Aptitudes in Only War basically emphasize your class by applying restrictions to how you spend EXP. Has anyone tried removing them completely? Our group has been doing this for an ancient-Rome style game we've been playing with the Only War system. There are two main effects.

1. You can updgrade whatever you want (obvious)

2. Vastly easier to understand the game system. We've cut book-referencing down by about 1/2 and it's much easier for less system savvy players to build characters.

If your group is mature enough to do so: great.

If they are not they start cherry-picking talents and unless you into "Carnage-GM-Mode" nothing, either in combat or outside of it, will pose a threat to your PCs.

The OW System, with all its flaws, is a "free" pick system though the aptitudes are somewhat a guideline for the Players but also some sort of insurance for the GM. You can predict what your players will invest their XP into and you can be more or less sure that at last any necessary profession for your adventure is covered. (An adept-like PCs is less likely to go combat focus etc.)

Do you feel that it helps all that much? I usually see players cherry-picking the good stuff regardless of XP costs. Their respective builds inform their choices to some degree, but I see a lot of talents and skills that just always get taken.

Well, it makes a huge difference if someone has to pay 1.200 XP for some T3 talent he has no aptitude for, just for the sake of being fearless, or investing 1.000 XP into some skill, like Medicae, for a rather strong +30 Mod to fill the medic role he had chosen.

To this date I had no group that was completely fearless, capable of lightning attacks and night unkillable with their true grit. But without aptitudes they could purchase these three T3 talents TOGETHER for just 1.200 XP.

So yea it makes a big difference unless you are rather generous with your XP awards.

Yup, players being able to always take the 'best' traits regardless of their class is the obvious drawback, and I suspect it could enhance/diminish/not-affect game-play depending on your group and playstyle.

I find that most players take options that fit their class, rather than 'always best' options. I'm not really aware of what these 'always best' options are, maybe because I don't understand the system completely (we've been playing under a year, and prefer common sense instead of looking-it-up when we don't know how to resolve something). Maybe if you go by all the rules-as-written then being fearless is really important.

But yeah, my main issue is that you get a character build in mind and try to do it, but none of the classes really have the right aptitude mix. The hammer of the emperor relieved a lot of issues by letting you switch up your class and aptitudes occasionally, but that's when I thought 'why not discard aptitudes entirely'.

Well, the argument "common sense" in picking talents makes sense - as long as your group is mature. But to be honest: You can find an in-charakter explanation for roughly anything.

Also, if you argue people just pick what suits their charakter you could also argue, why not ditch the entire XP system and pick talents when the role play allows them to "happen".

In its core these are rules that have to function, just like a board game. You are free to adapt them but then you are in great risk of "breaking" something. It can work perfectly fine, depending how strict you play by the rules, but it can also horribly fail.

And yea, fearless might not be that important in your setting (that seems to lack any kind of daemon etc.) but the difference between a barbar of some sort that can attack you once in melee and an entire group of miles legionarii capable of attacking as fast as some machine gun in melee could lead to problems.

Instead of throwing out aptitudes, why don't you ditch specialties? Then your players are free to choose the aptitudes that suit them and how they want to play.

@EriktheGuy

Just wanted to ask what are you using for the XP cost for Skills and Talents?

As Aptitudes were used to count what everythings XP cost was, you had to make some sort of decision for definite XP cost.

Essentially it's a trade-off.

Using Aptitudes "ensures"* diversity among PC, and limits the tendency to go for the "best" combinations.

Sadly, some people claim to find the apititude system difficult to use

Instead of throwing out aptitudes, why don't you ditch specialties? Then your players are free to choose the aptitudes that suit them and how they want to play.

which means this isn't that useful advice for them.

* not actually ensures, merely awards and so makes probable

@EriktheGuy

Just wanted to ask what are you using for the XP cost for Skills and Talents?

As Aptitudes were used to count what everythings XP cost was, you had to make some sort of decision for definite XP cost.

We cost everything as though they had 2 aptitudes.

Because the main issue is simplification. Most of the players at my table couldn't tell you what aptitudes they need to make a sniper or a melee warrior, and unlike dropping aptitudes this actually adds a bit of legwork.

I'd add that, given this system, all you really need to build a character is to know what tier a talent you want is. Everything uses a very simple formula for costs and flows from there, and you can often level without needing a book.

Out of curiosity, how would you go about breaking this, for say, my Ratling sniper. I just see many of the options I don't have the aptitudes for as being a bad match for my role.

Not sure if I got this right, but the Ratling pack is quite good for a sniper, yes. But it still has its flaws. Its main source of protection is staying hidden and dodging stuff. The first one can be lost quite fast if depending on terrain, for example an urban area where there is not much range and the second can be lost by an attack overload, meaning you get attacked more than you can dodge per round. If it was a free pick system though you could also take things like the really good True Grit to shrug off some lethal hits or boost your toughness for just a few XP. Also you could get the rather important fearless really cheap and maybe even got for some mental protection with Resistance Psychic and Strong Mind, just to add some easy Jaded for the regular insanity points.

Because the main issue is simplification. Most of the players at my table couldn't tell you what aptitudes they need to make a sniper or a melee warrior, and unlike dropping aptitudes this actually adds a bit of legwork.

Honestly? Are they absolutely new to PnP? There are systems like DnD or The Dark Eye that are MUCH less accessible than OW is, and where literally your entire character concept can be screwed at character creation. OW is an extremely simple d100 system. Just today I introduced a new player for our group that only played some Midgard before and after a session of 3 hours he completly understood the entire XP and Level Up system. The only thing he was not sure about were the talents though you learn them pretty quick after some sessions and seeing other characters in action. And guessing that ballistic skill and finesse (as these are linked for almost all shooty talents) are important is no puzzle-solving.

