I have played several games with the phantom using Echo. Echo can pull off some crazy moves, and is hard to kill. Plus I have been using rebel captive on it.

What I have seen is players that fly a close formation or spread out to far get murdered. Players that can fly in between do the best because if they need to shoot the phantom most of the time they can plus they can still deal with the other ships. A single y-wing with an ion turret is great against the phantom. Not being able to decloak is the worse thing that can happen to a phantom. IMO the extra movement from decloak is what makes the phantom great.

The phantom is a noob-stomper for sure. If you are concerned about it, you just need to learn to fly against it. I welcome the phantom and its 4 attack dice with open arms, since it will break up the stale "cluster all of my ships together and joust the enemy" style games that typically happen. Hurray for real tactical flying!

A ship that really has potential to stir up the meta a bit. Thankfully the rebels have The B-Wing and the A-Wing with nice new and old Missiles. Those can be really mobile themselves, and with Rebel aces we will see two things to counter Phantoms with those ships.

B-Wings will be flown more elite. They are currently in the Meta as Daggers or Blues. And they actually have good pilots with great skills, and i am not only talking about Farlander there. You can equip them for insane maneuvers with adv. Sensors and engine upgrade, paired with PTL for example (well okay might need VI here). That's very viable against phantoms if you ask me, especially if you have high pilot skill to begin with. Just jousting is really not all there is to the B-Wing i think.

Tycho with Missiles might be another Headache for Phantoms. He is fast and pretty **** resilient himself. Prototypes might be used as cheap blockers for phantoms. Making a Phantom bump is maybe difficult but as they act as lone wolves you don't risk a lot of enemy fire yourself. Making them lose an action is although catastrophic because they really need tokens for defense. Assuming they roll advanced cloak that is of course...

As for other Rebel ships

The new E-Wing might also shine, has good maneuvrability and if loaded up to a Phantom point level can compete in tankiness and firepower. Especially Corran might need one good shot and a Phantom is smoked. Also his hit and run tactics will sure be good against it. I have no idea how to equip him for Phantom-hunting but i will let that to you. The only thing i have on the negative side is that he costs really a lot and if compared to a loaded Whisper that costs about the same, he seems less powerful. I would have costed him maybe a bit lower, some 33 points perhaps, his squadmate one less. E-wing Has less firepower per shot and less effective agility and mobility. (Same goes for the named Defenders if you ask me)

I feel standard X-Wings might fall a bit out of favor as they just don't offer enough to folow the crazy moves of the Phantom. Biggs will stay, Wedge and other named X-Wings certainly too.

Look on the bright side, the Phantom is a good counter for mini-swarms in the first round of an escalation event.

Just finished a game flying

Echo+vi+recon+ad cloak

RGP +PTL

APx3

Vs.

Garven

Tarn +r7

Dagger + Advanced Sen

Blue

Echo got to the end game and for Tarn and the Dagger that was rough going. Tarn took a lot of fire before going down. Opponent was able to keep echo in sights with at least one ship most turns but the dice favored the Phantom this time. Dice were really lopsided overall unless I was shooting at Tarn...**** reroller.

The Phantom may be a beast of an attacker, but compared to a ship like the Falcon with upgraded weapons systems it just seems out of place as there is no real mechanism to reflect the more powerful weapons of larger ships like the Falcon and now the Decimator for example.

The phantom has 4 dice because it appears out of nowhere.

It has 4 attack dice because it has 5 laser cannons - the first ship that I know of to have that much firepower.

• 4 Laser cannons is established to be a 3 dice attack (X-wing, interceptor)
• The Defender has 4 lasers and 2 ion cannons - but the latter are represented by its cannon slot
• The Falcon has two turrets with four lasers in each - but they are on opposite sides of the ship so only one can realistically be firing at once

Not at all. How about people actually put in some time against it before announcing it broken? A handful of games post-Imdaar are hardly sufficient sample size to declare it a "mistake."

I didn't announce it was broken. I didn't declare it a "mistake". Perhaps you should learn to read and understand before jumping to conclusions.

mistake vs broken? Is there really a difference...I dont see one. Care to explain?

