Hi

I'm a bit confused about the redirect in Melee in relation to cards that have a response related to the challenge

e.g. Euron's Crow's Eye: After an opponent declares a challenge against you ...

So if player A attacks player B and the challenge is redirected, does Euron's response kick in

Bringers of Law: After an opponent initiates a challenge against you ...

Conclave: After The Conclave is declared as an attacker .....

I assume the Response, whether for attacker or defender is at the same point in time and I think the redirects count as cancels?

First, remember that when you are responding to "after a challenge is declared/initiated," that has to be played in the response step for the "initiate challenge/declare attackers" framework window. Any redirect that comes AFTER that point is going to come too late. The redirect itself is not considered to be initiating a challenge, so it doesn't create an "after a challenge is declared/initiated" response opportunity. That means Lord Commander and the Supports mechanic come too late to affect the kind of response you are talking about, period.

Example: If A attacks B and C redirects the challenge to himself with the Lord Commander title or the Supports mechanic (both would happen as part of declaring defending characters), C cannot trigger his Euron or Bringers of Law because it is too late to trigger "after an opponent initiates a challenge against you" responses.

Next, remember that the play restrictions for responses are checked when the response is triggered, not when the response opportunity is created. So "after a challenge is declared/initiated against you " responses only care who the defending player is at the time they are triggered, not who was named as the defending player when the "declare challenge type and opponent" framework event resolved. Since Crown Regent always takes place before any responses are triggered in the "initiate challenge/declare attackers" framework window, such responses will always look at the "new" defender in that situation.

Example: If A attacks B and B redirects to C (must be before any responses are triggered), B could NOT trigger his Euron/Bringers of Law, but C could.

The only place where things get kind of tricky is with the "redirect Shadows Varys." That's because the redirect is a response to initiating the challenge - just like all the other responses you are describing. So the following actually IS possible with Varys (assume B is First Player):

1) A attacks B.

2) B triggers the response on his Euron (at the time the response is triggered, he is the "against you" defending player).

3) C triggers Varys to redirect the challenge to himself.

4) A passes.

5) B passes.

6) C triggers the response on his Bringers of Law (at the time the response is triggered, HE is the "against you" defending player because of Varys).

Notice that none of this has anything to do with "after this character is declared as an attacker" responses (like Conclave) because redirects do not change or affect the attacking characters in any way.

Actually, your point 3 is incorrect, because Varys says "redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent", which excludes Varys' controller. Adding a player D as the new defender and controller of Bringers of Law takes care of that, though.

Thanks for the details

Actually, your point 3 is incorrect, because Varys says "redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent", which excludes Varys' controller. Adding a player D as the new defender and controller of Bringers of Law takes care of that, though.

So... the point is correct, but the example is wrong?

Actually, your point 3 is incorrect, because Varys says "redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent", which excludes Varys' controller. Adding a player D as the new defender and controller of Bringers of Law takes care of that, though.

Why would it exclude Vary's controller?

His text reads:

If you have more than 1 opponent Varys gains: "Response: After an opponent declares a challenge, put Varys into Shadows to redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent of your choice, ignoring any Title restrictions.

Because it can only redirect to an opponent. You are not an opponent to yourself since you are controlling Varys.

Actually, your point 3 is incorrect, because Varys says "redirect the challenge against an eligible opponent", which excludes Varys' controller. Adding a player D as the new defender and controller of Bringers of Law takes care of that, though.

So... the point is correct, but the example is wrong?

Something like that (assuming your point is "it's possible for 2 different players to trigger response to same challenge being declared against them"). Though it's only one specific part of your example that is incorrect.

Well, my overall point was "this is all pretty straightforward until you involve that version of Varys," so yeah, that'll do.

I didn't verify Varys text, so the mistake in the example is all on me. Just teasing a bit that your use of the word "point" there didn't feel correct either since the underlying meaning (ie, Varys = wonky results) was still good, bad example notwithstanding.

Because it can only redirect to an opponent. You are not an opponent to yourself since you are controlling Varys.

I understand cards are read in the context of their owner/controller, but without you pointing it out I would have never thought that it was saying to choose an opponent from your own perspective. It makes sense now, but I clearly didn't read it that way.

Just teasing a bit that your use of the word "point" there didn't feel correct either since the underlying meaning (ie, Varys = wonky results) was still good, bad example notwithstanding.

I was thinking along the lines of "bullet point", though that might be incorrect (but I'm not a native English speaker).

Next, remember that the play restrictions for responses are checked when the response is triggered, not when the response opportunity is created. So "after a challenge is declared/initiated against you " responses only care who the defending player is at the time they are triggered, not who was named as the defending player when the "declare challenge type and opponent" framework event resolved. Since Crown Regent always takes place before any responses are triggered in the "initiate challenge/declare attackers" framework window, such responses will always look at the "new" defender in that situation.

There is a response of Damon Stone on this principle which contradicts your logic :

I would be glad to know if FFG officialy clarified this concept or if we are still in a grey area of speculation.

^{I would be glad to know if FFG officialy clarified this concept or if we are still in a grey area of speculation.}

The following has been in the FAQ for over a year now (p. 27):

" Can I trigger The Dreadfort (Dreadfort Betrayal 105) when I play a Bolton Refugee (Refugees of War 83) with a printed STR of 2, and have Winterfell Castle (Core 25) in play, which gives the Bolton Refugee +1 STR?

Qualifying characteristics of cards are checked at the time a Response effect is triggered. In this example, the Bolton character enters play and has its STR raised to 3 (by the constant effect on Winterfell Castle) when it enters play, which occurs before the Response effect is triggered. When the Response is triggered, the character’s STR is 3, and it has just been played, so you can use The Dreadfort to draw a card."

In the "Dreadfort/Refugee/Winterfell Castle" example, playing a character is the "triggering condition" (or "response opportunity" as it is referred to in other places in the rules) that doesn't change. But the FAQ makes clear that references to the character's STR, affiliation, icon count, etc. are "qualifiers" on the type of character that was played, and those are checked as part of checking the play restrictions when triggering a Response.

For the redirection question, you see something similar. The "after an opponent initiates a challenge" part of those responses is the main triggering condition that Damon refers to in the ruling you quote, and that, indeed, remains constant and available though the action window once the response opportunity is created. But the "against you" part is a qualifying characteristic of such a Response, and THAT gets checked at the time the Response is triggered.

So there is nothing contradictory between what I said about changing the opponent against whom the challenge is initiated and the fact that the "after this character stands" response opportunity doesn't go away if someone kneels your Brothel Guard before you get a chance to trigger his own Response. The existence of the response opportunity doesn't change ("play a character" or "initiates a challenge"), but the qualifiers can ("STR 3 or higher" or "against you").