Never Kturn with a phantom...they have turns and BRs for a reason. Much like interceptors, just don't do it. And Echo Kturns without taking a red...

Other than Echo (who still can't turn 180), Phantoms can't turn more than 90 degrees in a turn without an engine upgrade. If you pull it right they have to pull the Kturn or possibly take some free hits.

Or just get out of the way so that nobody can fire.

Assuming you're at Range 2 (which was the original suggestion), that's anywhere from 3-5 ship lengths. There's not a ship out there that can guarantee a shot at a cloaked Phantom by K-turning. The Phantom decloaks right, turns right, barrel rolls right, and you're pretty much guaranteed to be out of the arc.

Patience is a virtue. Making poor choices rather than being willing to take a turn positioning and accepting no fire at all is a very good way to lose a Phantom. It hits hard, but it's fragile, and in any sort of traded shots scenario where it can't cloak it's going to come out on the short end of it.

Lets not forget the original request asking for tips and strategies playing against Phantoms. As I stated, and thanks for highlighting it, it at the very least buys you a turn without firepower 4 showing up to party. The good thing about an unexpected Kturn is that your opponent doesn't expect it. Most people still try to joust a bit too much IMO and that means they try to make the first pass last more than one round of shooting if possible, so most break out the 1 or 2 forward moves.. So far I've caught two opponents once each with it, granted never again, but its still a valid strategy since the worst that happens is a turn goes by without a shot.

It gets really interesting when you Kturn a turn early with a turreted ship like the Falcon. Every turn the phantom isn't shooting it really hurts.

Never Kturn with a phantom...they have turns and BRs for a reason. Much like interceptors, just don't do it. And Echo Kturns without taking a red...

Other than Echo (who still can't turn 180), Phantoms can't turn more than 90 degrees in a turn without an engine upgrade. If you pull it right they have to pull the Kturn or possibly take some free hits.

Buhalin beat me to it...They only need to turn 180 if they were facing you straight on to begin with. If they were jousting you to begin with they shouldn't ever get the chance to live through the round. They should also forgo a round of shooting if you "fool them" rather than try to chase you down.

And all this assumes no Advanced Sensors shenanigans. 5 bases worth of lateral movement before moving opens up a whole new can of worms.

Just from my experience, its very hard to avoid coming straight on in the first pass. Just kind of happens naturally when people choose their initial targets and try to get rid of them as fast as possible. Most people break out the slow straight maneuvers, focus, and target locks to maximize the firepower. Lateral movement is nice (especially with AS) but w/o PTL it hurts initial firepower and still doesn't help the ship turn 180 degrees. But to each their own since gaming experience can vary wildly.

Lets not forget the original request asking for tips and strategies playing against Phantoms. As I stated, and thanks for highlighting it, it at the very least buys you a turn without firepower 4 showing up to party. The good thing about an unexpected Kturn is that your opponent doesn't expect it. Most people still try to joust a bit too much IMO and that means they try to make the first pass last more than one round of shooting if possible, so most break out the 1 or 2 forward moves.. So far I've caught two opponents once each with it, granted never again, but its still a valid strategy since the worst that happens is a turn goes by without a shot.

It's not the worst that happens. The problem is that the Phantom's decloak move gives it an unprecedented ability to react to what you do. Say I expect you to go to your left, so I assume I'll decloak ahead and back right... but oh no! You K-turned on me! I never saw that coming, and now I'm going to overshoot you and give you a clean shot!!

Except I don't - I now decloak left, and my right bank puts me at a nifty R1 shot with you facing the wrong direction, and stressed.

And as Rakky says, it only gets worse with Advanced Sensors. Take a look at what a Phantom can do if it decloaks one direction, barrel rolls the same direction, and then pulls a 1-turn the opposite direction. It's literally impossible for your K-turn to put guns on it, and all of that - except the turn itself - is done once they see where you're going.

"Do something unexpected, they'll never expect it!" may occasionally be good advice. But there's a reason good players don't expect it - because it's a dumb move. Against most ships, that unexpected bank across an asteroid or crazy move that puts you too close to the edge of the board can get you a good position. Against a Phantom, it just makes them change their plans.

