I just picture Dash flying like a drunk putting a fat red beam right through a Phantom cockpit without giving it a second thought."****, you got it!""Huh, got what?"

Which is why I specifically stated in my original post that the Phantom is amazing against anything except ships with a 360* firing arc.

I know man, I'm just trying to lighten the mood... With fat red beams spinning like a crazy inversed "Waiting for Tonight" video!

Honestly, PS 8 isn't certain. Whisper will be at PS 9. Echo, it comes down to who has initiative. And with Tycho in an A-wing, that is a serious dilemma. Do you give the Imperial player init, thus making him move first, thus knowing where the Phantom will be, and be able to reposition yourself for a shot. The downside here is, that Echo will shoot first, thus Cloak. And 2 Atk vs 4 Def is not a spot I would trust the A-wing, since most likely at least one of Tycho's actions will be to reposition. You can switch it around, with Tycho able to fire first, but good luck getting into position to fire against Echo. You almost have to bring some Swarm Tactics (which, imo leads to positioning that favors the Phantom) or Roark (which is a points sink). Veteran Instincts is now worth it's weight in gold in this game.

I do like the new super friends in terms of PS bid. Slap an Engine Upgrade on an X-wing, and you might have the chance to catch a Phantom.

If Tycho with Prototype Pilot, PTL, VI, and Cluster Missiles or Concussion Missile can't smoke Echo/Whisper, I will eat my hat.

well its not brocken in the alpha imdaar event the glasscanon died in the first shooting round cause the one didnt know how to fly that fragile fighter and lost cause of that mistake ;P he flew echo i mean who choses echo if he flies the already hard to fly phantom at frist attempt? well i got placed 4 and got that stupid z95 but thats still better with going home empty handed ^^

Curious to all those that think the Phantom isn't ridiculous (in attack and movement), what lists would you all run if you knew you were going up against Echo and Whisper with VI+ACD on them both.For this thought experiment, you cannot take a ship with 360* firing arc.What do you go with?

Bs with HLC, all day long.

Hmm, that's a tactic that can be countered by spreading arcs though. Every interceptor pilot knows that at some point in the game there's going to be too many arcs pointing in too many directions to dodge all of them and still keep your targets in your sight.

This is very true. When I flew against TIE swarms and they broke apart, it was always a pain. Flying in formation is definitely sure death if you're flying against a Phantom.

However, last night I tried out that guy's Scarlet Cowgirl list.

I would even BR on behind ECHO to minimize it's change of getting around me, but it was no use. I would happen like so (forward firing arcs representing by periods as such):

. .

. .

. .

[K]!

{E}

. .

. .

. .

After decloaking, turning, and BRing, Echo would end up something like this:

. .

. .

. .

[K]! .....{E}

Echo would always get shots, no matter how unpredictable you tried to be with a large ship that could BR.

I assume you had no VI on Kath while Echo had his, then. That seems to be the first mistake when flying against Phantoms. You always want to have the higher PS. The Phantoms ability to choose three different places to be makes predicting its movements all but useless.

Curious to all those that think the Phantom isn't ridiculous (in attack and movement), what lists would you all run if you knew you were going up against Echo and Whisper with VI+ACD on them both.

For this thought experiment, you cannot take a ship with 360* firing arc.

What do you go with?

Hmm, I'd run Wedge/Wes/Luke. All of them with VI so no Phantom got to shoot first. Luke is the easiest prey in this list, so he gets slapped with an R3-A2 to let him stress the Phantom, ensuring that no matter who gets the Phantom in his sight, something bad will happen to it.

I'd then spread the X-wings out to create an as wide as possible R3 rangeband. Luke in the center, Wedge and Wes on the sides. Once the Phantoms get in that range (and you can't dodge range 3 forever), Wedge will reduce the three agility of the Phantom to two, while Wes won't have to worry about focus tokens. Luke would home in on wherever Whisper is and stress him out. They would then focus down Whisper while Wes dances with Echo. Ideally Wes would destroy Echo, but even in a bad case scenario I expect at least some hits on Echo. After dealing with Whisper (attack 3 versus 2 defence dice and 4 THP does not last a long time, much less double that) Wedge and Luke (or just Luke if Whisper managed to kill Wedge) would turn around and double back to kill Echo.

If both Phantoms deploy on the same side, all X-wings will home in on them and fire as soon as they get in range. Targeting priority remains the same: Kill Whisper first if possible, then Echo.

Because of the higher PS the pilots move after the Phantoms and so they don't have to worry about the Phantoms moving out of their arcs after they've moved. A wide spread ensures that they won't get flanked early game after which it comes down to the dice and who is the better planer and predictor.