The Phantom may be a beast of an attacker, but compared to a ship like the Falcon with upgraded weapons systems it just seems out of place as there is no real mechanism to reflect the more powerful weapons of larger ships like the Falcon and now the Decimator for example.

The phantom has 4 dice because it appears out of nowhere.

It has 4 attack dice because it has 5 laser cannons - the first ship that I know of to have that much firepower.

• 4 Laser cannons is established to be a 3 dice attack (X-wing, interceptor)
• The Defender has 4 lasers and 2 ion cannons - but the latter are represented by its cannon slot
• The Falcon has two turrets with four lasers in each - but they are on opposite sides of the ship so only one can realistically be firing at once

The phantom doesn't have higher powered weaponary than an X-wing, and definitely doesn't outclass a Firespray. The Falcon can fire both guns at one ship if that ship is coplanar. In the other source where the phantom appears mechanically (Forces of Corruption) it has underpowered guns compared to the Interceptor. Unless you want to claim the TIE phantom outclasses the VT-49 Decimator or whatever those giant things atop the Outrider are, it doesn't have 4 dice for being the most heavily armed ship in the game.

Why does the phantom have four dice? Game mechanics. It would be a rather underwhelming ship as a 3 dicer. It's also a ship built around cloaking, which takes its attack away, meaning it isn't designed to be shooting as much.

FFG's not copying EU, they're making a game. Both the B-wing and Y-wing outclass the TIE defender in shields and hull respectively. Does that fit EU? No. The TIE defender has a harder time turning than most ships in the game. That doesn't fit EU's depiction at all, it's like that for mechanical reasons.

If that doesn't convince you, look at the Z-95. It's got rocket launchers bolted to the bottom of its wings.

Who put them there? FFG.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know. The rebels need a 4 ice ship though, of that I am certain.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

Killing a phantom with small base ships is *exceptionally* difficult. Even with a PS advantage, you have to be a better pilot AND luckier on the dice, every time.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

Or that it really fits your style of play. I've seen what the Phantom can do, yet, I still tend to lean toward wanting to play Interceptors (or Defenders).

The Phantom may be a beast of an attacker, but compared to a ship like the Falcon with upgraded weapons systems it just seems out of place as there is no real mechanism to reflect the more powerful weapons of larger ships like the Falcon and now the Decimator for example.

The phantom has 4 dice because it appears out of nowhere.

It has 4 attack dice because it has 5 laser cannons - the first ship that I know of to have that much firepower.

• 4 Laser cannons is established to be a 3 dice attack (X-wing, interceptor)
• The Defender has 4 lasers and 2 ion cannons - but the latter are represented by its cannon slot
• The Falcon has two turrets with four lasers in each - but they are on opposite sides of the ship so only one can realistically be firing at once

The phantom doesn't have higher powered weaponary than an X-wing, and definitely doesn't outclass a Firespray. The Falcon can fire both guns at one ship if that ship is coplanar. In the other source where the phantom appears mechanically (Forces of Corruption) it has underpowered guns compared to the Interceptor. Unless you want to claim the TIE phantom outclasses the VT-49 Decimator or whatever those giant things atop the Outrider are, it doesn't have 4 dice for being the most heavily armed ship in the game.

Why does the phantom have four dice? Game mechanics. It would be a rather underwhelming ship as a 3 dicer. It's also a ship built around cloaking, which takes its attack away, meaning it isn't designed to be shooting as much.

FFG's not copying EU, they're making a game. Both the B-wing and Y-wing outclass the TIE defender in shields and hull respectively. Does that fit EU? No. The TIE defender has a harder time turning than most ships in the game. That doesn't fit EU's depiction at all, it's like that for mechanical reasons.

If that doesn't convince you, look at the Z-95. It's got rocket launchers bolted to the bottom of its wings.

Who put them there? FFG.

The thing comes out of no where. It surprises who ever is going after. Maybe that's the reason why the four dice.

Sneak attack.

Though from what I understand it's suppose to be a pretty powerful ship

Or that it really fits your style of play. I've seen what the Phantom can do, yet, I still tend to lean toward wanting to play Interceptors (or Defenders).