A good Phantom pilot will plan their moves to maximize their ability to respond by choosing different decloak and/or movement actions. An unexpected K-turn against someone smart enough to do that is just going to get you killed.

Lets not forget the original request asking for tips and strategies playing against Phantoms. As I stated, and thanks for highlighting it, it at the very least buys you a turn without firepower 4 showing up to party. The good thing about an unexpected Kturn is that your opponent doesn't expect it. Most people still try to joust a bit too much IMO and that means they try to make the first pass last more than one round of shooting if possible, so most break out the 1 or 2 forward moves.. So far I've caught two opponents once each with it, granted never again, but its still a valid strategy since the worst that happens is a turn goes by without a shot.

It's not the worst that happens. The problem is that the Phantom's decloak move gives it an unprecedented ability to react to what you do. Say I expect you to go to your left, so I assume I'll decloak ahead and back right... but oh no! You K-turned on me! I never saw that coming, and now I'm going to overshoot you and give you a clean shot!!

Except I don't - I now decloak left, and my right bank puts me at a nifty R1 shot with you facing the wrong direction, and stressed.

And as Rakky says, it only gets worse with Advanced Sensors. Take a look at what a Phantom can do if it decloaks one direction, barrel rolls the same direction, and then pulls a 1-turn the opposite direction. It's literally impossible for your K-turn to put guns on it, and all of that - except the turn itself - is done once they see where you're going.

"Do something unexpected, they'll never expect it!" may occasionally be good advice. But there's a reason good players don't expect it - because it's a dumb move. Against most ships, that unexpected bank across an asteroid or crazy move that puts you too close to the edge of the board can get you a good position. Against a Phantom, it just makes them change their plans.

A good Phantom pilot will plan their moves to maximize their ability to respond by choosing different decloak and/or movement actions. An unexpected K-turn against someone smart enough to do that is just going to get you killed.

And if they're that smart and you aren't of course you lose. Yes, a smart Phantom pilot can plan ahead and have multiple options in play most of the time, but you can plan ahead and have multiple options planned for as well. You have between 3 and 8 ships working to get a Phantom into arc and deal with the enemy ship. That's a lot of options in comparison, and catching the Phantom once or twice is enough to kill it. There is more to the field than empty space. Asteroids and other ships can cut a Phantoms options pretty hard. The Phantom changes the way the game is played, but a smart player can do just as much to counter it as the Phantom can.

And I never suggested otherwise - in fact, I've been advocating spread formations and cover fire since we first found out what decloaking does. The "Unexpected K-turn" was being presented as something that could reliably catch and hose a Phantom, but it just isn't - the Phantom has more options to react to the unexpected than pretty much any ship in the game. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "you can plan ahead and have multiple options planned for as well" - once your dial's down for an X-wing, your final position is set. Even ships with movement actions such as a PtL Interceptor won't have much to do, because with only a few rare exceptions, the Phantom should be moving last. So you can guess all you want, but that still won't give you a chance to react to it.

And if they're that smart and you aren't of course you lose. Yes, a smart Phantom pilot can plan ahead and have multiple options in play most of the time, but you can plan ahead and have multiple options planned for as well. You have between 3 and 8 ships working to get a Phantom into arc and deal with the enemy ship. That's a lot of options in comparison, and catching the Phantom once or twice is enough to kill it. There is more to the field than empty space. Asteroids and other ships can cut a Phantoms options pretty hard. The Phantom changes the way the game is played, but a smart player can do just as much to counter it as the Phantom can.

And I never suggested otherwise - in fact, I've been advocating spread formations and cover fire since we first found out what decloaking does. The "Unexpected K-turn" was being presented as something that could reliably catch and hose a Phantom, but it just isn't - the Phantom has more options to react to the unexpected than pretty much any ship in the game. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "you can plan ahead and have multiple options planned for as well" - once your dial's down for an X-wing, your final position is set. Even ships with movement actions such as a PtL Interceptor won't have much to do, because with only a few rare exceptions, the Phantom should be moving last. So you can guess all you want, but that still won't give you a chance to react to it.

