So there is no new tech being discovered? Some is merely "re-discovered?"

Sometime you have to point out the rhetoric in a rhetorical question.

There's lots of new technologies being invented out of the minds of brilliant geniuses or from applying commonly held principles. Unfortunately the people doing these things are all heretics and have to be burned, or since this is a crime against the AdMech, more likely turned into servitors. Then burned.

The reason why a player-character cannot reverse engineer archeotech is tied to the reason why invention is heresy and regarded as extremely dangerous: Most of it was made by Artificial Intelligences.

This (as most concepts in 40K) is a pretty common concept in sci-fi, where our friendly robot/machine helpers make themselves and our tools ever more advanced, to a point where no human is really able to comprehend it any more. This was some 20K years ago, during the Golden Age of Mankind (aka Dark Age of Technology). The AIs ran everything, made everything, we spread across the stars, everything was hunky-dory. Then came psykers, and mankind ripped itself apart and waged war on the machines in the process.

The machines (men of iron) all buggered off suddenly, and mankind was left alone in a nasty warp-storm for 10 thousand years until everything was well and truly screwed.

Now we have some leftover scraps from our previous glory, but we haven’t the (artificial, large and powerful) minds needed to comprehend them. And we dare not try to re-create those minds, in fear of another galactic catastrophe.

It would take the entire resources of a forge world centuries to comprehend the workings of a recently discovered, sufficiently advanced STC. A seneschal and her personal crew? Forget it.

Sure, but... who cares about George Mann?

Who cares about Jervis Johnson? But we still had to bend a knee to him.

So there is no new tech being discovered? Some is merely "re-discovered?"

Sometime you have to point out the rhetoric in a rhetorical question.

The entire Dark Age of Technology is dark because people started worshipping machines and turned to blind materialism. The Dark Age of Technology was actually the pinnacle of human technology known in the universe, and the modern-day Imperium, the Ecclesiarchy and the AdMech pretty much collectively agreed that it wasn't all that, and promptly decided to slap their proverbial dicks against these mysterious hieroglyphs until the machines does something.

Can we place distinguish between an archaeotech toe nail clipper and a teleportarium? While reverse engineering the former may or may not be a doable proposition in finite time, the latter is probably quite difficult and time consuming? At least if you don't want to vanish in the Warp, never to be heard from again?

Alex

Can we place distinguish between an archaeotech toe nail clipper and a teleportarium? While reverse engineering the former may or may not be a doable proposition in finite time, the latter is probably quite difficult and time consuming? At least if you don't want to vanish in the Warp, never to be heard from again?

Alex

You bet your ass that that is a fine toenail clipper and that the resident AdMech has no idea what to make of it.

How do you think Power Weapons came about?

Sure, but... who cares about George Mann?

Who cares about Jervis Johnson? But we still had to bend a knee to him.

I bend knee to no man.

Not, "I bend knee to no Mann"?

Not, "I bend knee to no Mann"?

I would also like to add to the intense amount of Heresy there happens to be in the rebuilding of aercheotech. Obviously (as stated on other forums) it would depend on who was around but I can't think of an Inquisitor allowing this to happen in anyway shape or form lol

I would also like to add to the intense amount of Heresy there happens to be in the rebuilding of aercheotech. Obviously (as stated on other forums) it would depend on who was around but I can't think of an Inquisitor allowing this to happen in anyway shape or form lol

Gotta disagree with this. It is specifically the mandate of the Explorator's order to research and recover lost technology. That's why they travel on RT vessels! Researching and reconstructing lost STC patterns is specifically NOT heresy! Of course PROVING that it's archeotech and not something new (Which CAN be tech-heresy!) might be more difficult! This would also apply to the processes used in creating it. After all, Factories are machines as well and have their own machine spirits.

"What's stopping her from taking apart our Teleportarium and figuring out how it works so she can make more of them?"

