer that question:

For 5 BSPs + Predator, you've paid 25 points just for Howl's effect and a PS bump. In the process you've lost a PS8 ship, including another EPT and those two additional red dice. Would I take that trade? Hell no.

You didn't pay 25 points to get Howelrunners ability you spent 15 points. You spent 10 points to up your PS skill from 1 to 4.

I will admit that the points payed to get from OS to BS isn't as cost effective as AP to OS. A PS of 4 beats or ties every single generic pilot in the game except for Royal Guard.

PS skill can be a crap shoot since you don't know what PS your opponent will have, but having 6 ships all with PS 4 or 5 is not nothing.

You simply can't say that the 25 points spent bringing the Black Squadron + Predator up from simple Academy Pilots has no value but to only get your re-rolls.

I am not saying that this is the next tournament winning list. Like I said before I don't plan on ever having 4 predator cards that would be required to play this list in a tournament. But I don't think this list would suck. I think it would fly well against swarms and do well where swarms do well.

The difference between 6 ships and 7 isn't as big imo as say the difference between 3 and 4.

I am not saying that this is the next tournament winning list. Like I said before I don't plan on ever having 4 predator cards that would be required to play this list in a tournament. But I don't think this list would suck. I think it would fly well against swarms and do well where swarms do well.

TIE Fighters are already so points efficient that its hard for ANY heavy TIE Fighter build to outright suck, I don't know if that's even mathematically possible!

Also, you would need 5 Defender packs, wouldn't you? 5 Predators for 5 BSP?

Too bad I "only" pre-ordered 4. I'll still have to try it, just proxy the last one.

Interesting analysis, but it's impossible to really predict how that would play out, especially with one squad flying in loose formation. Your experience is much better than mine so you're probably pretty close to how it would go down. My money would still be on the Howlrunner swarm though. It would depend on how long Howlrunner stays alive, and how effective Mauler and Backstabber are at getting extra dice.

It's certainly no guarantee that the Howl Swarm loses all its action on the second round, especially if the BSP are flying loosely. Flying loose is always a big risk, since if you don't all converge at the same time, the concentrated Howl Swarm is going to act like a meatgrinder and kill them off as they get to closing distance.

Also, Predator is useless against Dark Curse.

Certainly I agree that Aggroswarm has an overall advantage, but Predators has enough specific advantages that the door is open for good play to turn the tables.

Also, the first pass is fairly predictable in most matchups. The first volley everyone has actions but range is long, the second volley allows the lower PS to deny actions but occurs at close range so high PS has a better chance of eliminating ships before they fire. The third is always a regroup/turn around, to get ships pointed in the right direction. From then on, who knows. As long as the Predators kept close enough to support one another, this could be a great game.

ran this non-Howlrunner swarm, did ok, not great.

black squadron + PTL + targeting computer (x4)

Mauler Mithel + PTL + targeting computer

my thought was 5 ships spending a total of 10 points to get a chance to reroll all attack dice not just 1, with PTL to evade and lock, or focus and lock.

the problem with this list came when i needed to burn stress, not alot of green manuevers on a TIE dial.

Good point KO on the squad at least still having 6 TIEs. In a particular matchup, a lot will depend on the opponent's pilot skill. If it's PS1/2 then Predator looks much better, especially at range 1. If your opponent is PS1/2 then you REALLY want to get in range 1 to fully take advantage of Predator's 2 rerolls.

If your opponent is PS6, then things get ugly. You only get one reroll, and you shoot last. The direct comparison for this squad is a 6 TIE PS6+ Swarm, which, in a head to head fight, should tear this squad up pretty easily.

Howlrunner + Stealth

Mauler

Backstabber

Dark Curse

2x BSP + VI

That is an evil Swarm.

A sad thing is that the most direct Predator filled comparison I come up with is:

BSP + Predator (x4)

Backstabber

Dark Curse

That high PS swarm just eats this Predator one up.

I started the APEX predators thread that covered a lot of this. Here is what it came down to for me:

-In the right now meta, traditional swarm is still likely more powerful

-In the coming meta, the extra PS and ability to fly out of formation gains ground. As low PS goes away predator also gets a little worse.

-Does it gain more ground than the really awesome named tie abilities? 6 named tie swarm, with or without howl, is very potent too.

I liked BSP+predator on 2 or so ships but more than that and you're looking at upgrading elsewhere or downgrading to Named tie/7 tie swarm. If you need some more offensive certainty out of your Ties, PS bump and Predator probably does that well enough, if you're just mini swarming and have other power players Predator becomes less important.