[Edited]

I changed my mind and deleted because off-topic.

Not throw it out the window. Find the balance between what was, and what is. But yes, agreed.

Shipwise, precisely. The old line of more ships beats skilled ships no longer holds fully true though.

Predator will go a long way to making this a final sentence on low PS lists, I think.

I don't see Tie Swarms suddenly not existing.

I don't see Bloody Daggers being non-existant. XXBB is still good. Hell I think Cannon Blues will see more play due to Phantom killing potential.

Not throw it out the window. Find the balance between what was, and what is. But yes, agreed.

Shipwise, precisely. The old line of more ships beats skilled ships no longer holds fully true though.

It really depends. A Phantom can take out a lot of unskilled ships, or at least facilitate their doom, but I think we're going to find that counterbuilding every list for Phantoms leaves you vulnerable. Sometimes you're going to want to run that rebel swarm, and you're going to have to fly right to catch the Phantom. Among other things the only pilot Skills that have actually gotten much of a bump are PS8 and 9 given the fact Echo and Whisper will almost always run Vet Insincts.

Predator is not going to play that huge a part in the meta. It might change a few lists, but even then, one additional reroll isn't huge.

I don't see Tie Swarms suddenly not existing.

I don't see Bloody Daggers being non-existant. XXBB is still good. Hell I think Cannon Blues will see more play due to Phantom killing potential.

You may be right - I think TIE Swarms are everlasting, but Predator will make a flanking high PS ship a real PITA for swarms.

I LOVE XXBB for my rebel lists, and will probably still run it, as I really dislike the Falcon for several reasons, mainly I just don't *enjoy* flying it, not because of any weakness or otherwise.

Adding cannons to the B's may be a phantom-counter option, I might playtest that this evening and see how it works out. I guess taking it REALLY slow and sticking to one side of the board will at least make the phantom player a little more transparent maneuver wise, initially.

I suppose I will have to devise new flying tactics to deal with the Phantoms if they make a major appearance like I imagine they will, but I tend to fly Imperials in competition anyways.

Switched roles on my last fight. I took the 2b2x list and my opponent the echo list. Echo is mean. I know what he can do and it was tough keeping more than one gun on him. I took him down to 1 hull but couldn't finish. The RGP+PTL is a star when paired with Echo. So many holes to exploit and there is a way bigger threat in Echo and 3 AP's. Rough list.

Roark is going to be big. APT's and homing are also going to be big.

Echo is going to be a lot tougher than most people give him credit for. I'll try whisper some more next.

Good job self policing!

[Edited]

I changed my mind and deleted because off-topic.

it is not as fragile as people are claiming it to be.

With 2 shields 2 Hull and 2 defense unless cloaked... Yeah it is that fragile, I mean it will go down as quickly as a Z-95 does, because it has the same stats.

That doesn't mean it's easy to kill, because it does have cloaking, which changes things. But hard to kill and fragile aren't mutually exclusive things.

That said, I think the idea of 4 dice isn't the problem, it's ACD that makes Phantoms so powerful.

The list I ran last night, (with proxies, obviously, because I don't have an E-Wing yet) was this, and it worked better than the high PS X-wing list.

Roark / Ion / Recon

E'Tahn / R7-T1 / FCS / Wingman

Wedge / R3-A2 / Predator

Roark gets some extra focuses to help his agility, E'Tahn is the main attacker for a flanker, if present, and Wedge does his usual, trying his best to keep up with E'Tahn to use the stress droid and get the benefit of Wingman.

I had engine upgrade on E'Tahn in a previous list, but I found the droid to be SOMEWHAT more effective for this reason, and this reason alone:

Most of the time, when hitting a flanker, I was willing to forego a focus to get a range 1 shot, and if you present E'Tahn as a target with that droid, he is an attractive target, which (in limited play experience) left Wedge open to do some damage, with crit assist and lowered agility, which seems to hit phantoms hard. (probably everyone else too, but my local play group is working on phantoms, atm)

And, of course, the Target Lock doesn't hurt his rolls either.