Boo hoo.

People playing a pencil and paper RPG will have to read and write every once in a while. Get over it and get on with it.

If your group can`t look at some simple tables that isn`t reason to change the game system, it`s a sign it`s time to make a quick reference sheet.

Also classless aptitude systems (like the one I wrote for Only Necromunda) are relatively simple but are a bit too prone to producing special snowflakes for a game like OW.

Because the main issue is simplification. Most of the players at my table couldn't tell you what aptitudes they need to make a sniper or a melee warrior, and unlike dropping aptitudes this actually adds a bit of legwork.

I'm sorry if I come across as arrogant*, but I think your main problem is here.

Really. It's. Not. That. Hard.

* Don't get me wrong, I am arrogant. It's just not the point of this post.

Oh dear, I'll have to keep my poor, ignorant players from reading this thread

Imho I believe it would be easier to just give them a soft clap in their hands and make them familiar with the rule system for this is your actual problem. The system is by far not complex in any regard (actual the is only one system less complex that I played and that was called Dungeonslayers where you literally had only 3 stats per character^^).

The simply thing is: If it is to complex for them to understand and play by the given rules, then it is also to complex to make any changes to it without breaking it.

The rule isn't too complex to understand, it's just a pain in the ass to have to look up aptitudes for everything and compare them to your sheet.

Nobody else seems to regard looking between two different pieces of paper as a problem.

Maybe you as a good an helpful GM just need to take out some of legwork for what can only assume are shockingly lazy players. Why not note down their aptitudes and produce a handout with both them and the costing tables onto reduce time spend flicking through the book? (or you know, use a ew different coloured bookmarks.)

Whatever next? "My character sheet has too many numbers on it" maybe "degrees of failure made me depressed" I`m just waiiting for "the book is too heavy, my back hurts."

Actually, yes there are others. Because it's not just two pieces of paper, it's two entirely unrelated places in the book, and your character sheet. It IS bloody annoying to look up the aptitudes all the time. I wouldn't call it complex, but annoying and a waste of time.

Particularly in the horribly-not-optimized PDFs which then take ages to load a page.

Edit: As for complexity, there are loads of games that are less complex, because they have far fewer special rules and exceptions and require less house ruling obviously broken stuff or copy-paste errors...

EditEdit: Of course, there's an easy fix: Copy the cost tables onto their own piece of paper. Then you can hold all three pieces of information next to each other, which should help.

The rule isn't too complex to understand, it's just a pain in the ass to have to look up aptitudes for everything and compare them to your sheet.

EditEdit: Of course, there's an easy fix: Copy the cost tables onto their own piece of paper. Then you can hold all three pieces of information next to each other, which should help.

Now, you take your character sheet, and this cheat sheet, and then you go hunting through the book.

Whenever you find something you'd like, look at these 2 pieces of paper and you'll know right away what it'll cost you.

All right, I'll put this one down under 'not for everyone'.

All right, I'll put this one down under 'not for everyone'.

Good. Laziness is no reason to give players huge discounts on skills and talents.

Seriously, for the sake of a single post-it note bookmark you crippled the balance mechanic for the advancement system, and you coud have at least used higher costs than the one intended for trained specialists characters advancing in their chosen field.

Actually, yes there are others. Because it's not just two pieces of paper, it's two entirely unrelated places in the book, and your character sheet. It IS bloody annoying to look up the aptitudes all the time. I wouldn't call it complex, but annoying and a waste of time.

Particularly in the horribly-not-optimized PDFs which then take ages to load a page.

Edit: As for complexity, there are loads of games that are less complex, because they have far fewer special rules and exceptions and require less house ruling obviously broken stuff or copy-paste errors...

EditEdit: Of course, there's an easy fix: Copy the cost tables onto their own piece of paper. Then you can hold all three pieces of information next to each other, which should help.

The easiest solution no one has mentioned is to copy and paste the tables from the pdf version of the book, format them for print on 3-4 pages including the aptitude cost charts, and stick them in a thin assignment binder for the group. Done and done.

Cheers!

Edits:

1. Don't use Adobe to open pdfs from FFG. Use Sumatra. It doesn't load the whole document, just the page your viewing, so you'll see a tremendous difference in utility there.

2. As far as simple games go, are you referring to Cats the RPG? I love that game. =D

Yes, that is a pretty good solution, and one I might just resort to Without doing something like that, it's a hassle though.

But won't I then still have problems when scrolling? I mean, if it loads each page separately, and each page takes a while...
I'll check it out, though, thanks.

No, I have never heard of that. I was referring to various others. from Tales of the Solar Patrol over Pathfinder to even GURPS (which at it's core has one rule: roll 3d6 under a target.)

Cheers!

Good. Laziness is no reason to give players huge discounts on skills and talents.

****, and we were all having so much fun too. I'll be sure to tell them not to enjoy it as much next time.

I will just pop in here to say that someone made and posted on this forum a java app that lets you check the aptitudes you have, then displays the experience costs for all characteristics, talents, and skills for that particular set of aptitudes. Then all you have to do is know/have open the list of talents and skills to know what they do. It is dead simple, easy to use, and is a fast app.

My fellow players are all RPG noobs and horribly averse to actually reading the book a little bit, so I had to find this stuff to make it easy.