OMG, you make me want to scream. You DO NOT get to make your list immediately after you match up with someone. C'mon man. I was trying out the list that another forum member recommended. I did not know I'd be using it against a Phantom list.

Oh, wait, so you weren't testing the Phantom's limitations? No wonder the Phantom steamrolled most opposition then. If all lists were build according to the current meta, then a ship designed to mess with the current meta utterly wrecking them doesn't sound as much of a surprise to me.

Then you get matched up against TIE swarm and die because you don't know who or what you'll get matched up against.

Yes, I do believe I pointed out that the Phantom was designed to throw a wrench in the current trend of "one size fits all" lists several times now. Working as intended.

But you asked me what I'd bring if I was facing a Phantom list, and there it is.

Here's the thing though, the Phantoms will be teched against. Now, Keroko's squad doesn't sound ideal, I agree, but don't dismiss something because it seems to be teched against the Phantoms. Veteran Instincts is going to be used a lot more. I'm glad I have three now.

I know it isn't in your limitations, but I would love to see say, Dutch with an Ion Cannon and R4-D6 go against the Phantom. Awww, your 5 Atk dice only did 2 damage. Eat Ion Cannon. Jek with R4-D6 is also an interesting option, if you feel lucky. Hell, Biggs with R4-D6 is going to slow everyone's damage output down.

Also, Vader with Outmaneuver and Engine Upgrade is going to be fun. Combined with Turr and Fel, a very fun positioning game.

Wedge/Wes/Luke list is a solid list that I can see being brought to the table during a tournament. Is all the list made to counter the Phantom? No. Some will struggle. But some will be, and in the end, the Phantom player will be the one struggling during those match-up. So I don't think bringing a Phantom to the table will be an auto-win, it's just one new kind of threat that enter the meta and mess more against some kind of builds.

I don't mind you saying what you'll bring to the table if you were flying against a Phantom. I respectfully considered what you said.However, I'm just saying is it worth it to build a list where you don't know if you'll encounter a Phantom or not?

I don't commit to a list for an event until I'm at the venue, and get an impression what people are going to play.

I don't mind you saying what you'll bring to the table if you were flying against a Phantom. I respectfully considered what you said.However, I'm just saying is it worth it to build a list where you don't know if you'll encounter a Phantom or not?

I don't commit to a list for an event until I'm at the venue, and get an impression what people are going to play.

So you wait until you've seen the lists others are taking out and setting together before picking your own list?

And this thread is done. Good luck getting any discussion now that it will be forced into a what is cheating debate.

And this thread is done. Good luck getting any discussion now that it will be forced into a what is cheating debate.

I'll end my participation in it by saying what I described above would not be considered acceptable in any game, miniature or CCG. You'd get tossed by an diligent TO if you walked around looking at other peoples armies, squadrons, decks, etc before having your own turned in. And that's all.

I don't mind you saying what you'll bring to the table if you were flying against a Phantom. I respectfully considered what you said.However, I'm just saying is it worth it to build a list where you don't know if you'll encounter a Phantom or not?

I don't commit to a list for an event until I'm at the venue, and get an impression what people are going to play.

So you wait until you've seen the lists others are taking out and setting together before picking your own list?

If they have everything pulled out half an hour before match pairings are posted, yes. I don't wait until I'm sitting at the table with someone, that would be blatantly unfair.

I mean, some people obviously have no qualms with other people knowing what they're going to play ahead of time. I would never advertise like that, just like I wouldn't walk around a Magic event with my deck list taped to my forehead.

If they have everything pulled out half an hour before match pairings are posted, yes. I don't wait until I'm sitting at the table with someone, that would be blatantly unfair.

I'm a little shocked at you, tbh. I thought you were a decent player with a lot of knowledge about the game even though we have had our bitter disagreements in this thread.Now I just don't know what to think. It's sad really. Not cool, man.

What, am I supposed to walk around with my eyes closed for 30-60 minutes if I get there early? I don't solicit people for info on what they're playing, but if it's out there and I haven't filled out an event form, I'll make a snap decision that puts me in an advantageous position. If you don't like it, don't be one of those people with all his stuff out. Kind of strikes me as being common sense.

Honestly, it's hardly that different from being familiar with your local meta anyways. If you know people are flying lots of Phantoms locally, bring something to beat them. It's simple.

Hmm, that's a tactic that can be countered by spreading arcs though. Every interceptor pilot knows that at some point in the game there's going to be too many arcs pointing in too many directions to dodge all of them and still keep your targets in your sight.

This is very true. When I flew against TIE swarms and they broke apart, it was always a pain. Flying in formation is definitely sure death if you're flying against a Phantom.