I was playing with a similar list using E'Tahn and Corran. So far, the double E-Wing list is the most success I've had against Phantoms. The only problem is that dealing with everyone else after being horribly mangled positionally from the Phantom fight is problematic. And unless Corran kills the flanker, you can expect some broadside attacks from the rest of their list.

Whoever mentioned ACD as the primary culprit, I believe, is correct. 4/5 dice is killer, no doubt, but still manageable. It's the green dice and movement that hurts.

I played a variant of Bloody Daggers with Biggs, 2 Blues with Adv. Sensors and a Gold squadron with Ion cannon and R2-A3 and won an Imdaar Alpha with it. And yesterday i beat a phantom list twice with it. My opponent flew once Echo with Miniswarm and once Whisper. We wanted to know if this "the old meta is dead" is true.

So i tailored nothing towards the phantom, just had the Y-wing that's naturally good with turret and the droid against the Phantom.

Unlike usually i kept the Y-wing closer to my formation this time. The first time with Echo he got scared when i slowrolled and flew the Y to the side the Phantom was flanking. When i saw an opportunity i zoomed forward and even took stress on my B's as i went 4. But this paid off as i murdered Howl with my first shot with Biggs. I took another Tie down with the B's (thx sensors). I lost shields on Biggs and nothing else. He took a shot at my Y with the phantom and scored 2 damage. But now he had the choice to press the attack or watch me wipe the floor with the remaining academys next turn. He decided to go for it next turn. I took a long turn with biggs and a 1 move with the Y so he was in my bubble. The B's continued and dumped stress. One crashed into a tie, the other had no arc but Barrel rolled so he could Koio easier next turn. He didn't expect my move with biggs, so he fired at him, finishing him off. But he was in 2 with the Y-wing and i scored 3 hits with my ion cannon. He took a hit from it, and that was win for me basically. No matter how he would decloak move he would not get a shot on anything next turn. I koioed my B's and turned the Y. He tried to move away the phantom from the B's but ended just at range 3 from the Y for it. That was a mistake because i took a stress and gave him a stress with the R2. I could have fired one of the B's at him but i decided against it, and finished the remaining Tie with both B's. After that i removed stress on all of my ships as he did, but now i had him cornered by a healthy Y and 2 full health B's he tried to run away along the sude after that to get around me, but then when he thought it was opportune took a shot at one of my B's. I had a shot again with my Y and a B. I stressef him again but even though he did 4 danage to my B, i shot back and vaporized him.

With Whisper it was easier for me as this time wanting to avoid jousting with my Y-Wing and getting a Stress and possibly an ion on top, he had planned to barrel Roll to one side but he couldn't because of an asteroid. So he boosted 2 forward for decloaking and barely ended out of the Y's main arc. But i had a shot with Biggs and a B at range 2 (although barely) long story short he had to focus to take no damage from Biggs, having used his other focus to get a crit through the Y's shields, but the B scored 3 hits and he rolled 4 eyes... Then the Y scored 2 hits and he rolled 2 blanks, 2 eyes. Ioned and dead... The swarm then failed at killing Biggs. Next turn i popped 2 ties and he conceded since he failed again to do the slightest damage to biggs that turn.

@ForceM: nice write-up, but you were actually too nice to the Phantom: a Phantom with an ion token does not reveal its maneuver dial on the following turn, and accordingly it can't decloak at all. (This is the same reason an ionized ship can't drop a bomb or use Advanced Sensors.)

Ok, people keep saying this - I can only tell you that in my experience - it is not as fragile as people are claiming it to be.

Maybe your experience is different - I cannot speak to that.

Fair enough RE: Tournaments - it will be interesting to see it's appearance rate.

