I'm trying very hard to make it a competitive list. I feel like it's almost there, but you are giving up a significant firepower over an XXBB list for the trade off of better positioning and board control... So it requires a high degree of skill to fly well whereas an XXBB list might be more forgiving. So I don't know if I'm just not quite good enough with it, or if it's just not quite good enough to cut it.

I don't really know if I'd call it a reactionary list though (sorry if I did above)... It's more of an adaptive list, but you still force the opponent to play on your terms. An adaptive list would adapt to the enemy terms (I think the Defender will fall into this category).

If it requires a high degree of skill, is it really adaptive? It seems to me that requiring a high degree of skill equates to being aware of certain things you shouldn't do. If there are many of those things, doesn't it make it less versatile and less adaptive?

(Again, I'm new to the abstract conceptualizing of this stuff, and just trying to understand. I ain't lookin' to take you down.)

In a Rock-Paper-Scissors world, the man with a multitool is king.

While you may not have an overwhelming response to any meta you meet, you've at least got something.

If I pack a TIE Swarm, I know that Assault Missiles are going to ruin my day. If I bring BBBB, I know that Ions are going to make me miserable.

In this instance, he's hoping to have at least some response to every possible list, so while you may run a squad that's 100% against 50% of the Meta, he's hoping for 50% against 100% of the Meta and trusting that player skill will make the difference (which is most often the case).

I'm trying very hard to make it a competitive list. I feel like it's almost there, but you are giving up a significant firepower over an XXBB list for the trade off of better positioning and board control... So it requires a high degree of skill to fly well whereas an XXBB list might be more forgiving. So I don't know if I'm just not quite good enough with it, or if it's just not quite good enough to cut it.

I don't really know if I'd call it a reactionary list though (sorry if I did above)... It's more of an adaptive list, but you still force the opponent to play on your terms. An adaptive list would adapt to the enemy terms (I think the Defender will fall into this category).

If it requires a high degree of skill, is it really adaptive? It seems to me that requiring a high degree of skill equates to being aware of certain things you shouldn't do. If there are many of those things, doesn't it make it less versatile and less adaptive?

(Again, I'm new to the abstract conceptualizing of this stuff, and just trying to understand. I ain't lookin' to take you down.)

In a Rock-Paper-Scissors world, the man with a multitool is king.

While you may not have an overwhelming response to any meta you meet, you've at least got something.

If I pack a TIE Swarm, I know that Assault Missiles are going to ruin my day. If I bring BBBB, I know that Ions are going to make me miserable.

In this instance, he's hoping to have at least some response to every possible list, so while you may run a squad that's 100% against 50% of the Meta, he's hoping for 50% against 100% of the Meta and trusting that player skill will make the difference (which is most often the case).

This. Thus why I'm stating that it requires a high degree of skill. But I'm unsure if I'm just not quite skilled enough to pull it off, especially against top tiered players, or if the concept is just doesn't work quite well enough to overcome it's inherent handicap.

Bohrdumb, you explained it in such a simple and yet elegant way, thank you!

In a Rock-Paper-Scissors world, the man with a multitool is king.

While you may not have an overwhelming response to any meta you meet, you've at least got something.

If I pack a TIE Swarm, I know that Assault Missiles are going to ruin my day. If I bring BBBB, I know that Ions are going to make me miserable.

Great analogy, but let's play with it a little bit, because it doesn't seem complete.

You say the Assault Missile is the answer to the TIE Swarm, etc., but that matches a set of upgrades to a set of platforms, rather than platforms vs. platforms. (i.e. the rock, the paper, and the scissors are all platforms in their own right.)

Are there particular squad paradigms (such as the swarm, HSF, XXBB) that are best against others squad paradigms irrespective of the upgrades? Is there a circular tendency to this, in the same way as Rock<Paper<Scissors<Rock?

Swarm > HSF > Interceptors > Mid PS Rebels > Low PS Rebels > Swarm

Not everyone will agree with that, and it obviously doesn't include all build types, and I'm sure there can be expansion, but basically the swarm eats Han alive because he can't kill them fast enough (there are too many)... Han kills interceptors because they can't arc dance... Interceptors kill mid PS rebels because they spent points on a PS bid that's useless, and then the higher PS interceptors can arc dodge anyways... The Mid PS rebels beat low PS rebels because they shoot first but have the same # of ships... the Low PS rebels have enough points to put into upgrades that help them handle swarms better since they have 0 points invested in PS, but are still higher PS than true swarms.

