A hypocrite is as a hypocrite does.

Oh, I can agree with that sentiment. It's like how some people fancy themselves my personal hall monitor, following me from thread to thread and making complete hypocrites out of themselves (is that mud-slinging?) for the opportunity to take me down a peg. It's especially endearing when they feel the need to quote me with out-of-context remarks to make their point. But hey, enough wrongs and one of us will eventually make a right, right?

It's alright, Sekac. I'm not really upset at you. In fact I'm rather flattered, because I see a little of me in you. I'm just wondering what it could have been that made you feel the need to put aside your sense of dignity to call me out, yet again. Are you still pouty because of that time you asked us to explain a card to you, then got all upset and super defensive when you still couldn't wrap your mind around it? I honestly can't think of any other reason I may have given you to add yourself to my coterie of loyal followers.

---

I don't really feel like wasting a whole heck of a lot more time making you feel foolish than I already have, so I'll give you just the briefest of breakdowns on your post:

Just so I can navigate your logic, your issue is starting a thread to defend someone, and not the "several pages" of mud slinging that ensued?

My issue, as I pointed out in that thread from the very beginning, was creating a thread about someone - regardless of their intent. You're quoting me completely out of context, but I suppose nothing so trivial has ever stopped one of my detractors from taking a jab.

I mean you clearly have no problem with mud-slinging--that's about 90% of your posts on these forums.

Hyperbole, and completely untrue. You would have to define "mud-slinging" as any form of negative attention directed towards a poster - regardless of the context or pointedness of the remark - for that to reach a meaningful percentile. I do the occasional name calling, but certainly not in "90%" of my posts.

On a side note, it's interesting how posts like your own seem to perpetuate this "mud-slinging." It is a two way street, after all. If your goal is to police the internet, you're not doing a very good job of it.

And no, please don't send me PMs about how you're being stalked and defamed. There is nothing I, or anyone reading page 23 of this God-awful thread can do about it. If you actually wanted something done, there are people that can help you, but posting your personal business here does nothing other than pile on more ridicule (as your post was clearly intended to do).

Someone doesn't understand what a rhetorical question is. I genuinely have no interest in conversing with you privately, especially concerning the issues I have at present. In fact, I've gone out of my way not to make a big deal about Ribann's behavior since he got swatted by the moderators a few days ago, especially in light of what I've learned about him since then. If you feel that the observation I made in response to Vorpal's post amounts to ridicule, you might want to get your eyes checked. It certainly doesn't read that way to me.

If you want to discuss my penchant for policing your posts, feel free. I calls 'em like I sees 'em. I don't think I've ever seen stance you take on how people should conduct themselves on these boards without directly contradicting it at some point in the future. I just couldn't leave this one alone because your usual K-turn was pulled off in a record-breaking 22 hours! Congrats!

Funny, because from where I'm standing it looks like a whole lot of badgering without any evidence to support it. Unless, as has been mentioned, you consider out-of-context quotes to be evidence, but surely you aren't that foolish. Just callin' it like I see it.

When people disagree with you without properly supporting their PoV it's "care to be more substantive with your posts?" When you disagree with someone else and can't be bothered to support your view it's "lolwut" or something similar. You're the fastest hand around when it comes to accusing someone of being a troll, and then you'll joke that you're not even wearing your "trollhat!"

I ask people to be more substantive when they make one-sentence observations and declare them to be fact. Usually because I understand the OP's intent to be trolling... oh, am I pointing that finger again? I would support my argument with a link to the "Z-95s suck" thread, but that one got deleted by the moderators. For trolling. Perhaps I am fast at making those accusations, but that doesn't make them inaccurate.

As for "lolwut," I can count on one hand the number of times I've used that term. I do occasionally talk about Star Wars, you know. And when I do, there's certainly no small amount of substance to back it up. Strange that you can't be bothered to quote those posts. Might I direct you towards this recent thread? Even nikk, who's had issues with me before, would be hard-pressed to say something negative about my contributions there.