However, last night I tried out that guy's Scarlet Cowgirl list.

I would even BR on behind ECHO to minimize it's change of getting around me, but it was no use. I would happen like so (forward firing arcs representing by periods as such):

. .

. .

. .

[K]!

{E}

. .

. .

. .

After decloaking, turning, and BRing, Echo would end up something like this:

. .

. .

. .

[K]! .....{E}

Echo would always get shots, no matter how unpredictable you tried to be with a large ship that could BR.

I assume you had no VI on Kath while Echo had his, then. That seems to be the first mistake when flying against Phantoms. You always want to have the higher PS. The Phantoms ability to choose three different places to be makes predicting its movements all but useless.

Curious to all those that think the Phantom isn't ridiculous (in attack and movement), what lists would you all run if you knew you were going up against Echo and Whisper with VI+ACD on them both.

For this thought experiment, you cannot take a ship with 360* firing arc.

What do you go with?

Hmm, I'd run Wedge/Wes/Luke. All of them with VI so no Phantom got to shoot first. Luke is the easiest prey in this list, so he gets slapped with an R3-A2 to let him stress the Phantom, ensuring that no matter who gets the Phantom in his sight, something bad will happen to it.

I'd then spread the X-wings out to create an as wide as possible R3 rangeband. Luke in the center, Wedge and Wes on the sides. Once the Phantoms get in that range (and you can't dodge range 3 forever), Wedge will reduce the three agility of the Phantom to two, while Wes won't have to worry about focus tokens. Luke would home in on wherever Whisper is and stress him out. They would then focus down Whisper while Wes dances with Echo. Ideally Wes would destroy Echo, but even in a bad case scenario I expect at least some hits on Echo. After dealing with Whisper (attack 3 versus 2 defence dice and 4 THP does not last a long time, much less double that) Wedge and Luke (or just Luke if Whisper managed to kill Wedge) would turn around and double back to kill Echo.

If both Phantoms deploy on the same side, all X-wings will home in on them and fire as soon as they get in range. Targeting priority remains the same: Kill Whisper first if possible, then Echo.

Because of the higher PS the pilots move after the Phantoms and so they don't have to worry about the Phantoms moving out of their arcs after they've moved. A wide spread ensures that they won't get flanked early game after which it comes down to the dice and who is the better planer and predictor.

Having your three pilots trying to cover all angles will mean maybe one would get a shot. Next your down a pilot.

Plus if it were me, you would also have two ties and kath coming at you.

Don't forget your not just fighting against one ship.

All three of your ships would have to be able to fire at him. Not one or two.

Plus how do you know who you are playing.

I like that specific build, but timing is everything, and I think in this case, it's easier for the rebel player to slip up over an experienced echo pilot

If they have everything pulled out half an hour before match pairings are posted, yes. I don't wait until I'm sitting at the table with someone, that would be blatantly unfair.

I'm a little shocked at you, tbh. I thought you were a decent player with a lot of knowledge about the game even though we have had our bitter disagreements in this thread.Now I just don't know what to think. It's sad really. Not cool, man.

What, am I supposed to walk around with my eyes closed for 30-60 minutes if I get there early? I don't solicit people for info on what they're playing, but if it's out there and I haven't filled out an event form, I'll make a snap decision that puts me in an advantageous position. If you don't like it, don't be one of those people with all his stuff out. Kind of strikes me as being common sense.

Honestly, it's hardly that different from being familiar with your local meta anyways. If you know people are flying lots of Phantoms locally, bring something to beat them. It's simple.

I'll look around and if I see everyone has their stuff out, and it's getting closer to go time, then I'll take my things out.

Even when playing against my buddies I don't tell them until they know what they are playing.

Months ago I think one guy knew what I was playing and basically played a counter list to what I was flying. Wasnt much fun.

Now we don't tell the other until we both decide.

Then it's up to fate

Edit:

If we are practicing for a tournament however we will play out lists, and sometimes the other player will play something like a swarm, or xxbb builds because you know your going to come across them

If they have everything pulled out half an hour before match pairings are posted, yes. I don't wait until I'm sitting at the table with someone, that would be blatantly unfair.

I'm a little shocked at you, tbh. I thought you were a decent player with a lot of knowledge about the game even though we have had our bitter disagreements in this thread.Now I just don't know what to think. It's sad really. Not cool, man.

What, am I supposed to walk around with my eyes closed for 30-60 minutes if I get there early? I don't solicit people for info on what they're playing, but if it's out there and I haven't filled out an event form, I'll make a snap decision that puts me in an advantageous position. If you don't like it, don't be one of those people with all his stuff out. Kind of strikes me as being common sense.