Lets not forget the original request asking for tips and strategies playing against Phantoms. As I stated, and thanks for highlighting it, it at the very least buys you a turn without firepower 4 showing up to party. The good thing about an unexpected Kturn is that your opponent doesn't expect it. Most people still try to joust a bit too much IMO and that means they try to make the first pass last more than one round of shooting if possible, so most break out the 1 or 2 forward moves.. So far I've caught two opponents once each with it, granted never again, but its still a valid strategy since the worst that happens is a turn goes by without a shot.

It's not the worst that happens. The problem is that the Phantom's decloak move gives it an unprecedented ability to react to what you do. Say I expect you to go to your left, so I assume I'll decloak ahead and back right... but oh no! You K-turned on me! I never saw that coming, and now I'm going to overshoot you and give you a clean shot!!

Except I don't - I now decloak left, and my right bank puts me at a nifty R1 shot with you facing the wrong direction, and stressed.

And as Rakky says, it only gets worse with Advanced Sensors. Take a look at what a Phantom can do if it decloaks one direction, barrel rolls the same direction, and then pulls a 1-turn the opposite direction. It's literally impossible for your K-turn to put guns on it, and all of that - except the turn itself - is done once they see where you're going.

"Do something unexpected, they'll never expect it!" may occasionally be good advice. But there's a reason good players don't expect it - because it's a dumb move. Against most ships, that unexpected bank across an asteroid or crazy move that puts you too close to the edge of the board can get you a good position. Against a Phantom, it just makes them change their plans.

A good Phantom pilot will plan their moves to maximize their ability to respond by choosing different decloak and/or movement actions. An unexpected K-turn against someone smart enough to do that is just going to get you killed.

You caught me. I didn't include every possible maneuver and every possibility. You found a way around it. Therefore this can never work.

Geez guys. The original post asked for strategies and tactics that can help overcome the Phantom. Instead of just providing list advice I provided him a maneuver that could (and has) worked for me. If they are coming straight at you as a lot of people are want to do, pulling an unexpected Kturn puts the Phantom pilot in a very awkward position, especially if they pulled a straight move. The problem is we are talking about abstract movement and this is quickly devolving into "well if you do..., then I'll do..." type of argument that can be incredibly unproductive.

Here's the deal. You don't think it will work on a good Phantom player. I'm telling you it did work on two good Phantom pilots once each. It can work, HAS worked, and at the very least its helpful advice since its an even better move against non Phantom pilots. It specially deadly maneuver if you use the Falcon since time is against the Phantom in that scenario.

Please guys, let be civil. While I don't have a problem with critiquing strategies a lot of the posts read as needlessly dismissive. However, if I was reading that incorrectly I apologize.

The problem is we are talking about abstract movement and this is quickly devolving into "well if you do..., then I'll do..." type of argument that can be incredibly unproductive.

...

Please guys, let be civil. While I don't have a problem with critiquing strategies a lot of the posts read as needlessly dismissive. However, if I was reading that incorrectly I apologize.

Being dismissive of bad ideas that might have worked once when your opponent made a very bad decision is not uncivil.

I generally agree that degenerating to the "Then I'd just..." discussions is a bad idea. But you've done nothing to present any way that this could actually deal with a Phantom. Positionally, a K-turn ends up at exactly the same location as a straight. If a Phantom pilot isn't prepared for a straight, they're not a very good Phantom pilot. If they're K-turning (which is what sounds like happened in your game) they're REALLY not a good Phantom pilot. The ONLY time this will work is if the Phantom is planning to blow past you and give up its shot for the turn. But any such plan must account for a potential K-turn, so there's really nothing that should be unexpected about it.

I think it's a horrible piece of advice that is going to do nothing to help people adapt to a new challenge. I'm sorry you find that "needlessly" dismissive - I see a need to dismiss it, because it's actively bad advice. The fact that it worked for you in two games against Phantom pilots you think are good doesn't change that.

Seriously - who doesn't account for a potential K-turn in just about any situation, no matter what ship they're flying?

The problem is we are talking about abstract movement and this is quickly devolving into "well if you do..., then I'll do..." type of argument that can be incredibly unproductive.

...

Please guys, let be civil. While I don't have a problem with critiquing strategies a lot of the posts read as needlessly dismissive. However, if I was reading that incorrectly I apologize.

Being dismissive of bad ideas that might have worked once when your opponent made a very bad decision is not uncivil.

