Why would you want to keep your TL, when you cant TL a target which you already have TL on? Dutch becomes irritating to use when he cant clear his TL

Corran Horn would be better as a Phantom killer, IMO. VI, FCS, and the stress droid. EU may be required as well, though barrel roll may be enough and leave more points for the squad. Don't have an E-Wing yet, just a Phantom, so speculative only. Corran should hit the Phantom at least once, tag it with stress so it can't recloak, maybe finish it with the double tap.

Curious to all those that think the Phantom isn't ridiculous (in attack and movement), what lists would you all run if you knew you were going up against Echo and Whisper with VI+ACD on them both.

For this thought experiment, you cannot take a ship with 360* firing arc.

What do you go with?

Something with Roark or a PS8-9 VI in it.

Hey what's up everybody, I was the one who just played Ribann on vassal and I must say most of the reason I lost was due to my own maneuvering mistakes. I still need some more time with phantoms (this was only my third). That that ion really screwed me up. Ions are definitely enemy number one for phantoms. But I did get really close to killing dutch and especially wedge, and I am confident that the game really could have gone either way. The list was a good counter to phantoms the most with wedge at 11 ps but I think the number ne way to lose with a phantom list is not ions, stress or turrets but by lack of skill. They really are an amazing ship though.

Thanks again for the game Ribann and now I know why so many people were watching lol

Edit: and I also will return with more phantom practice next time for revenge

With how long each wave has been in development I hardly think 4 attack is a mistake. I admit though even I flinched when I saw that high of a value.

I believe it's balanced by how tricky it is to fly, the Phantom is not a forgiving fighter. In the right hands its a beast, just like the Interceptors are, but I think it has more to loose if it's locked down with red tokens.

Moreover it can't utilize it's high attack and agility powers constantly. There's a window of time between spending the cloak token to move and being able to shoot that someone, like Wedge, could exploit. And that's where some of the calls for more High-skill pilots come in, because they can act in that window when the Phantom is most vulnerable.

I've flown proxy phantoms a few times and while they perform impressive feats (like blowing the shields off a shuttle in one blast)... I didn't win with them. And that's not on account of poor flying.

Error. Ignore this.

Another good counter team might be Wes with R2-A3 and VI, plus anyone that can reliably get a homing missile in on them. Cracken with VI comes to mind. Wes strips focus and Homing missiles would ignore any evades left while also keeping TL for rerolls. You might not get arcs how you want but if you do you apply a lot of pressure.

I don't mind you saying what you'll bring to the table if you were flying against a Phantom. I respectfully considered what you said.

However, I'm just saying is it worth it to build a list where you don't know if you'll encounter a Phantom or not?

And like I've said many times, the entire design point of the Phantom seems to be to make it impossible to build lists that will win against everything.

Ya, I'm afraid that if you flown this list especially the way you described it, you would probably get torn apart.

Having your three pilots trying to cover all angles will mean maybe one would get a shot. Next your down a pilot.

Plus if it were me, you would also have two ties and kath coming at you.

Don't forget your not just fighting against one ship.

All three of your ships would have to be able to fire at him. Not one or two.

Plus how do you know who you are playing.

I like that specific build, but timing is everything, and I think in this case, it's easier for the rebel player to slip up over an experienced echo pilot

Ribann specifically told us to "Make a list that can counter the Whisper/Echo combo" (which means no Kath + two TIE's, just two extra TIE's tops, and 4V3 are odds an X-wing squadron can win against).

The tactics I described are based on what I've read in this thread so far, which is that it's not the 4 attack on the Phantom that makes it so dangerous, it's the sliperyness of the cloak that's the real threat. Bunching up your fighters against two Phantoms means you're going to get flanked one way or another. Which means we'll have to learn to avoid that.

The idea of this list, controversial though it may be, is to stay at long range as long as possible. Longer range means broader arcs, which means its harder for the Phantom to dodge the arcs and get behind you. Wes and Wedge both have abilities that can severely reduce the survivability of the craft they're firing against, which means you'll get hits faster and more often. Luke unfortunately doesn't have such an ability, but his high PS means he'll still be shooting against the Phantom's defence of two.

I really love these sorts of online meta discussions. Takes me back to my childhood days of running around the yard yelling "I got you!" "No you didn't" "Yes I did".

The Phantom requires a completely new approach to flying against it.

Formations will have serious problems. It's something you have to know how your list can handle. But it's a bit early to be declaring it a mistake.

If Tycho with Prototype Pilot, PTL, VI, and Cluster Missiles or Concussion Missile can't smoke Echo/Whisper, I will eat my hat.