Honestly, it's hardly that different from being familiar with your local meta anyways. If you know people are flying lots of Phantoms locally, bring something to beat them. It's simple.

I don't for that very reason.

I'll look around and if I see everyone has their stuff out, and it's getting closer to go time, then I'll take my things out.

Even when playing against my buddies I don't tell them until they know what they are playing.

Months ago I think one guy knew what I was playing and basically played a counter list to what u add flying. Wasnt much fun.

Now we don't tell the other until we both decide.

Then it's up to fate

And that's what a smart player should do. We're not exactly on the level of professional poker players, but the value of not tipping your hand should be obvious. Keep it in the bag until pairings are posted and the point is moot.

And this thread is done. Good luck getting any discussion now that it will be forced into a what is cheating debate.

I'll end my participation in it by saying what I described above would not be considered acceptable in any game, miniature or CCG. You'd get tossed by an diligent TO if you walked around looking at other peoples armies, squadrons, decks, etc before having your own turned in. And that's all.

Well, it's a good thing for me that you wouldn't be able to prove it, then. You don't exactly need a pair of binoculars to see half a dozen people packing TIE swarms at the next table over.

Well tbh I believe that article that ffg posted with Paul heaver talking about the Meta and scouting at tournaments is kind of the same idea.

He even said something along the lines that he substitute a ship for another if he sees someone flying the same thing as him. As he avoids mirror matches.

So it's not uncommon. It's not cheating, but I can see others would not like it and try to claim it cheating.

This is why I don't tell anyone or show what I'm flying till its near go time. (The guys that travel with me would know since we practice together)

I'll take a look around more for curiosity sake to see what kind of competition lies ahead. Once I feel everyone had shown their cards I'll start gearing up, and then take a walk around,and I'll ask if they mind if I have a look

Well tbh I believe that article that ffg posted with Paul heaver talking about the Meta and scouting at tournaments is kind of the same idea.

He even said something along the lines that he substitute a ship for another if he sees someone flying the same thing as him. As he avoids mirror matches.

So it's not uncommon. It's not cheating, but I can see others would not like it and try to claim it cheating.

This is why I don't tell anyone or show what I'm flying till its near go time. (The guys that travel with me would know since we practice together)

Yeah, there's this silly social stigma on these boards about playing competitively, like actually wanting to win automatically makes you some kind of bad person. I'm not doing anything that anyone else can't, or shouldn't be for that matter.

Well I think it's the whole fly casual which is fine.

I love the game and have tons of fun, and even at tournaments I haven't been as competitive as I can be due to the shear amount of enjoyment I get from playing.

I've played many competitive sports when I was younger so really is not uncommon for teams to scout,check the competition. Learn their plays, players etc.

Just like this. Just some view this differently.

That's why I say if you plan on entering a tournament scene, be prepared. Your going to meet people who play to win.

So long as they do it in all fairness.

If it really bothers people then why enter that scene? I mean play at home, game store have fun.

Competition brings out a different type of player. Especially when there are rewards and a title. I mean regionals champion has a nice sound (really wish regionals were close by and not a 10-12 hour drive. Maybe next year)

This is a wholev other can of worms, but if someone has three lists they consider playing and decide based on what they see before registering, don't bother me, because I hold my cards to my chest

If anyone wants to log into Vassal or join me on Skype, I'm flying against a VI Whisper and Echo right now and I'm flying a 3 Rebel list that might counter them.I'm flying:Wedge VI+R2-D2+SUDutch+Ion+Hull+R2-D6+PredHobbie+R3-A2We'll see what happens.

I think Echo's would be the mvp.

Never know though. He can mess up

Well, you can't say you didn't try.

Really though, it's just a game. Let's have fun.

You know for the most part this is a great community.

I've seen so many help others, but then I've also seen people rip each others heads off over different views.

One thing we all have in common is our passion for this game. I know I'm not alone.

The internet sucks sometimes and at times people just need to cool off.

Let's just all get along.

If anyone wants to log into Vassal or join me on Skype, I'm flying against a VI Whisper and Echo right now and I'm flying a 3 Rebel list that might counter them.I'm flying:Wedge VI+R2-D2+SUDutch+Ion+Hull+R2-D6+PredHobbie+R3-A2We'll see what happens.

Im betting the phantom

> Wedge may be PS11, but without repositional abilities (eg. Engine Upgrade, Expert Handling), it is still relatively easy to catch an Xwing. Also, i doubt R2D2 would be able to repair enough shields to take an extra beating from a 4-5 dice attack

> Dutch would always be target locking, and predator clashes with that, because you cant reroll dices that have already been rerolled