I generally agree that degenerating to the "Then I'd just..." discussions is a bad idea. But you've done nothing to present any way that this could actually deal with a Phantom. Positionally, a K-turn ends up at exactly the same location as a straight. If a Phantom pilot isn't prepared for a straight, they're not a very good Phantom pilot. If they're K-turning (which is what sounds like happened in your game) they're REALLY not a good Phantom pilot. The ONLY time this will work is if the Phantom is planning to blow past you and give up its shot for the turn. But any such plan must account for a potential K-turn, so there's really nothing that should be unexpected about it.

I think it's a horrible piece of advice that is going to do nothing to help people adapt to a new challenge. I'm sorry you find that "needlessly" dismissive - I see a need to dismiss it, because it's actively bad advice. The fact that it worked for you in two games against Phantom pilots you think are good doesn't change that.

Seriously - who doesn't account for a potential K-turn in just about any situation, no matter what ship they're flying?

I don't know if you're aware of it but I think it would seem pretty hard to read your post without a dismissive tone,let a lone a bit a scorn. Its also no fair in any sense to assume that just because a tactic you don't like or think works, worked on my opponents that they aren't good. They didn't Kturn, but were caught of guard by the Kturn. They are good players with very good records and tournament wins to back it up. Technically the only one who pulled the oddball move was I.

I have provided a strategy that can help counter a Phantom. You just don't like it. The problem with any form of movement discussion is that there is no absolute. I recognize it and I'm not going to fight it. Because of this I just provided a very general idea how to pull it off which involved forcing the initial confrontation at around range 2 while flying directly at each other, then feinting your opponent with a long kturn. It's a gamble but all the moves are. You can be coming straight on and choose to move to your right and your opponent moves to your left. That doesn't make you dumb, it just means you chose incorrectly. For me, I played on the fact that most people assume you will use a Kturn sparingly to avoid stress and action loss, especially when you could go for an actionless, stressless shot . Its just a matter of keeping the idea in your back pocket.

Another bit of advice for playing against phantoms for the OP since I don't like sidetracking this much.

If you can, it can be tough, force the Phantom to engage you in the corner/edge of the board. While the 2 template provides a lot movement shenanigans when they decloak it also means that available moves get really tight since they have to boost or barrel roll that 2. You can force some not optimum moves this way.

You can also recreate the corner effect by using large base blockers like the ORS (with IA and Navigator) and asteroids. You just have to be reasonable in your expectations. Actually blocking a Phantom is rare, but maybe forcing them to roll left instead of right is possible.

I don't know if you're aware of it but I think it would seem pretty hard to read your post without a dismissive tone,let a lone a bit a scorn. Its also no fair in any sense to assume that just because a tactic you don't like or think works, worked on my opponents that they aren't good.

Given that I stated rather explicitly that I was dismissive of the idea, I'm not sure why you're working so hard to read it without a dismissive tone. Please, put the dismissive tone in. It is quite intended. You seem to think I'll be somehow shamed by my willingness to be dismissive of a dumb idea so that you won't have to actually do anything to defend it. Sorry (but not really) to disappoint.

I don't care what you're flying, if you're sitting at Range 2 on the merge, you have to account for the potential of a K-turn. I honestly don't know what you mean by people not expecting it - "Fly straight at your opponent and then K-turn" is one of the most common tactics in the game. The question is when they'll do it, and how you'll react to it.

If you're a player who's caught off guard by a K-turn on the merge, then sorry, but you're not playing well. I won't extend that all the way to saying you're a bad player, because everyone has off days, but you're certainly not playing well.

That's generally. Against a Phantom, that has so much capability in both reactive and lateral movement, it's basically suicide unless your opponent really, REALLY screwed up and you got lucky.

Let's actually consider this for a minute. If you're at Range 2, you're a minimum of 2.51 bases apart, and a maximum of 5 bases apart. If I've got a Phantom, the MINIMUM closure for two small base ships is... 5 bases. If you're on a direct merge at Range 2, you WILL collide if you go straight, or overshoot. So, straights are out - that means you're going left, right, or K-turning. Most ships have K-turns at 3, 4, or 5 speed. Depending on the actual range, a minimum of 2 of those will be closed off due to overlaps, since you'll (probably) be moving first.