Homing missiles... Keep the TL and score the 4 hits with focus and reroll, while ignoring any potential evades. That's 3-4 hits against 2 def with possibly focus. That should do quite some damage especially against uncloaked enemies. The rest is pretty much luck, or finishing him off.

You could also run the Chardan Refit and wait for them To decloak in order to ping them. But them you'd need to outmaneuver them constantly and that's really impossible even for an A-Wing.

I really love these sorts of online meta discussions. Takes me back to my childhood days of running around the yard yelling "I got you!" "No you didn't" "Yes I did".

The Phantom requires a completely new approach to flying against it.

Formations will have serious problems. It's something you have to know how your list can handle. But it's a bit early to be declaring it a mistake.

And Formations are still your best bet of covering angles of fire. If you go with Lone wolves against Phantoms i don't believe it can work. Because one ship is easy to outmaneuver for them (except you have an elite pilot with tons of mobility upgrades yourself but that's also some 40 pts then...) while multiple angles are not that easy to dodge. Wingmen cover each other's backs you know... This makes a bit more sense against Phantoms now.

To make this quite clear a fully equipped Whisper is about 40 points. For that points you get 2 Blue Squadron. He needs 4 shots at least to get rid of you. No problem if you fly them alone. But if you get to shoot back only twice he might be dead in those 2 turns.

I don't reall believe that the Phantom is the end of low skill pilots. If you have good action economy and 3 attack dice you are very dangerous even to 4 green dice plus focus. One bump or one bad dice roll and he is just dead while you can afford it!

I really love these sorts of online meta discussions. Takes me back to my childhood days of running around the yard yelling "I got you!" "No you didn't" "Yes I did".

The Phantom requires a completely new approach to flying against it.

Formations will have serious problems. It's something you have to know how your list can handle. But it's a bit early to be declaring it a mistake.

There is only so much a Rebel list with No turrets can achieve in mobility.

And Formations are still your best bet of covering angles of fire. If you go with Lone wolves against Phantoms i don't believe it can work. Because one ship is easy to outmaneuver for them while multiple are not.

To make this quite clear a fully equipped Whisper is about 40 points. For that points you get 2 Blue Squadron. He needs 4 shots at least to get rid of you. No problem if you fly them alone. But if you get to shoot back only twice he might be dead in those 2 turns.

I don't reall believe that the Phantom is the end of low skill pilots. If you have good action economy and 3 attack dice you are very dangerous even to 4 green dice plus focus. One bump or one bad dice roll and he is just dead while you can afford it!

Formations the best bet to cover multiple angles of fire? How? You're only covering one angle, with a limited radius at that. A Phantom can flank that with very little issue. The idea of spreading your arcs is not to go lone wolf against the Phantom but to make sure you have all angles covered and can put the Phantom in a pincer before he gets the chance to flank everything you've got.

Outrider HCL tricks will munch on phantoms. Everything has an answer, and Dash in his rock garden ain't afraid of no ghosts.

Formations the best bet to cover multiple angles of fire? How? You're only covering one angle, with a limited radius at that. A Phantom can flank that with very little issue. The idea of spreading your arcs is not to go lone wolf against the Phantom but to make sure you have all angles covered and can put the Phantom in a pincer before he gets the chance to flank everything you've got.

I have not played against or with a Phantom, yet, and after reading some of the comments on this thread my input can be taken or disregarded for what it is.

It sounds like it is the highly variable movement of the Phantom, and not so much the 4 red, that is the real issue.

I think the idea of 'formation' might have to change. My observation has been that a 'formation' tends include ships tightly packed together and facing arcs so that they all might focus as much fire onto the same target during the Combat Phase as possible. The Howlrunner Swarm for example.

I think that ForceM might be right in that a post-Phantom 'formation' might be spacing your ships so that your fire arcs overlap and criss cross so that they serve as traditional wingmen; covering each other's backs. Loss of fire saturation, gain of potential target coverage.

High PS, control weapons/effects, and limiting arc evasion through ship placement (or turrets) will be instramental in anti-Phantom tactics.

That, or like ForceM said about 2 Blues for the price of Whisper, being able to use superior numbers and HP take the punch and then and then punch them back can work too.

Side note: For all the fear that the recent flood of Rebel goodies, it is the Empire's and their Phantom that has people most afraid. All is right then in the Galaxy Far, Far Away.

I really love these sorts of online meta discussions. Takes me back to my childhood days of running around the yard yelling "I got you!" "No you didn't" "Yes I did".

The Phantom requires a completely new approach to flying against it.

Formations will have serious problems. It's something you have to know how your list can handle. But it's a bit early to be declaring it a mistake.

