On an unrelated note, during a question and answer author Timothy Zahn stated that Disney would most likely limit future books to material relating the new movies. They are allowed a finite number of books per year and the pressure will be to keep them tied into the new films.

Back on subject, that got me thinking that FFG might be compelled to change the setting of Force & Destiny to the new age. I very much hope this isn't the case and F&D stays in the Rebellion era to tie seamlessly with the other core rulebooks. Keep in mind that Zahn was talking about the novels and not RPG books; his comment just got me thinking that this policy may be forced on FFG as well.

If that were the case then I wouldn't expect the final version of the F&D book to be released till the new movie comes out. Much like WotC's release of The Force Unleashed book was held up till the release of the game. But i don't think that FFG's book will be that tied in.

I get your point about using lightning for good and healing for bad, though the way I see it, Yoda wasn't exaggerating when he said the Force was for knowledge and defense, never for attack. In order to use the force to hurt someone, you're bending a spiritual energy of life into doing something it's not meant to do. Like a doctor using their skill in medicine to cause harm instead of heal. In other systems, I was generally pretty harsh about making sure that using the Force for attacking always got a dark side point, a dark side point for generally calling on the dark side (like for using something that requires hate to activate), and then possibly add or mitigate one depending on the circumstances.

Also, though I'm sure you weren't being completely serious, I wouldn't rule that you could actually use force lightning to jump start a heart; it's not actually lightning, it's just hate and the desire for your target to suffer made manifest. Which is also why I hope they don't make it a general attack power, because it *ISN'T*, dammit, it's for torture. A powerful force user can just stop someone's heart if they wanted to kill them. (Now, I know in Legacy, Cade *DID* use lightning to jump start someone's heart, but I would rules that as a Heal power calling on the Dark Side).

I think you and I view the Force very differently. That's not a condemnation as you're free to do what you want.

For me the Force is somewhat grounded in reality. It isn't emotion made manifest as I detest that sort of thing. Like in regular life emotion fuels action, but actions themselves aren't intrinsically tied to emotion. One could torture someone without hate or even for love. Especially, if such an action had an ultimate goal. My dental hygienist is not an evil person, and I doubt she hates me.

For example doctors kill all the time, but many don't think of it like that. Antibiotics are chemical warfare if you are bacteria. That soap in your bathroom is a weapon of mass destruction from a certain point of view. Life is violence, whether that jives with an individual's philosophy or not. Even if we can't directly perceive the slaughter it goes on all the time. If the Force is life then it is inherently violent.

Take vegans. They love animals with faces, but do you know how many moles and other burrowing creatures lost their homes or lives when the farmer plowed his field for the kale crop? Is the farmer a bad guy? I think not, but the argument can be made.

For me the light side channels that violence into protecting it's own, while the dark unleashes it's vituperation indiscriminately.

Yoda's statement about light and dark is the truth as Yoda sees it. It doesn't mean he is correct. Obi-wan's statement that the truths we cling to are based on our own point of view is the wiser.

I think the whole use the Force for Knowledge and Defense as opposed to Attack isn't meant to be taken completely literally. It's fairly impossible to defend yourself, other than running away, without fighting back. So I think if one is employing the Force in defense of self, or particularly others, it's ok if it is used in an offensive fashion.

In my opinion, the whole "Knowledge and Defense, never Attack" is always mistakenly assumed to reflect combat. It isn't - it's a measure of intention. When faced with a man about to shoot a child, a Jedi who strikes down the man does so out of ignorance - imposing her immediate view of the situation on the world, and not acting in accordance with the Force. If the Jedi instead uses the Force to determine why the man is about to shoot the child, she is using the Force for knowledge and defense, if, in the end, she must strike down the man to save a just child, she does so in accordance with the Force and not herself. She might even come to find that the child carries a plague that could kill countless innocents or is in fact a monster who looks like a child, in which case, her actions may change based on the reality of the situation.

The Knowledge and Defense, never Attack statement refers to motivation behind our actions - never aggressively judge a situation, instead understand it, then make an informed decision. The Force allows a being to act faster than others, and with greater clarity, thus the price of that power is the responsibility to take the time to be sure of that power's use.

