MathWing perspective:

The Firespray is more durable on a PS1 cost adjusted basis: normalied to a TIE Fighter, about 2.57x for the Firespray vs about 2.15x for the Defender.

This results in the Defender having the worst jousting efficiency in the game at about 80%, vs 85% for the Firespray, and for reference, 81% for the TIE Advanced.

The rear arc on the Firespray is amazing, as are its upgrades. But I still don't know about the white K-turn, so I'm undecided. I would probably, at this point, generally lean towards the Firespray. The PS6 Defender's named ability is really nice though. As long as you have a lower PS ship that has TL on it, you can get much improved damage out of him. For 5 points more over a Delta Squadron Pilot you really can't go wrong, if you were determined to have a Defender to begin with.

To completely fly in the face of the OP's original question, here's a squad that uses both.

Carnor Jax + Push the Limit (29)

Colonel Vessery (35)

Bounty Hunter + Weapons Engineer (36)

A more redundant (and probably better) idea is:

Soontir Fel + Push the Limit + Hull Upgrade + Targeting Computer (35)

Colonel Vessery (35)

Omicron Group Pilot + Fire Control System + Weapons Engineer + Engine Upgrade (30)

I actually like the idea of this 2nd build, even though it's still not as durable as many other Imperial lists. I don't think the loss of a Gunner on OGP is that significant, since the Shuttle should be firing with at least TL every turn, and many times TL + F.

I'm not really feeling the Delta Squadron Pilots so much. But if you had exactly 30 points left over then you could squeeze in a Defender, rather than having to spend 33 points on a Firespray, as Vorpal said.

I had actually thought of a similar list to your second one, but I traded Soontir for Turr, same load out and dropped the FCS on the shuttle to get ST-321 title.

I think that list has great potential.

In defense of the Firespray

--Krassis Trelix can still modify his Heavy Laser Cannon dice after a K-turn

--It's a better ship

--It makes a better weapon if an ewok attacks you while playing a game

Tie Defender is the best ship in the game.

Clearly an old Firespray isnt nearly as good.

Ship wise.

How manny of you will choose a defender option before grabbing a firespray?

Nice topic.

I see the wonderful new TIE Defender as The Empire's B-Wing.

I will use both ships.all of the time in EPIC. In smaller games I see the T-Def as a nice single ship for special roles and as a character ship, like the TIE Advanced. I am going to have Vadar and other special pilots in this ship... becuase I can.

The defender is the better vector for the HLC. The firespray is the better overall ship at PS 3 the Defender is better at PS 6+.

PS the Empire's B-wing is called the Lambda Shuttle.

Kath to me is probably the worst. You might trigger it once a game, if that. When it does trigger it kind of sucks. I rather give someone a crit than a stress token. Only thing saving her in my opinion is her PS 7.

Boba is meh... expensive and not a great ability.

I think Boba Fett's ability - especially with the infamous attached navigator - gets infinitely more interesting in an environment with TIE Phantoms out in force.

Kath, marksmanship, gunner and/or rebel captive is useful against phantoms too. stopping those buggers from cloaking is very, very useful!

The defender is the better vector for the HLC. The firespray is the better overall ship at PS 3 the Defender is better at PS 6+.

PS the Empire's B-wing is called the Lambda Shuttle.

Yeah but I mean that TIE type ships are more zoomies, so a TIE B-Wing thing is kind of what a Defender acts like...sorta-kinda.

well kit out both ships to the same point totals and have a one vs one match!!! although the Firespray has waaaaay more potential as far as kitting out goes!!! you are kind of limiting it if you have to match point totals with the defender..

The Defender just LOOKS menacing, that alone makes me consider it over thr Firespray. Scare factor.

I don't think one is better than the other, as they serve different purposes. That being said, I'd probably take the Firespray over the Defender. The extra shield and three hull plus the rear firing arc seem more advantageous to me than a white k turn.

Outclassed? No but the defender is very good and, as has been said before, they don't fit in the same role.

For now, I'm still going with the Defender. Mainly, because I'm still learning it. It doesn't help that I'm terrible at judging banks. But from what I saw, Rexler is good. Especially in a potential high hull environment designed to fight the Phantom.

For now, I'm still going with the Defender. Mainly, because I'm still learning it. It doesn't help that I'm terrible at judging banks. But from what I saw, Rexler is good. Especially in a potential high hull environment designed to fight the Phantom.

