strangely, I cannot agree with this line of thinking anymore. Yes, it did work out fine for the TIEint and Falcon and nearly all other problems with perceived imbalance in the past, but with this new Phantom thingy there simply is a problem with the point balance. For 37 points, Echo + advanced cloaking device + recon spec ALWAYS defeats 3x Academy TIEs, regardless of how many rounds you want to play this matchup. For that matter, you MUST field somethin that is a turret, or is at least PS8 + initiative to combat it, and it really restricts decklist building. At least when it comes to the problems we previously had, all you needed to do was "oh you should change your flying a bit and you'll be able to catch him"

And current meta is pretty much "bring as many ships as you can or you'll be fighting uphill." Which also severely restricts squadron building and in the case of fighters pretty much rules out high PS pilots apart from maybe a single exception.

4 x-wings can cover much of the playing field as long as you don't insist on flying them in tight formation. Any Rebel list can pack at least one or two anti-Phantom weapons on top of that.

Yes, this means you'll have to expand your lists. Yes, this means there's no longer a "one list that can take on everything." That's pretty much the point of ships like the Phantom. To shake up the "take this if you want to have any chance at a tournament" lists.

So my argument is dismissed because I've played with and against the Phantom more than the naysayers who have little to no experience flying the Phantom. I understand my observation of the Phantom is limited to my own experience and not representative of the aggregate. I don't think I have to have a good representation of the aggregate in order to talk about the Phantom.

Talk to the people on here who have played a lot with the Phantom (at least I personally know they have) like sozin or bmf. There is no changing it now, but at least the people who have played with it a lot are in my boat and the people who haven't are not.

Why do you believe you and the people you know are the only people whom have fielded the Phantom?

Why do you dismiss anyone who says they've played with or against the Phantom?

Why do you assume only the best players play on Vassal?

What is you record with Phantom builds and what eles is in said Phantom builds?

What build have you played your Phantom build against?

Have you played in larger events like Regionals, Nationals or Worlds?

How did you do in the larger events?

Where do you see the meta game going after the release of Wave 4?

Should we all just forfeit the match as soon as are opponents sits down with a Phantom?

In fact is it even worth continuing to play X-Wing since the Phantom is soon among us?

It may not be to late, the Phantom is still on a boat. Should we just save the other 3 and sink her with the phantoms to save X-wing?

I don't think I need more than 2-3 games to figure out how the Phantom works, especially considering the fact that it's little more than a super-Interceptor, and we've been playing against those for what, well over a year now?

Here's how your argument sounds:

1) The Phantom is little more than a Super-Interceptor

2) We know how to play against interceptors

3) Therefore we know how to play against Phantoms.

Terrible logic. I'm not talking about Interceptors. An Interceptor and a Phantom are not the same thing.

Again, it's a good ship, but not so good as to take operator skill out of the equation. If you're having issues, my recommendation would be to git gud.

You must have not read my original post, since I specifically stated I'm decimating people with it. That's the whole idea here. When you "git gud", you can decimate people very easily. Games become un-winnable for people not flying a Phantom.

People keep spouting, "Well you can kill it if...x, y, and z." They are totally missing the point. You cannot kill it in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. You can't get arcs on it. Competent players can literally choose to get into your arc or not. Coupled with a BR after decloaking or before with adv. sensors, you cannot get hit unless you want to.

Here's how your argument sounds:

1) The Phantom is pretty much OP, based on my experience.

2) Regarding that experience, I've played a lot of games with it against all of two people, but I won't share the details of those matches.

3) But just because I think it's OP does not mean that I'm inferring that it's a "mistake," even though that's my own choice of words.

4) I'm going to be angry at you for disagreeing with my contradictory, obviously leading question/comments, then pretend like you started a conflict.

Forgive me for not being able to take you seriously, but I digress. The Phantom very much is a super-Interceptor: it does everything the Interceptor does, only better. I am in no way implying that is a bad thing. It has more red dice, (potentially) more green dice, more health, and longer barrel roll / boost distance. The ability to decloak before you maneuver is huge, and I won't take that way from the ship, but the fact remains that an extremely mobile ship is hardly impossible to keep in your arc. My point was never that Interceptors and Phantoms are identical, only that a) if you can outmaneuver one highly mobile ship you can outmaneuver another, and b) a ship that relies on green dice to win is ultimately doomed to failure. Player skill is paramount, and is in no way circumvented by a single ship. I hope that's the last time I have to say that.

Which boat are the phantoms on? LOL Torpedoes away!!!

Again, it's a good ship, but not so good as to take operator skill out of the equation. If you're having issues, my recommendation would be to git gud.

You must have not read my original post, since I specifically stated I'm decimating people with it. That's the whole idea here. When you "git gud", you can decimate people very easily. Games become un-winnable for people not flying a Phantom.