I understand your stance on not creating threads about people...

Do you? Because all you've done is quote me from that thread in order to make a fallacious point about my behavior in this one. If you're going to co-opt my point, you should at least do me the courtesy of representing it properly.

I'm a long time lurker but feel the need to contribute.

@ WonderWAAArgh

The way you and your cronies Vanor DM, Millennium Falsehood et al treated a former poster Emperor Palpatine was an absolute disgrace. None of you showed an ounce of compassion for somebody who had lost his wife and you were one of the worst culprits. Whether he used her to make a point or merely to illustrate it as EP maintained (I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt) you all thought it was perfectly OK to tear the poor guy to pieces because his point of view differed from yours. There's even a thread here talking about gamer's wives, that's odd because you and your little gang were quick enough to tear into EP when he mentioned his. The hypocrisy is staggering. God forbid you ever have to walk a mile in his shoes but it's a bit rich moaning about how you are being treated when you have dished it out to others so readily. EP told you all to take a running jump I believe. He was right because people like you and your clique are ruining this forum and putting people off the game. I have certainly hesitated to make my first posting because it seems unless one is interested in tournaments, the meta and uber builds you are either ignored or laughed at.

I am NOT Emperor Palpatine so don't go down that route, I just say what I see and that is a forum that far from being a pleasant place to post is angry, cliquey and hostile to thinking other than that which is regarded as orthodox. It needs a moderator.

I share the concerns about the Phantom but I would not go so far as to say it breaks the game. My worry is that a player can take any other Imperial ship and even if the rebels have not built specifically to guard against it, they can still win. With the Phantom, if the rebels haven't taken precautions against it, ie turrets or a higher pilot skill, they will probably lose.

Had to bring up the palps didn't you haha. That's a whole nother story in itself, but to summarize again.... Palps would ask a question, didn't like the opposing viewpoints of others, got mad at opposing viewpoints then finally rage quit, the end. He did not need to bring his wife up that was a huge mistake on his part, honestly if your wife just died why would you be on a forum in the first place just my opinion. Not that you don't feel bad for him but still maybe a forum isn't the best place for you when tragedy strikes. Not defending anyone here but still the points remain. Also I find this place to be very friendly, yes there is a mix of a lot of different personalities and some are harsher than others. In the end tho it's their opinion, if you didn't want an opinion about something then why post? You should be ready to hear things you may not like because it's a viewpoint. I dunno I mean yes people could be a little nicer but people could also grow thicker skin too, it's a two way street.

If I recall correctly his wife had not recently passed away, it was quite a while ago. The thread has been deleted so I could be wrong but I am fairly sure he said it was two or three years ago.

Why would he be on an internet forum? A chat about X-Wing? Some company? Somebody to talk to? Who can say? But you don't have to be a councillor to know that life as a widow or widower can not be easy and people here could have chosen to be compassionate but they didn't, they were on his case in a manner that was simply appalling in my view. Like I said I am NOT EP and have no brief to speak for him but it did seem to me that despite trying to explain his viewpoint the guy couldn't say a thing right as far as some people here were concerned and the clique seemed to go out of its way to put a negative connotation on pretty much everything he said. Belittling him because he used a British spelling of math??? Come on! If that isn't an attempt at bullying then I don't know what is. His mistakes were to be drawn into an argument and quitting the forum in that manner, he would have done better to refuse to argue and simply stop posting. That's all in the past of course but perhaps more pertinently Ribann now seems to be getting the same treatment. I see a pattern developing and it does this great game no favors

Anyway I am using what happened with EP to illustrate that not everyone finds this forum a welcoming place and it does feel like there is a clique that seem to think they are the founts of all wisdom. I could have given several other recent examples but that was the one that stood out. A little courtesy and thought for the other person's feelings would not go amiss around here.

A hypocrite is as a hypocrite does.