If understanding and reproducing archeotech was easy someone would have done that thousands of years ago. Entire groups of Admech geniuses with access to advanced facilities and deep dark tech secrets have most likely spent their entire lives attempting to figure out and reproduce teleportarium, unsuccessfully apparently since it's still Archeotech. That's the entire point of Archeotech, it's sufficiently advanced technology that it might as well be magic.

If I recall correctly, a suit of Tactical Dreadmought Armor with Chainfists used to be referred to (back in the Dark Age) as...

Mk. <insert some letters and numbers> deep space repair suit.

"What's stopping her from taking apart our Teleportarium and figuring out how it works so she can make more of them?"

If understanding and reproducing archeotech was easy someone would have done that thousands of years ago. Entire groups of Admech geniuses with access to advanced facilities and deep dark tech secrets have most likely spent their entire lives attempting to figure out and reproduce teleportarium, unsuccessfully apparently since it's still Archeotech. That's the entire point of Archeotech, it's sufficiently advanced technology that it might as well be magic.

Along this vein; It's not just a matter of disassembling something (If that's even possible without destroying it or yourself!). It's understanding the materials and processes used to create it well enough to reproduce them. Take Adamantium for example: It does not appear anywhere on the periodic table (or the chart of Nuclides for those who know what that is!) that I'm aware of. So what's it made of? You can't just melt down a block of it to find out! If you actually have the machines that produce it you might know the raw materials that are required, but in what proportion? What other esoteric processes are required to configure it? And that's just for a relatively simple block of metal!

Now you're looking at something that rips open a hole in space and thrusts a living complex organism through it to appear accurately at another location and velocity! All in the space of a split second! I'm thinking that an Arch-Magos, starting out with just a single working copy of said device, could spend the next 10 generations of his descendants figuring that one out! And they still might fail!

"What's stopping her from taking apart our Teleportarium and figuring out how it works so she can make more of them?"

If understanding and reproducing archeotech was easy someone would have done that thousands of years ago. Entire groups of Admech geniuses with access to advanced facilities and deep dark tech secrets have most likely spent their entire lives attempting to figure out and reproduce teleportarium, unsuccessfully apparently since it's still Archeotech. That's the entire point of Archeotech, it's sufficiently advanced technology that it might as well be magic.

Along this vein; It's not just a matter of disassembling something (If that's even possible without destroying it or yourself!). It's understanding the materials and processes used to create it well enough to reproduce them. Take Adamantium for example: It does not appear anywhere on the periodic table (or the chart of Nuclides for those who know what that is!) that I'm aware of. So what's it made of? You can't just melt down a block of it to find out! If you actually have the machines that produce it you might know the raw materials that are required, but in what proportion? What other esoteric processes are required to configure it? And that's just for a relatively simple block of metal!

Now you're looking at something that rips open a hole in space and thrusts a living complex organism through it to appear accurately at another location and velocity! All in the space of a split second! I'm thinking that an Arch-Magos, starting out with just a single working copy of said device, could spend the next 10 generations of his descendants figuring that one out! And they still might fail!

And yet a Tau fire warrior can figure it out in ten minutes and upgrade the quality with nothing but his trusty wrench and some elbow grease.

And yet a Tau fire warrior can figure it out in ten minutes and upgrade the quality with nothing but his trusty wrench and some elbow grease.

Ahh, so that is what all the hub bub is about the Tau DLC. I wondered why I had not purchased it yet.

Ahhh. Now I see, too. Thanks for the heads up. Note to self: No Tau characters allowed in game (as if I needed that note).

And yet a Tau fire warrior can figure it out in ten minutes and upgrade the quality with nothing but his trusty wrench and some elbow grease.

No! Just...No! You're talking about the technology triumphant talent I Assume? If I didn't disallow it completely I would probably set the time required (Which is the Gm's Prerogative according to the talent) in the decades or centuries for something like a teleportarium. As I remember in the Tau background, The heights of Imperial technology (Archeotech) are still well beyond the base technical ability of the Tau! (The Tau "Warp drive" was an incorrectly reproduced version of an Imperial Warp drive. Their lack of Navigators prevented them from being able to reproduce the device.) I find hard to accept that a fire caste anything could "Improve" something as complex as a Teleportarium! Earth Caste maybe! But not a fire warrior. That's like saying an american Infantrymen (Arguably one of the most technologically advanced militaries in the world!) could rebuild the power plant of an Aircraft carrier! Really?... That's pretty dopey!