Fair enough - but I used to be a Squint guy.

The Phantom is everything you loved about a squint - only better. (Ok, the cost isn't better, but yeah.)

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

The real question will be, how will we learn to play against it? It's a great ship. Fun to play, Dangerous, and agile. But it's the fun that' making you want to play it, the number of choices it offers. Choice is both fun, and effective and the Phantom allows more choice than any other ship, short of the Huge ships(which are also incredibly fun to play)

Powerwise, I think they're still quite balanced. As many choices as they offer, they'e still far from impossible to predict, and they go down fast against a lot of lists. Which is to say, extreme fragility is a big deal. The Interceptor was too fragile. It barely got played for a long time because of it. The Phantom is quite a bit more expensive, and similarly fragile for the cost.

Basically, don't confuse Fun with Overpowered.

Or that it really fits your style of play. I've seen what the Phantom can do, yet, I still tend to lean toward wanting to play Interceptors (or Defenders).

I'm still on my Interceptors. Phantom fulfills the same role but flys completely different. I said before in this thread I feel the Phantom is all about pre-action and the interceptor more about reaction. Both can do both but that is where the main difference for me lies.

The Phantom is like a really good passrusher in football.

The offensive coordinator has to SPECIFICALLY address that guy, whether it's a new scheme, a double team, misdirection, etc.

The Phantom is that guy. If you don't specifically address the phantom it will wreck you in short order. And double teaming that REALLY good passrusher leaves a hole somewhere else in the offensive front.

This too is perfectly replicated with the Phantom. Addressing it with multiple ships substantially weakens your fight against the REST of the opponents list.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

The real question will be, how will we learn to play against it? It's a great ship. Fun to play, Dangerous, and agile. But it's the fun that' making you want to play it, the number of choices it offers. Choice is both fun, and effective and the Phantom allows more choice than any other ship, short of the Huge ships(which are also incredibly fun to play)

Powerwise, I think they're still quite balanced. As many choices as they offer, they'e still far from impossible to predict, and they go down fast against a lot of lists. Which is to say, extreme fragility is a big deal. The Interceptor was too fragile. It barely got played for a long time because of it. The Phantom is quite a bit more expensive, and similarly fragile for the cost.

Basically, don't confuse Fun with Overpowered.

I am not trying to be overly argumentative, but I have been playing the Phantom because it OBLITERATES things.

I suppose you can #FUN that, but only if you're on the giving end.

I honestly think the entire game is fun, but I have been running my Phantom because it's a beast.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know. The rebels need a 4 ice ship though, of that I am certain.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

Killing a phantom with small base ships is *exceptionally* difficult. Even with a PS advantage, you have to be a better pilot AND luckier on the dice, every time.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

Likely because you're playing by the old meta the phantom was built to kill.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know. The rebels need a 4 ice ship though, of that I am certain.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

Killing a phantom with small base ships is *exceptionally* difficult. Even with a PS advantage, you have to be a better pilot AND luckier on the dice, every time.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

Likely because you're playing by the old meta the phantom was built to kill.

This, admittedly, could be the case - I am anxiously awaiting a few of the new ships to test some high PS builds against it.

However, having said that - high ps X-Wing builds haven't fared so well.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

The real question will be, how will we learn to play against it? It's a great ship. Fun to play, Dangerous, and agile. But it's the fun that' making you want to play it, the number of choices it offers. Choice is both fun, and effective and the Phantom allows more choice than any other ship, short of the Huge ships(which are also incredibly fun to play)

Powerwise, I think they're still quite balanced. As many choices as they offer, they'e still far from impossible to predict, and they go down fast against a lot of lists. Which is to say, extreme fragility is a big deal. The Interceptor was too fragile. It barely got played for a long time because of it. The Phantom is quite a bit more expensive, and similarly fragile for the cost.

Basically, don't confuse Fun with Overpowered.

I am not trying to be overly argumentative, but I have been playing the Phantom because it OBLITERATES things.

I suppose you can #FUN that, but only if you're on the giving end.