Oh, I can agree with that sentiment. It's like how some people fancy themselves my personal hall monitor, following me from thread to thread and making complete hypocrites out of themselves (is that mud-slinging?) for the opportunity to take me down a peg. It's especially endearing when they feel the need to quote me with out-of-context remarks to make their point. But hey, enough wrongs and one of us will eventually make a right, right?

It's alright, Sekac. I'm not really upset at you. In fact I'm rather flattered, because I see a little of me in you. I'm just wondering what it could have been that made you feel the need to put aside your sense of dignity to call me out, yet again. Are you still pouty because of that time you asked us to explain a card to you, then got all upset and super defensive when you still couldn't wrap your mind around it? I honestly can't think of any other reason I may have given you to add yourself to my coterie of loyal followers.

---

I don't really feel like wasting a whole heck of a lot more time making you feel foolish than I already have, so I'll give you just the briefest of breakdowns on your post:

Just so I can navigate your logic, your issue is starting a thread to defend someone, and not the "several pages" of mud slinging that ensued?

My issue, as I pointed out in that thread from the very beginning, was creating a thread about someone - regardless of their intent. You're quoting me completely out of context, but I suppose nothing so trivial has ever stopped one of my detractors from taking a jab.

I mean you clearly have no problem with mud-slinging--that's about 90% of your posts on these forums.

Hyperbole, and completely untrue. You would have to define "mud-slinging" as any form of negative attention directed towards a poster - regardless of the context or pointedness of the remark - for that to reach a meaningful percentile. I do the occasional name calling, but certainly not in "90%" of my posts.

On a side note, it's interesting how posts like your own seem to perpetuate this "mud-slinging." It is a two way street, after all. If your goal is to police the internet, you're not doing a very good job of it.

And no, please don't send me PMs about how you're being stalked and defamed. There is nothing I, or anyone reading page 23 of this God-awful thread can do about it. If you actually wanted something done, there are people that can help you, but posting your personal business here does nothing other than pile on more ridicule (as your post was clearly intended to do).

Someone doesn't understand what a rhetorical question is. I genuinely have no interest in conversing with you privately, especially concerning the issues I have at present. In fact, I've gone out of my way not to make a big deal about Ribann's behavior since he got swatted by the moderators a few days ago, especially in light of what I've learned about him since then. If you feel that the observation I made in response to Vorpal's post amounts to ridicule, you might want to get your eyes checked. It certainly doesn't read that way to me.

If you want to discuss my penchant for policing your posts, feel free. I calls 'em like I sees 'em. I don't think I've ever seen stance you take on how people should conduct themselves on these boards without directly contradicting it at some point in the future. I just couldn't leave this one alone because your usual K-turn was pulled off in a record-breaking 22 hours! Congrats!

Funny, because from where I'm standing it looks like a whole lot of badgering without any evidence to support it. Unless, as has been mentioned, you consider out-of-context quotes to be evidence, but surely you aren't that foolish. Just callin' it like I see it.

When people disagree with you without properly supporting their PoV it's "care to be more substantive with your posts?" When you disagree with someone else and can't be bothered to support your view it's "lolwut" or something similar. You're the fastest hand around when it comes to accusing someone of being a troll, and then you'll joke that you're not even wearing your "trollhat!"

I ask people to be more substantive when they make one-sentence observations and declare them to be fact. Usually because I understand the OP's intent to be trolling... oh, am I pointing that finger again? I would support my argument with a link to the "Z-95s suck" thread, but that one got deleted by the moderators. For trolling. Perhaps I am fast at making those accusations, but that doesn't make them inaccurate.

As for "lolwut," I can count on one hand the number of times I've used that term. I do occasionally talk about Star Wars, you know. And when I do, there's certainly no small amount of substance to back it up. Strange that you can't be bothered to quote those posts. Might I direct you towards this recent thread? Even nikk, who's had issues with me before, would be hard-pressed to say something negative about my contributions there.

I understand your stance on not creating threads about people...