I've been one-shot out of my Interceptors and shot down enough A-wings to know that 4 THP and two defence dice does not make for a sturdy ship. If you're lucky, sure, but averages and percentage calcs have a way of biting you in the rear at the most inopportune moments. Like that one trio of hits that also had a crit. Which turns out to be a Direct Hit.

Phantom's best defence is staying out of arcs altogether. And in that it excels like no other ship in the game.

Just beat the tar out of Whisper with Roark + Ywing + xwing + awing... throw in a stress bot, flechette, and ions and it's a phantom killer.

Well... whisper was last, Roark only had 1 hp, xwing only had 1 hp... so it was closeish.

Expert handling might become a named Phantom need. Shakes target locks

Nope. If you don't have Veteran Instincts, the Elites will kill your Phantom. Seriously, Veteran Instincts is very, very important to Advanced Cloaking Device.

Ya but then no veteran instincts and takes an action.

Possible no cloak, focus which I like when I am Cloaked, no evade (which I never use)

Plus stress. Nay Nay!

Nope. If you don't have Veteran Instincts, the Elites will kill your Phantom. Seriously, Veteran Instincts is very, very important to Advanced Cloaking Device.

That depends, though. If I have Echo + ACD, then any time I face a list with no ships on PS6-8 it's a wasted point and a wasted slot to take Veteran Instincts (because either I shoot first without it or I can't shoot first at all). And that makes it another interesting metagame choice, because (e.g.) Outmaneuver is a really attractive talent for Phantoms. So that makes it another interesting list-building decision: how afraid are you of ships on PS6-8? Is there anyone in that range that's common in your local/regional metagame, and how confident are you that your arc-dodging will protect you if you run into a list against which your cloak can't?

Ya but then no veteran instincts and takes an action.

Possible no cloak, focus which I like when I am Cloaked, no evade (which I never use)

Plus stress. Nay Nay!

Expert Handling won't cause stress.

The dependency on Veteran Instincts won't help you when faced with any of the 24 pilots that are or easily can be at PS 9.

If you say that Whisper needs to be at 9 in order to survive you'll be in a lot of trouble as PS 9 and higher will be just as prevalent as Phantoms will be for a while.

I also think Intelligence Agent and Navigator will be around a bit more.

Roark Garnet + Ion Cannon Turret + Tactician (26)

Etahn A'baht (32)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Rookie Pilot (21)

I could see this being trouble for a Phantom and Etahn let's he hits that get trough hurt a little more.

Step 1, choose a squad

Step 2, play against it using 4 phantoms

Step 3, record the results.

Step 4, repeat step 1 - 3 1000 times

Step 5, check for win rate.

Step 6, realize the base phantom with 4 attack is definitely broken/not broken

Question answered, profit.

Step 1, choose a squad

Step 2, play against it using 4 phantoms

Step 3, record the results.

Step 4, repeat step 1 - 3 1000 times

Step 5, check for win rate.

Step 6, realize the base phantom with 4 attack is definitely broken/not broken

Question answered, profit.

Challenge accepted!

1: Rebel Operative, Blaster Turret X 5

2: Done

3: ouch

4: ouch times lotsmany

6: definitely broken.

Oh wait, you don't have to play against it with the same squad for a 1000 times.

There goes my wiseassery.

Ya but then no veteran instincts and takes an action.

Possible no cloak, focus which I like when I am Cloaked, no evade (which I never use)

Plus stress. Nay Nay!

Expert Handling won't cause stress.

The dependency on Veteran Instincts won't help you when faced with any of the 24 pilots that are or easily can be at PS 9.

If you say that Whisper needs to be at 9 in order to survive you'll be in a lot of trouble as PS 9 and higher will be just as prevalent as Phantoms will be for a while.

I also think Intelligence Agent and Navigator will be around a bit more.

When my friends and I play we don't tell each other what we are flying till we all decide. That way no is flying a count list to the other.

Just like in the tournament scene you don't know what your going to be up against. Getting that higher ps may be the game changer.