None of that is "I said you said" tactics - it's simple analysis of the starting situation you provided. Given that, there's absolutely nothing unexpected or unpredictable about a K-turn in those situations. The question is whether you'll be able to fit it based on the actual range (or some lateral offset) and whether you try it if it's iffy.

So now let's look to potential. You made your K-turn. Oh noes, I never saw THAT coming!! What do I do?!?

I basically have a few options, depending on the actual positions... If you managed to end up behind me when I called a turn or bank, I can combine a lateral decloak to clear your arc. If you got behind me, you're not far behind me, which means your arc is pretty tight - decloak laterally in the direction of the turn, complete the turn, then barrel roll back towards you - bam, no arc. If it's a very tight (1 turn) I can decloak in the opposite direction, pulling the Phantom's version of the B's snap, leaving me out of your arc with my guns on target. If you ended up in front of me hoping for the overshoot, then it's even easier to stay out of your arc unless I did something like pull a fast ahead, for some strange reason, or worse, I lost my mind and called a K-turn.

Again, none of this is "If you do this then I'll do then I'll do that". It's a decision matrix based on where you land, which direction your guns are pointing, and what my planned move is - all of which is known information by the time I make my move. The only question is based on the situations you can create, and the dial I had chosen, are there things I can't escape? There will be SOME, of course, but I honestly don't know that there are many that don't rely on an idiotic dial choice like a fast ahead or K-turn.

So yes, I'm dismissive of the idea. Sorry you don't like that (but not really). You have a tactic you think will work, I think it's a dumb way to try and deal with a Phantom (or any ship, for that matter). We've both expressed that. Observers can try it if they will, and see how it works for them. But it's not a "I got you no you didn't" tactics discussion, because it's all about what the Phantom can do in a known game state. And if you've got to spend multiple posts complaining about my dismissive tone rather than supporting why it can work - which you've yet to do beyond "They won't see it coming, hurr!" - then I'll stick to analyzing game states and being dismissive.

Flechette Torpedoes cause stress even when they miss (and you can't cloak or recloak when you are stressed).

Also, anything that shoots before it can shoot and use Advanced Cloaking Device (i.e., high PS as others have mentioned... Especially Wedge or Han).

I also like Blount with Ion Pulse Missiles (causes 1 damage and ions even when he misses... so at least you'll know where it will be next turn). If you can hit him once with IPM and once with FT and he won't be able to take an action for a couple of turns.

I don't know if you're aware of it but I think it would seem pretty hard to read your post without a dismissive tone,let a lone a bit a scorn. Its also no fair in any sense to assume that just because a tactic you don't like or think works, worked on my opponents that they aren't good.

Given that I stated rather explicitly that I was dismissive of the idea, I'm not sure why you're working so hard to read it without a dismissive tone. Please, put the dismissive tone in. It is quite intended. You seem to think I'll be somehow shamed by my willingness to be dismissive of a dumb idea so that you won't have to actually do anything to defend it. Sorry (but not really) to disappoint.

I don't care what you're flying, if you're sitting at Range 2 on the merge, you have to account for the potential of a K-turn. I honestly don't know what you mean by people not expecting it - "Fly straight at your opponent and then K-turn" is one of the most common tactics in the game. The question is when they'll do it, and how you'll react to it.

If you're a player who's caught off guard by a K-turn on the merge, then sorry, but you're not playing well. I won't extend that all the way to saying you're a bad player, because everyone has off days, but you're certainly not playing well.

That's generally. Against a Phantom, that has so much capability in both reactive and lateral movement, it's basically suicide unless your opponent really, REALLY screwed up and you got lucky.

Let's actually consider this for a minute. If you're at Range 2, you're a minimum of 2.51 bases apart, and a maximum of 5 bases apart. If I've got a Phantom, the MINIMUM closure for two small base ships is... 5 bases. If you're on a direct merge at Range 2, you WILL collide if you go straight, or overshoot. So, straights are out - that means you're going left, right, or K-turning. Most ships have K-turns at 3, 4, or 5 speed. Depending on the actual range, a minimum of 2 of those will be closed off due to overlaps, since you'll (probably) be moving first.