CaptainRaspberry brings up an interesting speculation: will it be Destiny or maybe just the Force as the plot mechanic for F&D? I can't quite wrap my head around what it'd be like to track ones destiny or earn "points" for it unless it was tied specifically to the Destiny Points mechanic, but I wonder if FFG is considering something akin to what BioWare did by creating a Force spectrum -- showing whether your character is more light side than dark?

Leaving the falling to the Dark side to the story-telling, not some arbitrary game mechanic, is my hope.

I could see the theme of "Destiny" being more of a choice between "Do I follow my destiny or deny it?" If you think about the parallels of Anakin and Luke, Anakin was always denying his destiny (The Jedi are preventing me from loving/saving/committing) and he spiralled further and further down (getting tons of stress you might say) as he fought it, only to (in a way) fulfill his Destiny in the end anyway (just in a manner in which no one was thinking). Luke on the other hand embraced his Destiny, and in doing so he not only became stringer and stronger, but redeemed his father in the process.

I could certainly see a mechanic where if you acted in line with a preset destiny you got a slight buff or if you acted against it you would accrue stress. This becomes especially poignant when you destiny was forcing you to do something you didn't understand or didn't agree with.

More adventures! Like Beyond the Rim and Jewel of Yavin

I think the whole use the Force for Knowledge and Defense as opposed to Attack isn't meant to be taken completely literally. It's fairly impossible to defend yourself, other than running away, without fighting back. So I think if one is employing the Force in defense of self, or particularly others, it's ok if it is used in an offensive fashion.

In other words...

"Don't start a fight, but always make sure you finish it,"

Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

I'd say that jives with the Jedi mindset pretty well. In essence, don't go actively looking for trouble or reasons to use your nifty powers, but if push comes to shove, don't be afraid to push back if that's the only option you've got.

"Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill. For ALL life is of value... and no one has the right to take it away!"

"Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill. For ALL life is of value... and no one has the right to take it away!"

This doesn't make any sense to me. It is not only self defeating, it's self contradictory.

Right this instant as you are reading my words you are slaughtering an untold number of bacteria. Tiny insects and other multi-celluar creatures are being killed by your immune system, digestive system, skin acids, etc. All life does not have value to me. In fact some of it is trying to eat me this very instant. I survive because my autonomous systems kill that life before it does unto me.

That's the literal truth. As to the figurative of the statement, I utterly denounce it. There are few things more sadistic and cruel than maiming someone into being a prisoner of their own body. All things die. It is the way of universe, of the Force. Death is not evil. It is the way of things. We euthanize our pets for we love them, and our own need of their company does not justify keeping them in pain with no hope of relief.

If someone tries to harm me or those I love, I will first try to reason with him. If that fails, I will stop him. If I cannot or he will not be dissuaded, I will end him. From my point of view all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

I don't believe, entirely, in the Jedi or Sith codes, either... But I can play in that world.

Regardless of the real-world applications, the quote I shared still sums up the style of philosophy that is at the genesis of the spirituality of "Star Wars".

You don't need to believe it to enjoy a fictional world where many of the most powerful folks around probably follow a creed very similar to it.

I agree with Aluminium Falcon (What the heck's an aluminum falcon!?!), most gamers do not like paladins, but it's fun to me to play a zealot. especially with a group of characters that don't "get it".

At any rate, the failure of high-minded but flawed ideals is decent fodder for drama.

How about right up to F&D? Specifically, shouldn't we see the beta in the product section I don't mean on the boat or anything but they don't even have it listed for in development. I mean if we look at the hype over AoR we practically had that timed down to a week of the release day that is listed now. F&D beta should actually be listed printing if they plan on having even a few hundred copies for Gencon or just September distribution. Just a morning thought.

They didn't announce the previous two Beta games. They just showed up at GenCon and on the website for purchase same day. I will be super disappointed if there's no Beta for FaD, and there's no reason they have to put it up, but at the same time there's every reason to assume there will be a Beta and it will be released at GenCon.