Swarm > HSF > Interceptors > Mid PS Rebels > Low PS Rebels > Swarm

Okay, and I then take it that upgrades serve to (attempt to) upend this basic set of equations.

Oh, and then there's flying skill involved.

Great analogy, but let's play with it a little bit, because it doesn't seem complete.

You say the Assault Missile is the answer to the TIE Swarm, etc., but that matches a set of upgrades to a set of platforms, rather than platforms vs. platforms. (i.e. the rock, the paper, and the scissors are all platforms in their own right.)

Are there particular squad paradigms (such as the swarm, HSF, XXBB) that are best against others squad paradigms irrespective of the upgrades? Is there a circular tendency to this, in the same way as Rock<Paper<Scissors<Rock?

It's not really as cut-and-dry as RPS is, particularly as there are a substantial number of fleets that defy archetype.

However, each list does have match-ups against which it tends to be strong, and match-ups against which it tends to be weak.

You can tweak your strength and vulnerability to them with different upgrades.

An Alpha-Strike fleet (one who flings missiles at the enemy fleet, trusting that the one turn of high-damage will cripple their opponent's fleet to the point of the now missile-less fleet has a substantial numbers advantage) is naturally weak against a Swarm (I don't care if you killed the ships you shot at; I have more).

Swapping out Assault Missiles instead of Concussion/Cluster sacrifices some of your single-target damage in favor of being able to hurt the Swarm.

Similarly, the Swarm suffers against fleets with high survivability (I have dozens of attacks, but none of them can get through!).

Sacking a TIE Fighter to promote another to Howlrunner will give you the damage boost you need to punch through their dodging and hull. (Re-rolls! Getcher Re-rolls! Inna bun!)

High Agility fleets suffer against fleets with very few, hard-hitting attacks, and so on and so forth.

I would strongly suggest holding off on A-wings until Refit. They're really bad - their jousting value is currently halfway between a TIE Advanced and an X-wing. After Refit they'll make as good jousters as B-wings, but they will be tanks, which will take some tactical adjustment to optimize.

For now I think a Blue is much better than a PtL Green for the same cost. Regionals results seem to bear this out. A-wings see 0.37% of weighted average point usage usage in the Final Cut / Top Third.

As you've said yourself, jousting is only part of the equation. A wings are not designed to be jousting. Likewise interceptors aren't designed to be jousting. Ships not designed to be straight forward tanks will suffer in a straight forward analysis. And I'll also point out how it's a self fulfilling prophecy... Avoid A wings because they're not represented... therefore they are not represented... And I should be contributing at least 2 of those A wing usages that you have on record Might as well go for a 3rd, right?

Then go for it, its easy to cheer for the underdog.

You still have a non trivial damage deficit to overcome even with PtL enabling TL+F though. Averaged across the meta game you should be at around 78% damage output with 2 base dice + F+TL compared to 3 base dice + F. The B-wing is also slightly more durable. You're spending points for positioning.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108727-when-is-expose-worth-it/?p=1123321

Counter-intuitively, I still think that A-wings make better tanks than flankers. Stick them in front to block, and put your glass cannons in the back (X's and B's). If you come at me with a flanking A-wing, I'm just going to ignore it, eat its damage, and take out Garven or the Dagger first. Much better ROI.

Certaintly that is a possibility given a particular match up. One of my favorite strategies to do against a swarm is to come from the side, and then after the rest of the squad has moved, one can typically predict where HR is going to go, and I can go block her, leaving her action-less, out of formation, and typically at an odd angle so she can't easily rejoin... Against elite squads and interceptors, I send it in as a blocker... It's much easier to kill Fel if he can't boost/br out of arc, ptl to evade and get a free focus... all because that pesky 22 point A wing blocked his only logical movement... The flip side is that he does a non logical movement, which means he's out of position, and we all know that out of position interceptors are useless, if not dead.