None of that is "I said you said" tactics - it's simple analysis of the starting situation you provided. Given that, there's absolutely nothing unexpected or unpredictable about a K-turn in those situations. The question is whether you'll be able to fit it based on the actual range (or some lateral offset) and whether you try it if it's iffy.

So now let's look to potential. You made your K-turn. Oh noes, I never saw THAT coming!! What do I do?!?

I basically have a few options, depending on the actual positions... If you managed to end up behind me when I called a turn or bank, I can combine a lateral decloak to clear your arc. If you got behind me, you're not far behind me, which means your arc is pretty tight - decloak laterally in the direction of the turn, complete the turn, then barrel roll back towards you - bam, no arc. If it's a very tight (1 turn) I can decloak in the opposite direction, pulling the Phantom's version of the B's snap, leaving me out of your arc with my guns on target. If you ended up in front of me hoping for the overshoot, then it's even easier to stay out of your arc unless I did something like pull a fast ahead, for some strange reason, or worse, I lost my mind and called a K-turn.

Again, none of this is "If you do this then I'll do then I'll do that". It's a decision matrix based on where you land, which direction your guns are pointing, and what my planned move is - all of which is known information by the time I make my move. The only question is based on the situations you can create, and the dial I had chosen, are there things I can't escape? There will be SOME, of course, but I honestly don't know that there are many that don't rely on an idiotic dial choice like a fast ahead or K-turn.

So yes, I'm dismissive of the idea. Sorry you don't like that (but not really). You have a tactic you think will work, I think it's a dumb way to try and deal with a Phantom (or any ship, for that matter). We've both expressed that. Observers can try it if they will, and see how it works for them. But it's not a "I got you no you didn't" tactics discussion, because it's all about what the Phantom can do in a known game state. And if you've got to spend multiple posts complaining about my dismissive tone rather than supporting why it can work - which you've yet to do beyond "They won't see it coming, hurr!" - then I'll stick to analyzing game states and being dismissive.

Flechette Torpedoes cause stress even when they miss (and you can't cloak or recloak when you are stressed).

They'll have to go off before the Phantom can attack though. Otherwise, it goes like this:

1. Phantom fires, cloaks

2. Phantom gets stress

3. Phantom decloaks

4. Phantom executes a green, clears stress

Unless you can get the stress on it before it fires, the stress does exactly what it does to any other ship - forces it into a green maneuver. That may help, but it's not actually going to do anything to inhibit the flicker.

The most reliable method to kill a Phantom without hamstringing your list is to take Han with Veteran Instincts. He can absorb a round or two of fire and will kill it in 2-3 rounds without a hassle.

Flechette Torpedoes cause stress even when they miss (and you can't cloak or recloak when you are stressed).

They'll have to go off before the Phantom can attack though. Otherwise, it goes like this:

1. Phantom fires, cloaks

2. Phantom gets stress

3. Phantom decloaks

4. Phantom executes a green, clears stress

Unless you can get the stress on it before it fires, the stress does exactly what it does to any other ship - forces it into a green maneuver. That may help, but it's not actually going to do anything to inhibit the flicker.

Also, anything that shoots before it can shoot and use Advanced Cloaking Device (i.e., high PS as others have mentioned... Especially Wedge or Han).

Just for completeness sake, these are the current pilots that equal or top Whisper + VI:

Natural skill 9:

Wedge Antilles

Han Solo

Darth Vader

Soontir Fel

Topping Whisper + VI (natural skill 8 + VI):

Tycho Celchu

Ten Numb

Corran Horn

Jan Ors

Wes Janson

Luke Skywalker

Horton Salm (requires R2-D6 to enable EPT)

Airen Cracken

Boba Fett

Rexler Brath

Howlrunner

Carnor Jax

Equaling Whisper + VI (natural skill 7 + VI):

Jek Porkins

Lando Calrissian

Kath Scarlett

Maarek Stele

Major Rhymer

Mauler Mithel

Tetran Cowell

Turr Phennir

24 pilots in total, up to and including wave 4. Wave 5 and Rebel Aces will expand the list somewhat.

Also, anything that shoots before it can shoot and use Advanced Cloaking Device (i.e., high PS as others have mentioned... Especially Wedge or Han).