How about right up to F&D? Specifically, shouldn't we see the beta in the product section I don't mean on the boat or anything but they don't even have it listed for in development. I mean if we look at the hype over AoR we practically had that timed down to a week of the release day that is listed now. F&D beta should actually be listed printing if they plan on having even a few hundred copies for Gencon or just September distribution. Just a morning thought.

They didn't announce the previous two Beta games. They just showed up at GenCon and on the website for purchase same day. I will be super disappointed if there's no Beta for FaD, and there's no reason they have to put it up, but at the same time there's every reason to assume there will be a Beta and it will be released at GenCon.

That same day beta ordering online, only happened with EtoE, when nobody knew it was coming. AoR sold out at gencon in a matter of hours, and it was months to get the book back in. I expect F&D to be closer to the AoR, however; FFG may have ordered a larger stockpile in an attmept to avoid that pitfall

Regarding the AoR Beta, when I passed by the FFG booth on Sunday they still had plenty of red softcover books on the table. I know Beyond the Rim sold out (was playing in a game run by Sterling Hershey that Sunday morning when he got that bit of news), but they didn't have as high a volume on that product as they did the AoR Beta.

I wasn't there. Just followed along on these boards and social media. They said they were sold out pretty early into the show. You saw different. Maybe something got lost in translation. Either way, it was months before the beta was available to non-attendees. Remember they pushed back the beta period because it was about to be over and they still hadn't released the book? Then again if you got one at the con, perhaps you didn't follow along with that drama. To top it off some of those that got the beta were kinda being rotten about it on these boards. Wouldn't give out basic information. It was torture!

And they announced the beta being at the con like a week before the con. It's a reasonable conclusion to assume F&D will be there too.

I wasn't there. Just followed along on these boards and social media. They said they were sold out pretty early into the show. You saw different. Maybe something got lost in translation. Either way, it was months before the beta was available to non-attendees. Remember they pushed back the beta period because it was about to be over and they still hadn't released the book? Then again if you got one at the con, perhaps you didn't follow along with that drama. To top it off some of those that got the beta were kinda being rotten about it on these boards. Wouldn't give out basic information. It was torture!

And they announced the beta being at the con like a week before the con. It's a reasonable conclusion to assume F&D will be there too.

I wouldn't exactly call people getting their books in late September as being "months of waiting." Then again, could be a whole host of reasons for the delay in getting the books out. Which given that FFG made the announcement to prolong the beta testing period before the book even came out suggests that they knew up front there was going to be delays in shipping the books out (which again could be something that was totally beyond their control) in the quantities expected. For all anyone knows, they could have decided that rather than simply ship the remaining stock out on "first ordered, first served" basis they'd instead wait until they had the full stock in their warehouses and then start shipping them. Or the remaining books that I saw could have all been sold by the end of the convention, leaving the AoR Beta as "sold out" by the time the Dealer Hall closed on Sunday.

Heck, for all we know, Jay Little, Sam Stewart, and Andy Fischer could have torn out the page with the Duty chart from each of the remaining AoR Beta books so they could plaster the walls of Steve Horvath's office with "duty"

"Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill. For ALL life is of value... and no one has the right to take it away!"

I tend to go with Jedi Knights as knights more than monks. And so have about as much compunction about killing people as the Knights in Game of Thrones.

"Avoid rather than check, check rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill. For ALL life is of value... and no one has the right to take it away!"

I tend to go with Jedi Knights as knights more than monks. And so have about as much compunction about killing people as the Knights in Game of Thrones.

Interesting. Based on anything or just a personal choice?

Interesting. Based on anything or just a personal choice?

Obi wan lops that dudes arm off, and I never got the impression that Luke was holding back.

They carry lethal cutting weapons.

Honestly, it seemed reasonable to me.

Interesting. Based on anything or just a personal choice?

Obi wan lops that dudes arm off, and I never got the impression that Luke was holding back.

They carry lethal cutting weapons.

Honestly, it seemed reasonable to me.

Fascinating.