Do you? Because all you've done is quote me from that thread in order to make a fallacious point about my behavior in this one. If you're going to co-opt my point, you should at least do me the courtesy of representing it properly.

I'm a long time lurker but feel the need to contribute.

@ WonderWAAArgh

The way you and your cronies Vanor DM, Millennium Falsehood et al treated a former poster Emperor Palpatine was an absolute disgrace. None of you showed an ounce of compassion for somebody who had lost his wife and you were one of the worst culprits. Whether he used her to make a point or merely to illustrate it as EP maintained (I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt) you all thought it was perfectly OK to tear the poor guy to pieces because his point of view differed from yours. There's even a thread here talking about gamer's wives, that's odd because you and your little gang were quick enough to tear into EP when he mentioned his. The hypocrisy is staggering. God forbid you ever have to walk a mile in his shoes but it's a bit rich moaning about how you are being treated when you have dished it out to others so readily. EP told you all to take a running jump I believe. He was right because people like you and your clique are ruining this forum and putting people off the game. I have certainly hesitated to make my first posting because it seems unless one is interested in tournaments, the meta and uber builds you are either ignored or laughed at.

I am NOT Emperor Palpatine so don't go down that route, I just say what I see and that is a forum that far from being a pleasant place to post is angry, cliquey and hostile to thinking other than that which is regarded as orthodox. It needs a moderator.

I share the concerns about the Phantom but I would not go so far as to say it breaks the game. My worry is that a player can take any other Imperial ship and even if the rebels have not built specifically to guard against it, they can still win. With the Phantom, if the rebels haven't taken precautions against it, ie turrets or a higher pilot skill, they will probably lose.

Had to bring up the palps didn't you haha. That's a whole nother story in itself, but to summarize again.... Palps would ask a question, didn't like the opposing viewpoints of others, got mad at opposing viewpoints then finally rage quit, the end. He did not need to bring his wife up that was a huge mistake on his part, honestly if your wife just died why would you be on a forum in the first place just my opinion. Not that you don't feel bad for him but still maybe a forum isn't the best place for you when tragedy strikes. Not defending anyone here but still the points remain. Also I find this place to be very friendly, yes there is a mix of a lot of different personalities and some are harsher than others. In the end tho it's their opinion, if you didn't want an opinion about something then why post? You should be ready to hear things you may not like because it's a viewpoint. I dunno I mean yes people could be a little nicer but people could also grow thicker skin too, it's a two way street.

If I recall correctly his wife had not recently passed away, it was quite a while ago. The thread has been deleted so I could be wrong but I am fairly sure he said it was two or three years ago.

Why would he be on an internet forum? Some company? A chat? Somebody to talk to? Who can say? But you don't have to be a councillor to know that life as a widow or widower can not be easy and people here could have chosen to be compassionate but they didn't, they were on his case in a manner that was simply appalling in my view. Like I said I am NOT EP and have no brief to speak for him but it did seem to me that despite trying to explain his viewpoint the guy couldn't say a thing right as far as some people here were concerned and the clique seemed to go out of its way to put a negative connotation on pretty much everything he said. His mistake was to be drawn into an argument about it and to quit the forum in that manner, he would have done better to refuse to argue and simply stop posting. Ribann now seems to be getting the same treatment.

Anyway I am just using what happened with EP to illustrate that not everyone finds this forum a welcoming place. I could give several recent examples but that was the one that stood out. A little courtesy and thought for the other person's feelings would not go amiss around here.

Well some just arnt cut out for the forum life I guess. It's an open forum, people express how they feel about xwing. Just like music or any other form of expression it's not always appreciated by everyone and some is harsher than others. Just the way it is....

Well that's the internet isn't it. Would those people have said those things to EP's face? I doubt it.