Just for completeness sake, these are the current pilots that equal or top Whisper + VI:

Natural skill 9:

Wedge Antilles

Han Solo

Darth Vader

Soontir Fel

Topping Whisper + VI (natural skill 8 + VI):

Tycho Celchu

Ten Numb

Corran Horn

Jan Ors

Wes Janson

Luke Skywalker

Horton Salm (requires R2-D6 to enable EPT)

Airen Cracken

Boba Fett

Rexler Brath

Howlrunner

Carnor Jax

Equaling Whisper + VI (natural skill 7 + VI):

Jek Porkins

Lando Calrissian

Kath Scarlett

Maarek Stele

Major Rhymer

Mauler Mithel

Tetran Cowell

Turr Phennir

24 pilots in total, up to and including wave 4. Wave 5 and Rebel Aces will expand the list somewhat.

Lastly anything working with Roark Garnet. I cannot stress how much he does to kill Phantoms.

Crap, forgot to mention him.

Also, Decoy. Put it on a lower PS ship with one of the 24 mentioned above at max range 2 and whoever has a shot gets the high PS.

(Decoy also works the other way around, give a Sigma an ACD so you have a 30'ish point Phantom, pair it with Decoy Vader, have the Sigma shoot first).

Xwing+stressbot 5000+ flechette+ Roark. There ya go. Just stomped a whisper list with this. Add some ions for fun. If they go for Roark first you're gonna get your stressor off. If they go for the Xwing first, you're still shooting at PS before the recloak.

There are hard counters to the phantom. If you expect it, bring some.

As to "if you do this, I'd do that"...that is what a well flown phantom and interceptor do: see your choices and make the choice that counters it. Unless you win PS, they know what to do against any of your tactics. It can usually run away, and often should.

Easy counter-Phantom list right here:

42 Chewie

5 Gunner

2 EH

25 Hobbie

2 R3

19 Roark

5 ICT

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Apparently, if you don't run one or more of these ships it'll be impossible to get one of the named Phantoms in your arc. So, why not run all three?

FYI, I'm being sarcastic. Why some people are so insistent that you can't outfly a Phantom is beyond me.

Edit: Double Post.

hey everyone,

We were playing some practice games with a friend of mine who won the phantom this past week.

I found some interesting idea's and tried them out.

Not deploying in a tight formation on one side with my rebels. I actually broke it into two flights, the first going down the side as normal the second in the middle, but then angling towards my first flight, protecting my rear of the first flight. This meant that if the phantom decloaked and went behind me I could shot it with my second flight.

Basically, from my 3 games, it appears you have to deal with the phantom and make sure all zones of fire are covered, so you can basically predict, or limit where it goes when it uncloaks.

Has anyone else came up with solid strategies against this thing yet? by the way, Ion cannon's didn't work because of the 4 dice while cloaked. It's just hard to hit that thing.

Thanks

Give Roark an ICT, and like many have said above, fly your heavy hitters in a Thach Weave with Roark bringing up the rear flying straight ahead. Place your fighters a movement template's width apart, as if you were flying any other block formation.

1. Perform a 2-Bank maneuver with each ship in the opposite direction of their column in the formation, one row at a time. Ships on the right perform a 2 bank left, and vice-versa for ships on the left. This spreads your firing arcs quite wide.

2. Perform a 2-Turn maneuver with each ship, again opposite of their current side of the formation. Ships now on the left perform a 2-turn right, and vice versa.

3. Perform additional 2 turns until you have destroyed that pesky Phantom, or are nearing the opposite side.

4. When you need to change direction of the formation, plan to do so 2 turns ahead. Perform 2-banks in the same opposite fashion that you have been to re-align your ships into a block formation. This will allow you to make a hard turn or K-turn with your formation. Then, repeat until you again have to change direction.

I don't know if you're aware of it but I think it would seem pretty hard to read your post without a dismissive tone,let a lone a bit a scorn. Its also no fair in any sense to assume that just because a tactic you don't like or think works, worked on my opponents that they aren't good.