There is only so much a Rebel list with No turrets can achieve in mobility.

And Formations are still your best bet of covering angles of fire. If you go with Lone wolves against Phantoms i don't believe it can work. Because one ship is easy to outmaneuver for them while multiple are not.

To make this quite clear a fully equipped Whisper is about 40 points. For that points you get 2 Blue Squadron. He needs 4 shots at least to get rid of you. No problem if you fly them alone. But if you get to shoot back only twice he might be dead in those 2 turns.

I don't reall believe that the Phantom is the end of low skill pilots. If you have good action economy and 3 attack dice you are very dangerous even to 4 green dice plus focus. One bump or one bad dice roll and he is just dead while you can afford it!

Formations the best bet to cover multiple angles of fire? How? You're only covering one angle, with a limited radius at that. A Phantom can flank that with very little issue. The idea of spreading your arcs is not to go lone wolf against the Phantom but to make sure you have all angles covered and can put the Phantom in a pincer before he gets the chance to flank everything you've got.

It's more like they cover each other, if one gets outmaneuvered the other should have him and his assailant in his firing arc. Also if you try to pincer the Phantom he will go to a side faster than you can reply and kill one of your ships before the other can reply at tinr, then you're hosed. You need to fly formations that can immediately support a ship under fire, but not joust or just stubbornly hold formation while you get outflanked, well except you can outguess him and know where he will be that is.

Outrider HCL tricks will munch on phantoms. Everything has an answer, and Dash in his rock garden ain't afraid of no ghosts.

Then why not play HSF now and either bid for initiative or give him VI. He will dispatch Phantoms pretty good even if he will similarly take damage. Support him with Roark and ion turret and/or Ionwings. Should do the job really well. And it's not really losing every other matchup either.

Formations the best bet to cover multiple angles of fire? How? You're only covering one angle, with a limited radius at that. A Phantom can flank that with very little issue. The idea of spreading your arcs is not to go lone wolf against the Phantom but to make sure you have all angles covered and can put the Phantom in a pincer before he gets the chance to flank everything you've got.

I have not played against or with a Phantom, yet, and after reading some of the comments on this thread my input can be taken or disregarded for what it is.

It sounds like it is the highly variable movement of the Phantom, and not so much the 4 red, that is the real issue.

I think the idea of 'formation' might have to change. My observation has been that a 'formation' tends include ships tightly packed together and facing arcs so that they all might focus as much fire onto the same target during the Combat Phase as possible. The Howlrunner Swarm for example.

I think that ForceM might be right in that a post-Phantom 'formation' might be spacing your ships so that your fire arcs overlap and criss cross so that they serve as traditional wingmen; covering each other's backs. Loss of fire saturation, gain of potential target coverage.

High PS, control weapons/effects, and limiting arc evasion through ship placement (or turrets) will be instramental in anti-Phantom tactics.

That, or like ForceM said about 2 Blues for the price of Whisper, being able to use superior numbers and HP take the punch and then and then punch them back can work too.

Side note: For all the fear that the recent flood of Rebel goodies, it is the Empire's and their Phantom that has people most afraid. All is right then in the Galaxy Far, Far Away.

I really love these sorts of online meta discussions. Takes me back to my childhood days of running around the yard yelling "I got you!" "No you didn't" "Yes I did".

The Phantom requires a completely new approach to flying against it.

Formations will have serious problems. It's something you have to know how your list can handle. But it's a bit early to be declaring it a mistake.

There is only so much a Rebel list with No turrets can achieve in mobility.

And Formations are still your best bet of covering angles of fire. If you go with Lone wolves against Phantoms i don't believe it can work. Because one ship is easy to outmaneuver for them while multiple are not.

To make this quite clear a fully equipped Whisper is about 40 points. For that points you get 2 Blue Squadron. He needs 4 shots at least to get rid of you. No problem if you fly them alone. But if you get to shoot back only twice he might be dead in those 2 turns.

I don't reall believe that the Phantom is the end of low skill pilots. If you have good action economy and 3 attack dice you are very dangerous even to 4 green dice plus focus. One bump or one bad dice roll and he is just dead while you can afford it!

Formations the best bet to cover multiple angles of fire? How? You're only covering one angle, with a limited radius at that. A Phantom can flank that with very little issue. The idea of spreading your arcs is not to go lone wolf against the Phantom but to make sure you have all angles covered and can put the Phantom in a pincer before he gets the chance to flank everything you've got.

I can't follow you, flying formation does, at least to me, not mean that you do the same move and cover the same angle every turn.