People keep spouting, "Well you can kill it if...x, y, and z." They are totally missing the point. You cannot kill it in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. You can't get arcs on it. Competent players can literally choose to get into your arc or not. Coupled with a BR after decloaking or before with adv. sensors, you cannot get hit unless you want to.

And what squadrons were your opponents flying? What tactics were they using?

You make points that no one here would argue against, so you're basically saying nothing.

You just told me that my logic is terrible, and now you're saying that it's sound enough that nobody would argue with it. So which is it, do you agree with me or not?

Forgive me for not being able to take you seriously, but I digress.

I've never taken you seriously, so at least we understand each other. In fact, most people don't take you seriously on these boards, but I digress...

Thanks for your input. (not really)

The abysmally low degree to which I care about your opinion of me is matched only by the amount of credibility I lend to your arguments. Thanks for your forum contributions, I'm sure we've all learned a lot.

Here's the thing. The Phantom WILL catch people off guard. And while we are still in the learning period, there is going to be some negative feedback. Some of it very strong. And the reaction isn't completely unfounded. If I had been torn apart by a Phantom like the Rebel player was at my Imdaar Alpha event, I'm not entirely sure I would be so optimistic about the Phantom's balance. Without seeing what Ribann has played with and how he flew them against the Phantom, I think it is a bit disengenous to simply disregard him.

This game is luckily not something that you can just read the lists and know how it will turn out. Piloting and, yes, luck are a big factor. Yes, there is the lazy Falcon (and soon to be Decimator) counters. I do think there are formations and strategies that can' be used against the Phantom. The question is, how many people will be willing to learn them vs how many are willing to just go back to the fun of double Falcons.

Without seeing what Ribann has played with and how he flew them against the Phantom, I think it is a bit disengenous to simply disregard him.

I would say just the opposite, considering his inability to be forthcoming with the numerous people who have pressed him for details. His overt preoccupation with lambasting people for disagreeing with his opinion speaks volumes.

You people are so disingenuous, it's really quite comical.

I could sit here for 12 years and give you all the details of how I flew everything exactly and you would pick apart every last detail until we forgot what we were originally talking about.

It seems that I'm supposed to have an exact transcript of what I flew against, what I used against it against, how the match went, how many blank dice were rolled, did you target lock that guy when you were supposed to, did you get out of this person's arc when he did this, who had the larger epeen, who has slept with the most women, how big was each other's bank account at the time the first dials were set, etc.

Uhh, no, I just want to know what kind of squadrons you were facing and how they flew. Like, were you facing XXBB's in the usual tight formations? Because really, depending on what you were facing the entirety of your analysis changed drastically.

What you were flying against is quite critical on this subject.

You people are so disingenuous, it's really quite comical.I could sit here for 12 years and give you all the details of how I flew everything exactly and you would pick apart every last detail until we forgot what we were originally talking about.It seems that I'm supposed to have an exact transcript of what I flew against, what I used against it against, how the match went, how many blank dice were rolled, did you target lock that guy when you were supposed to, did you get out of this person's arc when he did this, who had the larger epeen, who has slept with the most women, how big was each other's bank account at the time the first dials were set, etc.I'm not here to argue against 100 of you. Just answer the original question in the original post and move along. If you want to stick around and cry and rage, feel free. If you need tissues, please consult WonderWAAGH since she is crying the most over this.

Bad troll is bad. Good luck expecting anyone to take you seriously... ever.

Edit: the irony of whining like a giant baby about people expecting you to backup your claims, being unable to cope with the fact that people didn't reply to the leading question in your OP with a yes or no answer, and then telling me I need tissues, is downright mind blowing.

Uhh, no, I just want to know what kind of squadrons you were facing and how they flew. Like, were you facing XXBB's in the usual tight formations? Because really, depending on what you were facing the entirety of your analysis changed drastically.

What you were flying against is quite critical on this subject.

Sure! My list is as follows:

Whisper+VI+AdvSensors+MercCo+AdvCD

Echo+VI+AdvSensors+AdvCD

Dark Curse+SD

I've flown against (I do not remember the specifics, but most were high PS)

XXX (multiple times...sometimes Wes, Wedge, Luke)

XYBB

XXBB

Mini Swarm with Howlrunner and Krassis

Mini Swarm with Whisper

Mini Swarm with Echo

Chewbacca+BB

3x TIE Int

OGP+HLC, Krassis+HLC, Jonus

Rebel swarm consisting of Kracken, Blount, Z-95s with Assault Missles

Han and Wedge

4 Bomber lists with Jonus

I'm sure there is more but I cannot remember any more at the moment.

EDIT: I remember one with Ibitsam w/ PTL and Wedge and someone else. I destroyed them pretty badly.

Hmm, I see. Second important question: That 15% of the times the phantom lost, against which ones were those?