I do struggle against HSF... Though it might just require a strategy change. By the time I kill the escorts, I'm typically down to the Y and A, neither of which can really punch through and out damage the YT... Perhaps I should go after the YT first, take it out in realistically 3 turns, and then have my A and Y to deal with the escorts... the Y can pretty consistantly remove an X or B from the fight with the ICT, meaning that the A is left to fight off the other one (which a smart player would group them up, but still, it shouldn't be too difficult to keep one at a time out of the fight, even if I'm not shooting it with the ICT every round).

But once you can add a refit to your GSP, you gain another 2 points to be able to upgrade Garven or someone with a droid, so that's good too.

The concept you are looking at with the list suggested above

I just had to weigh in on this as I love A-wings, in particular the Green Squad with PTL. I love them so much that I even custom painted one to match the name, it was primarily out of respect.

I ran a list not to far off for Imdaar weekend, and won two out of three events (the third I tried a HSF variant to mix it up and was punished for my transgression by the dice gods).

Ibtasam with HLC, AS, PTL

Biggs R2-D2, shield upgrade

Green Squad PTL, Assault Mis

Now I know what most will think here, it's only three ships, three ship lists aren't viable. Well the z95 and Ewing I now possess beg to differ. In Half my games no one even managed to kill Biggs. The idea was go for a straight up joust pulling all attention to Biggs and hammer the other squad, maybe using the missile first turn, maybe not, holding on to that threat proved a mighty fine threat in some of my games. After the initial sortie I tended to split up and take advantage of the B and A's mobility to pick apart what was left. It was for the most part very successful. I only lost one match and that was to horrendously bad dice rolls, and even then it was very very close. One opponent who actually went down fairly quickly, sat across from me aghast. He couldn't figure out how a three ship list with an AWING of all things did so much damage.

Basically it all comes down to finesse. Especially with the rebels you can't look at the ships in a straight forward manor. It was always a bit dicey in the beginning but through using asteroids for cover and playing ranges and arcs the first run can be mitigated, after that my two highly maneuverable ships kind of ran the board with Biggs dutifully plugging away when he could.

.

I've been theory crafting an update to the SNES list to try out once both Rebel Aces and Wave 4 drop and came up with the following update to try:

Xwing = Tarn Mison + R7 Astromech (PS3) = 25 pts.

Ywing = Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret + R3-A2 (PS2) = 25 pts.

Awing = Green Squadron Pilot + Test Pilot + Refit + PTL + Predator (PS3) = 23 pts.

Bwing = Dagger Squadron Pilot + Adv. Sensors (PS4) = 27 pts.

TOTAL = 100 pts.

The Ywing becomes a much more dangerous control ship being able to stress before the Ion shot with R3-A2 and still shoots last at whatever target is the ripest for the Ion shot.

The Xwing sacrifices one point in PS and stress mitigation options, but gains a lot in potential survivability with Tarn's synergy with the R7.

The Awing sacrifices the alpha strike potential for being a much more tricky ship to nail down with focus+evade+boost action options, and with predator, you get a free half TL each attack making you a more dangerous offensive threat. This is the way I forsee myself using Awings post Rebel Aces and I'm pretty excited about it. For 23 pts, that's a pretty tricky and point effective target.

The Bwing remains untouched as the Adv. Sensor and Dagger combo is pretty potent, as is and the most efficient way to utilize a Bwing. Not sure if the Rebel Aces options here will make me look at any adjustments because of how awesome Adv. Sensors is.

To be fair, I stopped reading when you said the B-wing didn't have viable named pilots. Ten Numb + Marksmanship + FCS. It doesn't get much better than that. And unless you're scared of red moved, Ibby isn't such a bad choice either

Barn, that looks like a good list. The dagger is going to be the obvious primary target by your opponent so you may need to be inventive in how to protect it. At a minimum keep it in the back, if it collides your own ships moving last it has sensors.

Khyros, you even thought of running Opportunist on a green? I've ran it to great effect. It'll be even better once Reb Aces hit.

Most people Ignore the A in favour of nuking the B or X, then there is your flanking A-wing with 3, possibly 4 dice, becomes as dangerous as as other ship - Until you lose things higher pilot skill and cannot reliably trigger opportunist unless you can force bumps.

Khyros, you even thought of running Opportunist on a green? I've ran it to great effect. It'll be even better once Reb Aces hit.

Most people Ignore the A in favour of nuking the B or X, then there is your flanking A-wing with 3, possibly 4 dice, becomes as dangerous as as other ship - Until you lose things higher pilot skill and cannot reliably trigger opportunist unless you can force bumps.