It's more like they cover each other, if one gets outmaneuvered the other should have him and his assailant in his firing arc. Also if you try to pincer the Phantom he will go to a side faster than you can reply and kill one of your ships before the other can reply at tinr, then you're hosed. You need to fly formations that can immediately support a ship under fire, but not joust or just stubbornly hold formation while you get outflanked, well except you can outguess him and know where he will be that is.

Ahhh, I see. Looks like I misunderstood. I agree that cover-formation (if that is even a word) is going to be a critical way of flying against the Phantom. That's kind of what I was going for as well, I'm just way to used to "formation flying" meaning "stick side by side and focus all arcs in one direction to concentrate fire." My mistake.

Exactly, thank you!

You're Welcome.

The phantom is a noob-stomper for sure. If you are concerned about it, you just need to learn to fly against it. I welcome the phantom and its 4 attack dice with open arms, since it will break up the stale "cluster all of my ships together and joust the enemy" style games that typically happen. Hurray for real tactical flying!

The phantom is a noob-stomper for sure. If you are concerned about it, you just need to learn to fly against it. I welcome the phantom and its 4 attack dice with open arms, since it will break up the stale "cluster all of my ships together and joust the enemy" style games that typically happen. Hurray for real tactical flying!

Bringing back tactics to the tactical space dogfighting game?

One might think that FFG intended it to be played like that.

This might be a little late in the conversation but I'll just throw in my 2 cents.

I won't lie that I feel quite uncomfortable about the 4/5 attack of the Phantom and more so since its such a difficult ship to catch. To me it is both a glass cannon and a tank with the latter being more prevalent if the Phantom has a PS bid on you.

So far what has been discussed concerning anti- Phantom tactics seems fair and reasonable but I can't shake the thought that all these things might be easier said than done primarily due to the fact that the Phantom does not fly alone. Assuming that it has a PS bid on you, if you choose to go after the Phantom you will be forced to devote a majority of your squad to hunt it down which often leaves you dangerously open to being picked off by the support team. To compound the problem there's no guarantee that the Phantom will go down easily even when focused down on. Sure you can get lucky and your opponent rolls blanks but how often does that happen? More likely it will escape intact probably never to be caught again as it proceeds to dance around your ships popping them as it goes along. To be fair a flanking Soontir or RGP will create a similar dilemma but its still possible to catch a squint with their pants down if you position your ships well but a Phantom's ability to avoid arcs is far superior to that of an Interceptor and it has a bigger gun to go with it.

From the perspective of a Rebel player I currently have little confidence that the Phantom can be dealt with effectively outside of named YTs and turret lists but I'll admit I'm not the best X-wing player around neither do I have extensive experience flying against Phantoms so I am looking to the community to eventually find reliable countermeasures to deal with them. In the mean time though I do feel that its a little too powerful for its cost.

Dat Rng 1, tho.

A barrel rolling Dash is going to be hard to range 1. Around asteroids phantoms get skitterish

On the flipside of the Phantom Doom, it's important to remember that an Echo or Whisper is going to cost 35 to 37 points. That is quite a sizable chunk out of the Imperial's list, and taking it out means you will have wiped out over a third of your opponents squadron.

For a ship that can die in one round of shooting if the dice are even a bit on your side, that is worth a turn of focus fire.

On the flipside of the Phantom Doom, it's important to remember that an Echo or Whisper is going to cost 35 to 37 points. That is quite a sizable chunk out of the Imperial's list, and taking it out means you will have wiped out over a third of your opponents squadron.

For a ship that can die in one round of shooting if the dice are even a bit on your side, that is worth a turn of focus fire.

Focus fire you try

Succeed I do not know

I am an Interceptor maniac. I've flown them unconsciously into places no one could possible fit. It's the most amazing feeling to be untouchable. But 5% of the time, no matter how amazing and crazy I fly, no matter how perfectly I place my ship, I die instantly. Phantom plays much the same. They have shields but they also have only 2 hull so it's almost a wash.

Despite my mad skills, you cannot avoid all arcs all the time. Despite absolutely perfect flying in every way you will find yourself with all blanks or only 2 agility dice vs. an equal skill opponent. Both instances will lead to dead phantoms. Combine with stress, ion, and turrets and they are really not as scary as advertised.

There is a big learning curve, and Echo will do stupid stupid good things. But sometimes, often within the context of 2-3'games the phantoms will just fold. Or thier 5 dice+ retolls will decimate. Decimate. Not like the roman kind. No no. The colloquial usage.

Gone are the rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock... Sometimes you're just going to lose. And sometimes you are going to win no matter what. It's just a new game.