Oh he is crazy good against low agility ships and Huge ships, and regular good against everything else. One thing I like about the Defender is that it has no real on-the-table weaknesses. Huge ships are more easily blocked, Y-wings and B-Wings don't like range-command ships, A-Wings have trouble closing a match. TIEs are cheap but can drop like flies, Bombers don't close a match well either, and Lambda's do poorly against highly evasive and maneuverable targets even if you take EU. But the Defender has 6 HP, three of which are shields, 3 agility, hard hitting primaries, cannon slots, and a dial that ensures they have no trouble bringing them to bear on your opponent every single round. They work as flankers, jousters, special tactics guys, and are likely the second most difficult Imperial ship to close against 1-on-1, with the first likely being the Phantom.

Rear arc ftw

A white K is just as good.

Actually the larger base combined with rear arc is better, because the arc on the larger base actually covers more area.

There is no comparison. Firespray is by far a better overall ship. It is much much more versatile then the defender. Don't get me wrong, I love the defender and enjoy flying the ship. But it no way does it offer what the firespray does for the pts.

Rear arc > white k turn. For durability reasons alone. Firespray can play catch me if you can while still shooting its target. If the defender is low on HP, a white kturn is probably going to put you in multiple arcs.

Defender is good... Firespray is better.

I notice that alot of people are saying the Defenders dial is better - shedding stress from a Defender whilst keeping it in the fight is difficult. Not so with the 'spray! Nice green banks, nice rear arc. Pew pew pew!

Agreed. Being able to do a 1 forwards (or bank) and fire with the rear arc is often better than a 4 koiogran, regardless of relative colours, because the Koiogran pushes you a long way 'forwards' - now 'back' - before you flip over, making it more likely that someone you overfly will be in range 2 or 3 when you'd rather have an easy shot.

Being able to bank and shoot the rear arc is good, because you 'sweep' a large chunk of the table with your arc of fire - although I think that being able to koiogran then barrel roll probably makes this a wash.

I have come to the conclusion that this is an apples and oranges comparison. Depending on the role you want filled, if you want a ship that can fight in close consistently with primary weapons and survive, get a Firespray. Great options on crew help here as does 10 hit points.

If you want a ship that excels at range 2 -3 with a secondary weapon, get a Defender, having 3 Def here helps as does it's dial in keeping it out at R2-3. If you move into the named pilots, again being out at R2-3 with a secondary lends the edge to the Defender, in close with primaries goes to the Firespray.

Here is a list that demonstrates my conclusion.

Boba is meh... expensive and not a great ability.

I think Boba Fett's ability - especially with the infamous attached navigator - gets infinitely more interesting in an environment with TIE Phantoms out in force.

Boba Fett with Navigator and Veteran Instinct is one of the best counter for Phantoms. You move last and can change your heading and speed. Give him Engine Upgrade for even more repositioning.

He'll also be one of the best counter for a YT-2400 with a HLC turret to close the gap and come into range 1.

I think Boba's time has finally come.

Boba is meh... expensive and not a great ability.

I think Boba Fett's ability - especially with the infamous attached navigator - gets infinitely more interesting in an environment with TIE Phantoms out in force.

Boba Fett with Navigator and Veteran Instinct is one of the best counter for Phantoms. You move last and can change your heading and speed. Give him Engine Upgrade for even more repositioning.

He'll also be one of the best counter for a YT-2400 with a HLC turret to close the gap and come into range 1.

I think Boba's time has finally come.

Boba is meh... expensive and not a great ability.

I think Boba Fett's ability - especially with the infamous attached navigator - gets infinitely more interesting in an environment with TIE Phantoms out in force.

Boba Fett with Navigator and Veteran Instinct is one of the best counter for Phantoms. You move last and can change your heading and speed. Give him Engine Upgrade for even more repositioning.

He'll also be one of the best counter for a YT-2400 with a HLC turret to close the gap and come into range 1.

I think Boba's time has finally come.

I used him this weekend. Navigator was much more useful at PS10 and against Defenders as well. In a game where manuevering means something it starts to become much nicer. That and basically just picking a heading to see what is best to avoid colisions was really nice. Much better than the last time I attempted to use the Fettigator(until my PS on both Fett and night Beast dropped to 0. That was the only crit I got all game long...

ahaha... I had a similar experience when I decided to try it. Only crit I got was that he could not use his EPT and Pilot ability.

Yay, a regular PS8 Firespray with Navigator... nice.....

Maybe he's curse...