Question, has there ever been an entire archeotech ship described? I don't mean the AdMech bolted parts into one of their hulls, but an actual human vessel from the Dark Age of Technology. I have heard varying descriptions of how advanced it was supposed to be, from being similar to what the IoM still uses just with a nicer paint job all the way to making Eldar and Tau tech look like a joke. I suppose fluff wise there very well could be a few hollowed out asteroids floating around in the void containing sealed hangars with working ships in them, not that I would dream of actually handing that out to any PCs.

Question, has there ever been an entire archeotech ship described? I don't mean the AdMech bolted parts into one of their hulls, but an actual human vessel from the Dark Age of Technology. I have heard varying descriptions of how advanced it was supposed to be, from being similar to what the IoM still uses just with a nicer paint job all the way to making Eldar and Tau tech look like a joke. I suppose fluff wise there very well could be a few hollowed out asteroids floating around in the void containing sealed hangars with working ships in them, not that I would dream of actually handing that out to any PCs.

While rogue traders do have a mandate to recover archotech they are not supposed to be playing with it, but rather handing it over to the admech.

And yet a Tau fire warrior can figure it out in ten minutes and upgrade the quality with nothing but his trusty wrench and some elbow grease.

I would probably set the time required (Which is the Gm's Prerogative according to the talent) in the decades or centuries for something like a teleportarium.

That's still faster than any tech-priest could do it. Check and mate, baka Gue'la gaijin.

And yet a Tau fire warrior can figure it out in ten minutes and upgrade the quality with nothing but his trusty wrench and some elbow grease.

I would probably set the time required (Which is the Gm's Prerogative according to the talent) in the decades or centuries for something like a teleportarium.

That's still faster than any tech-priest could do it. Check and mate, baka Gue'la gaijin.

Perhaps I am but that's still worlds better than a baka tau shofu! Anyway, Not necessarily mate. I had already stated that I would allow the tech priest to do the same thing! Probably in less time. Besides, the technology triumphant talent only allows for improvement (And is there even such a thing as "best quality" Archeotech?) not reproduction of an Item. So, IMO, no a Tau could not do that!

"What's stopping her from taking apart our Teleportarium and figuring out how it works so she can make more of them?"

If understanding and reproducing archeotech was easy someone would have done that thousands of years ago. Entire groups of Admech geniuses with access to advanced facilities and deep dark tech secrets have most likely spent their entire lives attempting to figure out and reproduce teleportarium, unsuccessfully apparently since it's still Archeotech. That's the entire point of Archeotech, it's sufficiently advanced technology that it might as well be magic.

Along this vein; It's not just a matter of disassembling something (If that's even possible without destroying it or yourself!). It's understanding the materials and processes used to create it well enough to reproduce them. Take Adamantium for example: It does not appear anywhere on the periodic table (or the chart of Nuclides for those who know what that is!) that I'm aware of. So what's it made of? You can't just melt down a block of it to find out! If you actually have the machines that produce it you might know the raw materials that are required, but in what proportion? What other esoteric processes are required to configure it? And that's just for a relatively simple block of metal!

Now you're looking at something that rips open a hole in space and thrusts a living complex organism through it to appear accurately at another location and velocity! All in the space of a split second! I'm thinking that an Arch-Magos, starting out with just a single working copy of said device, could spend the next 10 generations of his descendants figuring that one out! And they still might fail!

You could go one step further and suggest that even if you could figure out how it worked AND how it was put together that doesn't mean he can build it. Why? Because the tools required to process and manufacture the parts and put them together are likely equally as extinct as the knowledge of how it works and how it was made.

If I gave a computer engineer the contents of my garage tool box and told him to build me a microchip all I'd get is dirty looks.

