Hey guys I was contemplating between these two lists:

100pts

I had also considered this:

100pts/99pts

but worried that Echo's carrying too many eggs in that ship. This could do better in a Phantom v Phantom match.

What about this:

Howlrunner - 18

Dark Curse - 16

Backstabber - 16

Academy Pilot - 12

Echo, VI, ACD, Recon Spec - 38

Best of both worlds, 4 ties with Howlie to make 'em scarier, and two other decent pilots for once they burn down Howlie, and Echo still ends up well upgraded and ready to rock.

Hey guys I was contemplating between these two lists:

100pts

Echo" — TIE Phantom 30

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

"Howlrunner" — TIE Fighter 18

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

vs

97pts

Shadow Squadron Pilot — TIE Phantom 27

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

"Howlrunner" — TIE Fighter 18

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

There's 3pts left over in the 2nd squad to take upgrades on the Shadow (RecSpec, Tactician, AdvSens, FCS).

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The general idea of this list is to make the opponent choose between the Phantom or a mini swarm.

If I'm playing against a high PS list, I have the ships to outnumber him, if it's a swarmy list, the Phantom should be a good closer, after the mini-swarm (hopefully) takes down the higher PS.

If it's a mirror match, I take the dice, anoint it a few unfilled hit signs on the blank sides of the red dice, and hope.

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The 1st list's strength is Echo is PS6, shoots before Biggs and should be great in arc-dodging (with sufficient practice) - extremely key, I think when enemy forces are 50% down and you're trying to keep the Echo alive.

The 2nd list's strength is that the Shadow has more flexibility in the loadout - get 2 focus tokens for offensively and defensive use, ability to stress targets at R2, actions before movement, free TL. Or I can use that 3 points to upgrade a few TIEs to Obsidians...

I'm torn. Any advice?

The Echo squad far better in my book.

Ok, looks like the preference is strictly for Echo.

Poor Shadow Squad.

Next question - how would you beat it?

I think Shadow and Sigma have their place, just not in the same way. They are gonna be accentuating a list, rather then being the focus, which looked like your intent.

Now... to deal with Echo? No real idea. Turrets with high PS are a great solution. Proximity mines can make things tough for her. Solid coverage of the area with diverse firing lanes can work, but may be tough since it'll take a few ships, which means less PS, which means more power for Echo. I'm gonna need to fly against it a few times before I have a solid idea, I think.

I think Shadow and Sigma have their place, just not in the same way. They are gonna be accentuating a list, rather then being the focus, which looked like your intent.

Now... to deal with Echo? No real idea. Turrets with high PS are a great solution. Proximity mines can make things tough for her. Solid coverage of the area with diverse firing lanes can work, but may be tough since it'll take a few ships, which means less PS, which means more power for Echo. I'm gonna need to fly against it a few times before I have a solid idea, I think.

Ahh - I see your point. That's true - Echo is the focus here. Most perceptive. Sadly not much experience with Wave 4 is leading to unnecessary speculation! I have tried to proxy a fully loaded Echo with 5x Academies and it just wasn't the same without Howlrunner. However, I do worry on those pesky 1 shot kills which would make Howlrunner a sink of 18pts - especially since everyone else is just PS1.

Also, it takes a massive amount of practice to get Echo right - I played a couple of games recently with a proxy and Echo had all of 3 shots in the first game, dealing almost no damage since I spent the actions rolling to get into arc. Oh, also the game before that Echo got hit by Hit Hit Direct Hit.

Yeah I was thinking of Turrets as a factor - which is also why I'm bringing a mini-Swarm, since most turreted ships have lower firepower (sans named YT).

Yeh, howlie getting blown away early is a problem, for sure. That's why I slimmed the list a bit to add curse and backstabber, both with higher ps and more of a threat than academys. This makes for crappy choices as priorities. They can't ignore both howlie and echo, but leaving stabber and curse around isn't pleasant either.

I've been experimenting a bit using named ties over acadameys and finding some successes with it.

I've got those Howl lists down as "to try". I've just been weary of using Echo without VI.

However, after a couple practice games last night, I have concluded that Recon Specialist is almost necessary for the matchups vs Falcons.

4 dice doesn't mean much without a focus. And I will need to focus for offense. Fire Control could remedy this as well, giving Echo an offensive action.

I recommend the 5 AP list. Up to 40 pts for the Phantom seems to increase the Echo's value. Howl + 4 AP might be better supported by an Interceptor or shuttle at that 34 pt limit. Id consider the PS 5 Phantom with Recon and ACD as well.

Meant my orinal post for a a different phantom thread.

But I like Whisper with howl swarm. I play Whisper a little more towards jousting than Echo.

I still try to stay out of arcs but Whisper with the occaisional Howl roll is nice.

I've got those Howl lists down as "to try". I've just been weary of using Echo without VI.

However, after a couple practice games last night, I have concluded that Recon Specialist is almost necessary for the matchups vs Falcons.

4 dice doesn't mean much without a focus. And I will need to focus for offense. Fire Control could remedy this as well, giving Echo an offensive action.

I recommend the 5 AP list. Up to 40 pts for the Phantom seems to increase the Echo's value. Howl + 4 AP might be better supported by an Interceptor or shuttle at that 34 pt limit. Id consider the PS 5 Phantom with Recon and ACD as well.

Something like this?

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 30

Veteran Instincts 1

Fire-Control System 2

Recon Specialist 3

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

I'd like to know what you guys think of having Howlrunner just to make targeting priority much more complex?