What about this version:

Red Squadron Pilot + R2 (PS4) = 24 pts.

Grey Squadron Pilot + R2 + Engine (PS4) = 25 pts.

Green Squadron Pilot + Refit + Test Pilot + Predator + Opportunist (PS3) = 24 pts.

Dagger Squadron Pilot + Adv. Sensors (PS4) = 27 pts.

TOTAL = 100 pts.

All the ultimate dog fighting versions of the X, Y, and B and all at PS4 meaning the A always shoots just after them with the best chance to trigger Opportunist and it has a Predator reroll, to boot. You can also swap the R2+Engine on the Grey for a traditional Ion Cannon, if you want. I think this would be more fun using the Greyhound build with the Y, though.

Khyros, you even thought of running Opportunist on a green? I've ran it to great effect. It'll be even better once Reb Aces hit.

Most people Ignore the A in favour of nuking the B or X, then there is your flanking A-wing with 3, possibly 4 dice, becomes as dangerous as as other ship - Until you lose things higher pilot skill and cannot reliably trigger opportunist unless you can force bumps.

My thought regarding opportunist on a Green is simple... For 23 points for a 3 dice attack with a limited dial, I'd rather take Tarn. Or for 25 points, a Rookie with EU. While I agree that Opp is best used on low PS pilots, so the green is prime for it, but realistically, Opp on a 2 dice attack seems like a bit of a waste of points.

@Barn, that list looks quite potent, I'm excited to try it out once Rebel aces lands. Sigh* list number 84 that I want to try... and they haven't even spoiled everything yet!

@unfairbanana - While I haven't spent much time playing Ten, I have spent plenty of time with Ibby. I love playing her, and including her in the lists. Unfortunately, any high threat B wing (when there's only 1) is too easily taken out of the game with a 21 point Rebel Op w/ ICT. Thus, there are no viable named B wings at the moment in competitive play, I stand by that...

Khyros, you even thought of running Opportunist on a green? I've ran it to great effect. It'll be even better once Reb Aces hit.

Most people Ignore the A in favour of nuking the B or X, then there is your flanking A-wing with 3, possibly 4 dice, becomes as dangerous as as other ship - Until you lose things higher pilot skill and cannot reliably trigger opportunist unless you can force bumps.

What about this version:

Red Squadron Pilot + R2 (PS4) = 24 pts.

Grey Squadron Pilot + R2 + Engine (PS4) = 25 pts.

Green Squadron Pilot + Refit + Test Pilot + Predator + Opportunist (PS3) = 24 pts.

Dagger Squadron Pilot + Adv. Sensors (PS4) = 27 pts.

TOTAL = 100 pts.

All the ultimate dog fighting versions of the X, Y, and B and all at PS4 meaning the A always shoots just after them with the best chance to trigger Opportunist and it has a Predator reroll, to boot. You can also swap the R2+Engine on the Grey for a traditional Ion Cannon, if you want. I think this would be more fun using the Greyhound build with the Y, though.

I prefer Tarn to Red and being PS 3 he can still shoot before the A. I also think that X and B should be able to strip most tokens without the Y helping. That allows the Y to become a Gold with Ion. Without proxies of Rebel Aces, you can

Dagger with AS

Tarn with R7

Green with Opportunist

Gold with Ion & R3-A2

The lockdown control of the Y sets up opportunist on its own, and is something that has to be dealt with so it can draw fire off the B. Tarn makes a great late game ship.

I prefer Tarn to Red and being PS 3 he can still shoot before the A. I also think that X and B should be able to strip most tokens without the Y helping. That allows the Y to become a Gold with Ion. Without proxies of Rebel Aces, you can

Dagger with AS

Tarn with R7

Green with Opportunist

Gold with Ion & R3-A2

The lockdown control of the Y sets up opportunist on its own, and is something that has to be dealt with so it can draw fire off the B. Tarn makes a great late game ship.