"How to build a Teleportarium, step one. Take a block of distilled spacetime and ensure warp stability by using a Quantum Chronal Lathe to remove excess potential beyond approved tolerances (see fig 1.a-c). Uhhh... OK, what's a Quantum Chronal Lathe and how do I acquire a block of distilled spacetime?"

Essentially the core problem is this:

Archeotech is ancient advanced technology from the DAoT and before, state of the art even in it's own far more advanced time archeotech is generally bespoke and unique.

STC tech is rugged, standardised and modular, it was designed by the great minds of the DAoT with an eye to foolproof simplicity to keep civilisation functioning on far flung colonies no matter how badly the manure hit the rotating appliance.

In short saying the AdMech can reverse engineer archeotech because they can only with great difficulty build flawless STC tech is rather like saying a child can reverse engineer and reproduce the Tardis because they have made a Lego set by following the instuctions.

STC tech is rugged, standardised and modular

No, it's not. Tau is modular and this blows the minds of the ad mech.

In short saying the AdMech can reverse engineer archeotech because they can build with great difficulty build flawless STC tech is rather like saying a child can reverse engineer and reproduce the Tardis because they have made a Lego set by following the instuctions.

If the child involved is a time lord, maybe.

That said, as has been frequently repeated: the ad mech can and do understand the technology involved. This has been spelled out many times. Hell the Entire Plot of the first souldrinkers novel revolved around exactly this, as does the plot of the red and black. STC can be plans. They can also be examples of the technology in question, or even just a reconstruction based on a description of a peice of technology. The latter two most definitely would require an understanding of the tech involved. If you want a very specific case of them doing this, they do it with the leman russ vanquisher when the STC is lost.

Because a small group within the AdMech can usually only means a small group within the AdMech can; they hoard secrets of data from each other almost more than from the unenlightened, as if the God-Emperor and the Void Dragon C'Tan are running a contest among the senior Magos, and the one who finds the top seven secrets first wins a prize. The fact that teleportariums are so rare, and often need older ships to support them shows that the AdMech, as a whole, really doesn't know how to mass-produce them, or some component in their manufacture is no longer easy to come by, thus making knowing how to build it useless. As an example, in Star Wars, before the canon got shot by one, ship cloaks came in two forms: hybridium and stygium. the first weren't too hard to make, or even too expensive, but they cloaked both ways, leaving you blind to the outside, as they were to you. When someone figured out stygium was as good, and better than hybridium, they made the second kind, and it works like cloaks should. The problem was stygium is RARE, as in all they found for most of the stories would fit in your garage. This lasted until a planet with a core of the stuff was found, but they lost that after the Phantom Project. Even knowing exactly how to build one didn't matter without the key, exotic component, and that was what pushed the price tag up to 1,000,000 credits/unit base, or whatever it was. SOMETHING about the teleportariums makes them iffy to make now, whether it is plans missing, older power systems to feed them (whatever makes the Reliquary of Mars ships like archeotech more, other than the rule), or because the unobtainium needed to catalyze the system is now, well, you read the name.

It's my understanding, and it could be different now, that STCs were plans and machines that could independently manufacture things, without the need of dedicated AdMech presence. Things you would need on a new world could be built, without needing to teach the natives, or fresh colonists, how to do that, and such. Thus they were standard, and the Ford-made assembly line would crank out numerous copies of the same lasgun, Leman Russ, or air-scrubber. Some of them are the only place left where info on how to make what they do still exists, and the Imperium's ability to promptly mass-produce ANYTHING is ALWAYS in question, so they are always valuable. Again, that is my take on them, and subject to error.

I know this was asked an age ago, but I didn't see anyone answer it...

Correct me if I'm wrong ( and I might be since I haven't read much 40K fiction ), but isn't Priests of Mars a single book rather than a series?

You are right, "Priests of Mars" is the name of a single novel. But it is also the first of a series (which they seem to be calling simply "Adeptus Mechanicus"). The second one is out, it's called "Lords of Mars."