I honestly think the entire game is fun, but I have been running my Phantom because it's a beast.

One thing to remember. In a tournament setting having a common list that can easily handle 30-40% of your list makes your list bad. Many Falcon lists can easily be tailored to deal handily with Phantoms without making them innefective. That means Phantoms aren't especially going to help you in a tournament scene.

I'm not saying Phantoms are bad(although in Epic they kind of are) I'm saying that as much as they destroy things, they aren't any better at it than any other metagame staple, and have more weaknesses than most because of how much they rely on the cloak action to make up for their extreme fragility.

Well, yes. But it also goes down fast. Usually in the first two attacks launched at it. It's a beast right now. But as has been discussed, there are any number of ways to hinder it. Stress, Turrets, High pilot Skill, etc.

One thing to remember. In a tournament setting having a common list that can easily handle 30-40% of your list makes your list bad. Many Falcon lists can easily be tailored to deal handily with Phantoms without making them innefective. That means Phantoms aren't especially going to help you in a tournament scene.

I'm not saying Phantoms are bad(although in Epic they kind of are) I'm saying that as much as they destroy things, they aren't any better at it than any other metagame staple, and have more weaknesses than most because of how much they rely on the cloak action to make up for their extreme fragility.

Ok, people keep saying this - I can only tell you that in my experience - it is not as fragile as people are claiming it to be.

Maybe your experience is different - I cannot speak to that.

Fair enough RE: Tournaments - it will be interesting to see it's appearance rate.

Well, yes. But it also goes down fast. Usually in the first two attacks launched at it. It's a beast right now. But as has been discussed, there are any number of ways to hinder it. Stress, Turrets, High pilot Skill, etc.

One thing to remember. In a tournament setting having a common list that can easily handle 30-40% of your list makes your list bad. Many Falcon lists can easily be tailored to deal handily with Phantoms without making them innefective. That means Phantoms aren't especially going to help you in a tournament scene.

I'm not saying Phantoms are bad(although in Epic they kind of are) I'm saying that as much as they destroy things, they aren't any better at it than any other metagame staple, and have more weaknesses than most because of how much they rely on the cloak action to make up for their extreme fragility.

Ok, people keep saying this - I can only tell you that in my experience - it is not as fragile as people are claiming it to be.

Maybe your experience is different - I cannot speak to that.

Fair enough RE: Tournaments - it will be interesting to see it's appearance rate.

If it loses its cloak, it dies.

If it faces A falcon and Roark it dies on its second turn in the fray. Given that both the Falcon and Roark are already awesome I see this as a huge problem.

If it stays cloaked and doesn't take more attacks than it has focus tokens it lives, can take no damage for a long long time, but this requires perfect play.

Funnily enough, that means sometimes it's easier to take out with two ships than 4.

Basically, a single mistake can kill you.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know. The rebels need a 4 ice ship though, of that I am certain.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

Killing a phantom with small base ships is *exceptionally* difficult. Even with a PS advantage, you have to be a better pilot AND luckier on the dice, every time.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

Likely because you're playing by the old meta the phantom was built to kill.

This, admittedly, could be the case - I am anxiously awaiting a few of the new ships to test some high PS builds against it.

However, having said that - high ps X-Wing builds haven't fared so well.

Be careful not to slam too hard in the opposite direction: the phantom was built to kill low PS spam, but high PS spam still gets killed by low PS spam by simply not having enough hull and gun.

The phantom was designed to kill the meta and by the look of it it does so by cyclising it: go all elite pilots and you'll die to to the old low PS swarms, go low PS swarm and you die to the TIE phantoms. If everyone flies the same sort of thing, thinking it's "good" because it won then it takes one person to figure "to hell with scissors" and pick up the rock.

The way to win now is to throw the old "wisdom" out of the window. Take a second look at ships the meta discarded long ago, and in different ways at the current staples. Currently I'm thinking the way to go now is a high skilled pilot or two and then lower skill pilots. Plus, I think Roark Garnet will finally come into his own.

Also, part of why the phantom is winning so much now is because Vassal is positively drenched in the meta and people are slow to let the meta go.