Bad troll is bad. Good luck expecting anyone to take you seriously... ever.

Generally speaking, when you can't let it go and have to have the last word in everything, you're trolling.Let it go man. There are other threads for you to go read.

Generally speaking, when you have to make snide comments about people needing tissues and making inferences about their gender, rather than talking about the issue at hand, you're trolling. The funny thing is, you think you're being clever, but you're really not.

Hmm, I see. Second important question: That 15% of the times the phantom lost, against which ones were those?

I lost to Chewbacca and two B-wings. I came close to losing against a mini swarm and Krassis. However, once Krassis was dead it was no contest. That's all I can remember, honestly.If I'd have known I'd be on trial for asking a question regarding the strength of the Phantom, I guess I'd have taken more notes.

Or just don't make statements you aren't prepared to backup in the first place. Seems pretty simple to me.

It matters what you think the meta is goings towards as there could be builds that don't intend to destroy Phantom builds but do. My only problem with your first point was that you challenged everyone saying you could take on any squads with a single super Wisper. I have played more then a dozen games with and against the Phantom as I test for nationals. I do see the Phantom playing a big roll in the coming meta. I've found it to be fine, not under powered nor over powered.

The Phantom is a very different ship then any of us have seen. I can give a good analogy for what we are seeing. Years ago the NFL started to change to a run oriented quarterback. Leading this charge was Michael Vick. For a few years Michael Vick played so differently from all the other quarterbacks, all the other teams had to learn how to play against this different style quarterback. Michael Vick had a lot of success in his early years as a quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons because of this different play styles. Once teams learned how to play against Michael Vick you saw his numbers as a quarterback drop to below average. This is where the Phantom is currently. There is not enough substantial time playing against a ship to learn how to counter it's maneuverability. Once we've seen the Phantom on the field and most of the good players are going to learn how to counter it's maneuverability and it will fall to an average ship.

Or just don't make statements you aren't prepared to backup in the first place. Seems pretty simple to me.

Dude, just lighten up. Good lord.

Sure, just as soon as you stop acting like a complete troll.

Sure, just as soon as you stop acting like a complete troll.

Now you're just harassing me.

*sigh*

Keep going. I'm sure you're fooling someone out there with this spiel of yours. I'd offer to go back and quote every asinine and contradictory thing you've said in just this one thread, to show you just how bad of a troll you really are, but I think you already know.

If you want to get back to having a serious conversation, I'm all ears. You can start by answering the last question I asked you, which has been conveniently ignored.

Hmm, I see. Second important question: That 15% of the times the phantom lost, against which ones were those?

I lost to Chewbacca and two B-wings. I came close to losing against a mini swarm and Krassis. However, once Krassis was dead it was no contest. That's all I can remember, honestly.

If I'd have known I'd be on trial for asking a question regarding the strength of the Phantom, I guess I'd have taken more notes.

You have to understand, which ships you lost against and even how they flew is very important. It lets us analyze what the Phantom is weak against.

I do find it odd you faced so little XXBB. I'd have expected far more XXBB's given how much they're favored.

You have to understand, which ships you lost against and even how they flew is very important. It lets us analyze what the Phantom is weak against.

I do find it odd you faced so little XXBB. I'd have expected far more XXBB's given how much they're favored.

The Phantom is weak against any ship that can get shots at it. It's ability to get out of arc makes it one of the most powerful standalone ships in the game.

Hmm, that's a tactic that can be countered by spreading arcs though. Every interceptor pilot knows that at some point in the game there's going to be too many arcs pointing in too many directions to dodge all of them and still keep your targets in your sight.

The Phantom is weak against any ship that can get shots at it.

Which can be any ship, if your skill level is appropriately high enough.

BR behind him is the mistake. Echo has no choice but to move off axis if he wants to decloak so facing his current position is the last thing you want. Also, if you Rebel Captive, no cloaking.

Ya. It can really make the build tick. Recon is nice, but now me thinks rebel captive or Mara jade is the way to go.

Rebel Captive yes. Honestly, I think that might be the best option for a Firespray right now.

Mara, I'm not sold as a Phantom counter. It doesn't prevent the Advanced Cloaking Device. Nor does it prevent the Decloak. I don't see it's green's being that much of a hassle if they really, really want that 5 dice attack.

I just picture Dash flying like a drunk putting a fat red beam right through a Phantom cockpit without giving it a second thought.

"****, you got it!"

"Huh, got what?"

Off hand, triple Bounty Hunters. I would love to see a Phantom try to find a safe spot.

Tycho should be able to chew through a Phantom pretty easily. Higher PS + Boost means that if you shift to the side like in the above diagram, he can just boost turn and he'll have you dead to rights. Really, anything with boost and a higher PS should have no issue catching a Phantom with its cloak down.