Ya sure there are other ships that can still shot before you, but when you have one ship shooting instead of 2-3 that gives you a better chance to kill something before it kills you.

I've been using the Phantom a lot,and actually I haven't even used Whisper. Only echo. Echo is a beast. I've beaten lists with wedge with swarm tactics /Falcon/Y wings /shuttle with mini swarms etc.

Veteran Insticts had played a big role in some games and not in others, but when you don't know what your flying against its a big help.

Now if I was too fly over of the other two lower ps pilots I would probably give them the spa upgrade with recon specialist and see how they plays out.

I'm sure when ffg design the Phantom they didn't think that the named pilots always had to have veteran instincts on them, but it does help.

The build I came up with scarlet ghost has about 8 wins now I think and two loses. The losses were mostly due to extreme pilot error more than anything

So if I'm flying against a Howlrunner with st, then worst case scenerio Phantom dies,but still gets to shoot. Best case he kills Howl first.

Having the ps of 8 means your shooting before a lot more ships than if your shooting at a 6.

Same thing can be said for Whisper.

You don't see to many lists that run all 9 ps, Usually there is one or two, and in that case your not getting focus fired.

Plus with the manueverability of the Phantom those high ps still have to catch you which makes it harder

Expert Handling doesn't stress you if you have a barrel roll icon, but the point remains. VI is almost mandatory, as is bidding for Initiative.

@ForceM: nice write-up, but you were actually too nice to the Phantom: a Phantom with an ion token does not reveal its maneuver dial on the following turn, and accordingly it can't decloak at all. (This is the same reason an ionized ship can't drop a bomb or use Advanced Sensors.)

Ah that's nice. I knew the one about the Sensors, but not the other 2. I thought it was no prerequisite to have a template for it. Nice, because that makes ion weapons really even scarier to Phantoms. I could then probably have finished it off earlier.

Well anyway, the Gold squadron how i flew it needs to be the prime target of the phantom, and you need to basically kill it from range 3. If it ever gets a lock or a focus and can fire its turret, and survives to fire, chances are that a hit gets through and if it does while the enemy still hs some ships, that's bad for you!

So here is the break down of a patter I see with primary attacks. 1 laser cannon = 1 attack (HWK)

2 laser cannons = 2 attack (Tie Fighter, Tie Advanced, Tie Bomber, A-Wing, Z-95)

3-4 laser cannons = 3 attack (X-Wing, B-Wing, Tie Interceptor, Tie Defender, E-Wing)

5+ laser cannons = 4 attack (Tie Phantom)

You don't see to many lists that run all 9 ps, Usually there is one or two, and in that case your not getting focus fired.

Plus with the manueverability of the Phantom those high ps still have to catch you which makes it harder

Getting caught is the game.

But reliance on VI as the only thing keeping you alive is hopping along on a straw crutch. Positioning is going to be more important, as is flexibility in formation flying. People will get more used to the ship and get a feel for the ending positions with Intelligence Agent and Navigator setting up blockades in likely spots. They will know where your maneuver is taking you and unless you are flying Echo your decloaks are going to be predictable (not speaking in absolutes, but in general evolvement of the playing field, the Phantom flyer will evolve as well of course), VI notwithstanding.

Better to get ahead of the pack. .

There are other ways to get high PS without resorting to VI so that you can even lift a Sigma to vader levels. I'm looking forward to trying out two sigma's with FCS, IA and ACD paired with Vader with Decoy and EU. It's going to be a tough list to learn to fly correctly, if it works at all, but the payoff should be high in flexibility.

Don't know how it works mechanically. But it's blasphemous to the game thematically and ruins my immersion. Rebel ships have heavier fire. There's going to be a house rule among my friends that either takes a hit die away from it or rebel ships get +1.

This game is very well made and my favorite mechanics, but every once in while there's a mechanics decision that really affects the immersion. Like the falcon not getting a barrel roll, yeah that was house ruled.