Well, I feel like I've said this in at least 10 threads.

I have at least 30 games in with the Phantom, playing with and against it.

It is an absolute monster. Does it rise to level of broken? I honestly don't know. The rebels need a 4 ice ship though, of that I am certain.

But those of you downplaying it are either fooling yourselves or just don't want to admit it. I play a LOT of Imperial and I will never play another Imperial game WITHOUT a Phantom.

That, in and of itself, is enough to convince me that it's overpowered IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER SHIPS. Again, maybe it's not overpowered to the point of broken, but it is stronger than any other small base ship.

Killing a phantom with small base ships is *exceptionally* difficult. Even with a PS advantage, you have to be a better pilot AND luckier on the dice, every time.

And those of you saying that cloaking is a weakness somehow are delusional or intentionally downplaying it's effectiveness.

Likely because you're playing by the old meta the phantom was built to kill.

This, admittedly, could be the case - I am anxiously awaiting a few of the new ships to test some high PS builds against it.

However, having said that - high ps X-Wing builds haven't fared so well.

Be careful not to slam too hard in the opposite direction: the phantom was built to kill low PS spam, but high PS spam still gets killed by low PS spam by simply not having enough hull and gun.

The phantom was designed to kill the meta and by the look of it it does so by cyclising it: go all elite pilots and you'll die to to the old low PS swarms, go low PS swarm and you die to the TIE phantoms. If everyone flies the same sort of thing, thinking it's "good" because it won then it takes one person to figure "to hell with scissors" and pick up the rock.

The way to win now is to throw the old "wisdom" out of the window. Take a second look at ships the meta discarded long ago, and in different ways at the current staples. Currently I'm thinking the way to go now is a high skilled pilot or two and then lower skill pilots. Plus, I think Roark Garnet will finally come into his own.

Also, part of why the phantom is winning so much now is because Vassal is positively drenched in the meta and people are slow to let the meta go.

Ya but even so. If your opponent is chasing the Phantom then that leaves the rest of your squad to do as it pleases.

If your opponent chooses to chase it he would have to have at least 2 ships to probably kill it first turn. Assuming he is coming at it with 3 attack dice each.

If he doesn't kill it, he split his forces roughly in half. Leaving the rest of your squad to pick apart the rest of his.

Turrets is one thing that will hinder the Phantom, but (and especially with Echo)the way to deal with that is keep the Phantom as far as possible.

What are you going to shoot at with a Turret? A decloaked phantom at range 3 or something at range 1-2.

That's what I found is good to keep the Phantom alive.

Plus it's good to get behind this ships. Turrted ships still have to fly straight. Unlike echo who can dash around getting in behind asteroids. Keep your other ships glued to the Turret ship. If he ignores them it'll come back and bite his. Especially if he doesn't kill the Phantom.

Imo thats the key to keeping the Phantom alive. Your other ships are going to be cost to his, so what do you shoot at? The easy kill? Or possibly no kill and still have to deal with the entire squad?

It's a tough call.

The only time I've lost a Phantom or game is when I made a huge error in my part. Which to me is the Phantoms biggest weakness. Player error.

Even then I've managed to keep echo Alive,but there was some luck

(2-3 rounds I couldn't cloak one game due to bad piloting. Each round I had three target locks on him, and his three ships also each had focus. Still managed to keep him alive and win the game)

Edit:

I will admit they are fragile. One game two tie fighters killed echo. He rolled 2 hits with each and I rolled two blanks.

Still though for their weak hull/shields is their maneuverability they makes up for it.

Your opponent may get some shots off,but it'll be hard for him to get all ships in firing distance,and again if he is chasing that, he is ignoring the rest of your ships.

If he does kill it, then hopefully your other ships did some dmg,and even the playing field

Here's the thing about high PS vs low PS. Predator changes the dynamic. Will low PS ships be able to keep up with the added damage the Elites will be doing to them?

Not throw it out the window. Find the balance between what was, and what is. But yes, agreed.

Shipwise, precisely. The old line of more ships beats skilled ships no longer holds fully true though.