If you want to apply the R3 stress more often you could also use:

Hobie with R3-A2

Dagger with AS

Green with Opportunist

Gold with Ion

The ABXY list that I want to try (post aces) is:

26: Jake Farrell w/ Test Pilot, VI, PtL, Chardaan-A

25: Blue Sqd w/ Advanced Sensors

26: Garven Dreis

23: Gold Sqd w/ Ion Cannon Turret

Total: 100

With both PS 9 and 6, it's a fairly high PS for a 4 ship list. Jake is an absolute nut by himself and Garven can toss him a focus if need be too. Since Garven moves first, you will often know if he has a shot to use his focus before Jake decides to PtL in the activation phase, or wait until Garven chucks it to him. Being able to boost, barrel roll, and sit on a focus token AFTER Jake attacks is the ultimate hit&run. It even works if he bumps and loses his action!

If you want to shave a point for initiative bid, swapping the AS on the blue for FCS would be a great way. It synergizes with Garven better anyway, but I just love AS so **** much.

Xwing = Tarn Mison + R7 Astromech (PS3) = 25 pts.

Ywing = Gold Squadron Pilot + Ion Cannon Turret + R3-A2 (PS2) = 25 pts.

Awing = Green Squadron Pilot + Test Pilot + Refit + PTL + Predator (PS3) = 23 pts.

Bwing = Dagger Squadron Pilot + Adv. Sensors (PS4) = 27 pts.

TOTAL = 100 pts.

I really like this version of the squad. It has a ton of defense going for it, and each ship also has a good offensive option (Tarn can Focus and shoot back at his chosen attacker with TL/Focus every round, the Dagger is always dangerous, the Gold gives you good board control, and that A-wing might become the definitive way to run Green's and Tycho due to it's stupid amount of offense and defense.) Looking forward to Aces now so I can try this out.

The version I've always liked is the PS3/4 generics build

Red Squadron Pilot (23) (24 points)

-R2 Astromech (1)

Grey Squadron Pilot (20) (26 points)

-R2 Astromech (1)

-Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Dagger Squadron Pilot (24) (27 points)

-Advanced Sensors (3)

Green Squadron Pilot (19) (22 points)

-Push the Limit (3)

99 points (Initiative bid against other PS 4 builds, or drop both astromechs for a hull upgrade on the B for added tankiness or a stealth device on the A for added defense at 100 total.)

Tried it tonight with (A) Tycho + PTL + Homing Missile, (B) Blue, (X) Rookie, (Y) Gold + Ion. Against 4 Royal Guard Interceptors 1 had PTL, 1 had some other upgrade, and two had hull upgrades.

I put all my pilot skill 2's in one corner facing parallel with my side - not really sure why, but wanted to try something different. His 4 were pretty close together though not in the corner, so I dropped Tycho in about the middle to flank but hopefully not get too separated from the rest.

A-wing shot up the middle with the missile but only did one damage. He turned everyone after the Tycho, and I damaged and ionized one of his. Next turn, the A-wing finished off the missile-damaged one, and the other group took out the other damaged one.

Then it took a few turns to get anything in a firing arc again. Took out one Interceptor at range 3 and then had an ion cannon shot and a range 1 B-wing shot (since I'd already ionized that Interceptor), and got out without a scratch. I'd lost shields on the Y-wing and B-wing, and taken 1 hit on the A-wing from an asteroid.

I like the idea of the list, but it's hard to decide exactly how to spend the points, and there's not much room for upgrades or unique pilots.

I ran it for the first time on Thursday (local venue had a chievo for running it). Used Tycho with PTL, Dagger w/ Adv Sensors, Gold w/ Ion and a Rookie. Tycho was easily MVP in both matches, flanking all over the board while arc dodging like a boss. Hardest part was just remembering that he could never do a red maneuver.

Just received delivery of a B-Wing, so now I can make this list a possibility. So far I've been running garven, Dutch with ion, wedge and a prototype, so I'm planning to swap out wedge for the B. I could go for a named B wing, but wedge already suffers a bit in the list from not being able to get passed garven's focus. The B-Wing is the first ship I've got with systems, so I'm stuck with the FCS as my only option. That said I think in this list it fits perfectly - the whole list is based on giving target lock and focus to as many ships as possible to maximise damage output, so target locks for free is just gravy. If I use a blue it gives me a few points spare, so I can upgrade to a green with ptl (irritatingly one point short if opportunist which I think would be solid with this list. anyway, here's what I've got:

Garven Dreis

Dutch Vander, ion turret

blue squadron, FCS

Green squadron, ptl

yet to try it out, though.

Cheerio,

Ben