I'd like to know what you guys think of having Howlrunner just to make targeting priority much more complex?

Howlrunner alone or Howlrunner supporting a mini-swarm? My thought is that for you 60 points of TIE Fighters taking out two APs and adding Howlrunner can be the right call. That alone leaves you with six points to make other upgrades.

As far as pure numbers go losing a TIE Fighter costs you 2 primary attack dice and 3 hull points. Howlrunner now lets the three other TIE Fighters reroll a die which kind of means you gain +3 dice but not really although I think it can make up for losing 2 dice. The 3 hull points would need to be "made up" with some combination of upgrades but I think it can be done.

I did the list I posted earlier in the thread with a delta defender instead of echo, since I do have a defender and don't have the phantom. It worked really well. Having curse and stabber at hand made for more threats.

Obviously the defender flies quite differently, but it has some similarities.

I've got those Howl lists down as "to try". I've just been weary of using Echo without VI.

However, after a couple practice games last night, I have concluded that Recon Specialist is almost necessary for the matchups vs Falcons.

4 dice doesn't mean much without a focus. And I will need to focus for offense. Fire Control could remedy this as well, giving Echo an offensive action.

I recommend the 5 AP list. Up to 40 pts for the Phantom seems to increase the Echo's value. Howl + 4 AP might be better supported by an Interceptor or shuttle at that 34 pt limit. Id consider the PS 5 Phantom with Recon and ACD as well.

Something like this?

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 30

Veteran Instincts 1

Fire-Control System 2

Recon Specialist 3

Advanced Cloaking Device 4

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

That's my current Echo squad of choice for the time being. Still playing around with the crew member. Liking Recon Spec, Tactician and Intel Agent. Recon is solid for defence but Tactican and Intel Agent allow an Init bid.

Lots to experiment!

I will say this. Even the YT has low firepower. For its points. YT's are expensive.

I like the lists. I'm curious to hear how Echo works at PS6 as I'd be afraid to run him firing at less than PS8 ever.

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 30 Veteran Instincts 1 Fire-Control System 2 Recon Specialist 3 Advanced Cloaking Device 4 Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12 Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12 Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12 Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12 Academy Pilot — TIE Fighter 12

I tried that - and it was fun (which is more important than good).

I played against Biggs Walks the Dogs, and let my opponent place all 6 asteroids.

He obviously did his best to make no gap passable.

It was a terrible mess trying to get those damned APs through the asteroids - I had to split up formation and it took me 3 turns before one of those PS1 meat shields could take a shot.

All along, Echo was dancing in the asteroids - it doesn't matter to Phantoms at all. Bruce Forsyth would have been proud.

The game was brutal though, APs were falling like flies. I took down Biggs and Rookie, he had 2 Daggers remaining at the corner of the map, with good positioning, facing the center. One of them was down 2 shields. I had 2 full health APs, 1 injured AP and a Hull-only Phantom.

We were rolling exceptionally - Crits and at least 1 evade was the norm - so Rebels had a slight advantage there.

He called it at that point because, well, lunch was over.

What I liked : Echo

What I did not like : 5 APs are formidable, but there's a good chance for tough asteroid placements and a 4 ship build can easily sweep them off the board if you get it right. I'd imagine if my opponent wasn't so busy chasing Echo, he'd have done an aggressive 3 bank right into the APs while they're busy shuffling around avoiding asteroids and mopped them up pronto.

So yes, guys - right call on putting more upgrades into Echo. Thanks!

Disclaimer : I do realize that Echo and a mass of APs have a slight advantage over Biggs Walks the Dogs as they're tops PS5 and having to fly those 4 ships in formation, making it harder to spread your arcs.

I now have a fear of Corran lists or mirror matches.

Omni/vader

Bounty hunter recon

Echo/ vet,fcs,ACD ,recon

Omni/vader

Bounty hunter recon

Echo/ vet,fcs,ACD ,recon

Yeah that's worrying too. Vader is deadly.

Having the five ap does sound nice

I played this tonight against Krassis with hlc, and two Omnicron with advanced sensors with engine boost and win both games.

Echo

Veteran Insticts

Advance cloak

Fire control systems

Alpha Squadron

Howlrunner

Swarm tactics

Academy pilot x2

Both games were pretty good.

Three large ships is a lot of hp,but poor defense.

With this though you have three ships shooting at PS8. Real good opportunity to kill something,

Howlrunner gives st to the squint. That's 9 attack dice with those three ships alone. Enough to kill a bwing if lucky first round of combat

Now your really making your opponent choose.

Does he go after echo

Or

The squint w/ Howlrunner and two tie.

If he goes for echo play defense until the ties are in position.

If he goes for the ties make him want to shoot the academy by keeping them in a better position that he'll choose them over Howlrunner and the squint,and Flank with Echo.

I'll definitely by trying this one out more

Oh and it's at 99 points for initiative

I came up with this set up for Echo and 3 elite TIE's:

Echo - VI - Advanced Sensors - Navigator - Advanced Cloaking device (41)

Black Squadron Pilot - Predator - Hull Upgrade (20)

Backstabber - Hull Upgrade (19)

Dark Curse - Hull Upgrade (19)

This lets Echo go out and wreak havoc at ultimate maneuverability, meanwhile the 3 elite TIE's stay in formation and provide another legitimate threat. Can't let Backstabber out of your sights, Dark Curse is great at end game play, and as was posted in another thread, Black Squadron and Predator really work well together.

Took the Phantom to a Regionals .

Worked pretty well - I like it.

Thanks for al the input guys!