Anyway he has gone now but with respect I don't agree with the "just the way it is" sentiment. People who live in glasshouses should not throw stones. In other words if people are going to say nasty things it's to be expected that they are going to get flak in return. Surely it is better not to be unpleasant in the first place then none of it would happen. I'm not saying google stalking is right but if WW is going to dish it out, and he has many times, it's a bit much to ***** about it when people take exception. Live by the sword...die by the sword.

What's your view on the Phantom BTW Jaden? I think it's a plus for us Imperials, especially as the rebels get turrets, droids and abilities that synch but I am concerned about game balance.

It is a very nasty ship when used right, especially echo. At my LGS they love phantoms there and had the misfortune of flying against another echo with VI while mine did not haha. As far as game balance goes you just have to work around having a turret on at least one ship. Doesn't neccasarily mean a yt but even a ywing or hwk work in support of 2-3 other ships. You def need high pilot skill on the turreted ship tho. For those that say you can fly non turreted ships against echo i say maybe against a novice player but against someone who knows what they are doing it's tough. Overall I think things will even out soon tho with the new waves.

Oh dear...

ACD is the only thing that ruined the phantom, making it too overpowered.

everything else is nice. 4 atk dice / 4 agi dice supposedly makes up for it cloaking / decloaking for entire turns, but with ACD it can get both in single turns, and it becomes very very broken, nevermind the increased mobility from decloaking

I've found the length 2 barrel roll or boost to be the issue. If I play as rebels I can fly perfectly well with a pilot who has a fairly good pilot skill thus getting the Phantom in my sights but then with his high pilot skill combined with Veteran Instincts he moves last and simply chooses to barrel roll or boost and the move is so long it ends up out of arc whereas any other TIE would still have been in arc.

When you combine that with the ability to shoot then cloak for free with ACD and roll 4 evade dice possibly plus an evade token even when the rebels do get him in their sights then yes, to be frank it does look either a little over powered or slightly under costed. It's not invincible, it can roll blanks on green dice as much as any other ship and it doesn't have much hull but it concerns me that it shows the first signs of "power creep" in the game. Had I designed it I simply wouldn't have put the ACD in there. To fly around with 4 evade dice plus an evade token, choose the moment to decloak, perform a boost or barrel roll to take yourself out of an enemy arc and then shoot with 4 attack dice is enough in my opinion.

Without Advanced Cloaking Device, high-PS Phantoms are very nearly unusable, and cloak ends up being used once or twice per game. Try it and see.

When I hear people say Phantoms are broken, what I hear is "I can't adapt". They are indeed very powerful, and they do push people into higher PS, into making sure their own ships can reposition, and into making sure they bring some control elements. Your old lists may work--I don't know what you're running--but your old tactics likely won't. Lots of oeople don't like that feeling, but it's not evidence of power creep, and it didn't break the game.

Without Advanced Cloaking Device, high-PS Phantoms are very nearly unusable, and cloak ends up being used once or twice per game. Try it and see.

When I hear people say Phantoms are broken, what I hear is "I can't adapt". They are indeed very powerful, and they do push people into higher PS, into making sure their own ships can reposition, and into making sure they bring some control elements. Your old lists may work--I don't know what you're running--but your old tactics likely won't. Lots of oeople don't like that feeling, but it's not evidence of power creep, and it didn't break the game.

this^^

In my experience the deadliest phantoms are actually the sigmas, just because you can fly them alot more danger close and actually have a very strong supporting cast. Its hard to hard target the one phantom with 70 points of support, and 2 sigmas is just rude compared to echo or whisper.

imo, the biggest thing when against phantoms is asteroid placement. Kep it spread out with no lanes like you would with a swarm and decloak becomes a problem. If there's only one direction to decloak you know roughly what the maneuver is

I agree, to say they "break the game" overstates it and I do like the switch of emphasis from generics to higher pilot skills and pilot abilities. I play Imperials most of the time and it's great to have more options to take on the rebels' seemingly limitless combos, it certainly seemed for a while that the game was slightly biased to the rebels. My concern is that the Phantom pushes the pendulum slightly too much the other way.