Given that I stated rather explicitly that I was dismissive of the idea, I'm not sure why you're working so hard to read it without a dismissive tone. Please, put the dismissive tone in. It is quite intended. You seem to think I'll be somehow shamed by my willingness to be dismissive of a dumb idea so that you won't have to actually do anything to defend it. Sorry (but not really) to disappoint.

I don't care what you're flying, if you're sitting at Range 2 on the merge, you have to account for the potential of a K-turn. I honestly don't know what you mean by people not expecting it - "Fly straight at your opponent and then K-turn" is one of the most common tactics in the game. The question is when they'll do it, and how you'll react to it.

If you're a player who's caught off guard by a K-turn on the merge, then sorry, but you're not playing well. I won't extend that all the way to saying you're a bad player, because everyone has off days, but you're certainly not playing well.

That's generally. Against a Phantom, that has so much capability in both reactive and lateral movement, it's basically suicide unless your opponent really, REALLY screwed up and you got lucky.

Let's actually consider this for a minute. If you're at Range 2, you're a minimum of 2.51 bases apart, and a maximum of 5 bases apart. If I've got a Phantom, the MINIMUM closure for two small base ships is... 5 bases. If you're on a direct merge at Range 2, you WILL collide if you go straight, or overshoot. So, straights are out - that means you're going left, right, or K-turning. Most ships have K-turns at 3, 4, or 5 speed. Depending on the actual range, a minimum of 2 of those will be closed off due to overlaps, since you'll (probably) be moving first.

None of that is "I said you said" tactics - it's simple analysis of the starting situation you provided. Given that, there's absolutely nothing unexpected or unpredictable about a K-turn in those situations. The question is whether you'll be able to fit it based on the actual range (or some lateral offset) and whether you try it if it's iffy.

So now let's look to potential. You made your K-turn. Oh noes, I never saw THAT coming!! What do I do?!?

I basically have a few options, depending on the actual positions... If you managed to end up behind me when I called a turn or bank, I can combine a lateral decloak to clear your arc. If you got behind me, you're not far behind me, which means your arc is pretty tight - decloak laterally in the direction of the turn, complete the turn, then barrel roll back towards you - bam, no arc. If it's a very tight (1 turn) I can decloak in the opposite direction, pulling the Phantom's version of the B's snap, leaving me out of your arc with my guns on target. If you ended up in front of me hoping for the overshoot, then it's even easier to stay out of your arc unless I did something like pull a fast ahead, for some strange reason, or worse, I lost my mind and called a K-turn.

Again, none of this is "If you do this then I'll do then I'll do that". It's a decision matrix based on where you land, which direction your guns are pointing, and what my planned move is - all of which is known information by the time I make my move. The only question is based on the situations you can create, and the dial I had chosen, are there things I can't escape? There will be SOME, of course, but I honestly don't know that there are many that don't rely on an idiotic dial choice like a fast ahead or K-turn.

So yes, I'm dismissive of the idea. Sorry you don't like that (but not really). You have a tactic you think will work, I think it's a dumb way to try and deal with a Phantom (or any ship, for that matter). We've both expressed that. Observers can try it if they will, and see how it works for them. But it's not a "I got you no you didn't" tactics discussion, because it's all about what the Phantom can do in a known game state. And if you've got to spend multiple posts complaining about my dismissive tone rather than supporting why it can work - which you've yet to do beyond "They won't see it coming, hurr!" - then I'll stick to analyzing game states and being dismissive.

I see now. Thank you for making it so blatantly obvious with your hypothetical robot matrix that every time a Phantom hits the table the sound of a thousand voices crying out can be heard because there is absolutely no reason to even expect, nor even try to maneuver to your benefit since the Phantoms ,and the robot controlling it, has got every choice covered and every eventuality planned for.

Instead of making you bring out a whole analysis based on a simple "you could try an unexpected Kturn" I should of saved you the time and told you to use the phrase "The next time you have a thought...just let it go."

The lights are fading...tell your sister you were right. But please don't burn the body in front of a bunch of teddy bears. We live in a modern civilized society for Pete's sake.

...

I did a quick rule check and the stress card says no decloak with stress, pair this with ion and your set against a phantom.

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I have a bigger question will a list that is made to counter a phantom lost going to be any good against a swarm list or xxbb? I feel like people are going to spend a lot of time trying to answer this question and get stumped by other lists