I want to make it very clear that I am in no way trying to disparage your read of events. It's just so very different from my own read and that sort of variance is incredibly interesting to me.

I think there was an older interview with George Lucas that had him explaining that he drew quite a bit from the Samurai culture of Feudal/Shogunate Japan, or at least the idealized version of such. The samurai were well-equipped (both in terms of armor and weaponry) and very dangerous warriors, who adhered to a code of ethics (in theory at least) to guide their actions. For the samurai, about the only time you should draw your katana is when you intend to kill or maim the other guy, much like how in modern firearms training they teach you to only point a gun at someone if you intend to shoot them.

So while a Jedi does carry a very dangerous weapon, it's not so they can run about killing folks as they please, but rather that if push comes to shove and they have to fight, said fight will be over rather quickly.

Consider the cantina scene in A New Hope. Had Obi-Wan not quickly and literally disarmed those two goons, they would have been firing blasters into a crowded area, and quite possibly causing lots of "innocent" bystanders to be injured. While the RPG doesn't really cover the "innocent bystander" scenario, it's something that's very much a consideration whenever somebody uses a firearm in a crowded area, so that's likely to carry over to Star Wars as well. The bartender in the cantina is even screaming "No blasters, no blasters!" for just this reason as he's diving behind the counter (and into cover). Obi-Wan had already tried being reasonable with these two ("This little one's not worth the trouble. Come, let me buy you a drink...") and acted in the best means possible to resolve the situation before it escalated and caused a lot more injury. Thus, he breaks out the lightsaber, takes those two goons down in a matter of seconds, and nobody else got hurt beyond the two individuals that escalated the argument into violence.

It's obvious from the Prequel films that Jedi aren't shy about violence, but it's not their go-to solution if they can help it. Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM could have easily killed Watto and stolen the parts needed to fix the Queen's ship... but he didn't. He offered to pay for them, tried a mind trick to get Watto to accept the money he was offering, and when that didn't work set off (in a bit of a huff) to try and find some other non-violent solution. Your typical party of wandering murder-hobos would probably have just killed Watto, ransacked his shop, and gone about their merry blood-spattered way.

Also from TPM, you have Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan very calmly sitting and waiting to meet with the Trade Federation leaders, and only break out the lightsabers when the Viceroy makes the first move and blows up the non-armed ship they arrived in. Even then, they don't go charging into battle until after the room is being pumped full of deadly gas, at which point it becomes clear that the Trade Federation leadership isn't interested in a peaceful resolution.

In AotC, yes Obi-Wan did literally disarm Zam, but she'd proven herself to be dangerous already and had a blaster drawn and ready to shoot Obi-Wan in the back. As soon as her arm was lopped off, the lightsaber was put away and Obi-Wan and Anakin hauled out of the nightclub to question her.

In RotJ, we've got Luke almost bending over backwards to give Jabba a chance to peacefully resolve the issue of Han Solo's imprisonment, While Luke may have known such efforts were doomed from the start, he at least tried, though he probably took a little too much joy in setting things up to bring Jabba's criminal endeavors to a violent end, but at the same time Luke wasn't really a Jedi Knight just yet (had the skills, just not the proper mindset), and in fact part of the film's story is that he's teetering on the edge of becoming just like his father.

Morningfire and I have a very similar read on the Jedi, it seems (and those citations are just the films).

By the time Yoda is in the mix you can starting working in aspects of Eastern monasticism.

Knights live by a code. Sjust that like samurai and Jedi, their code does not, in the end, have a fundamental problem with people ending up dead by the warriors blade.

Certainly a factor, yes.

However, with the fantastical nature of "Star Wars", the harder realities of Knights and Samurai don't allow for (in my opinion) direct analogies.

Below are my examples of what the Jedi may be more akin to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPiYBfTE1ec

Not with this clip is Arthur's realization that he used the power of Excalibur selfishly. His penance for doing so and reward for owning to his mistakes.

I did not include a Samurai example as I know little of the culture and decided to highlight my ignorance. Instead, I include an example of the sort of Eastern philosophy that I do see in the Jedi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amkDvp--hs4