Ok, let's change the question a bit, what Rebel ship will end up getting 4 attack dice to balance this situation out?

I'm not sure this game needs to follow that logic (even though the YT-2400 did get the HLC turret option for 4 dice round the clock shooting). The Phantom can already be countered by a load of rebel options so balance already exists. ForceM listed several options a few posts up and there's always defaulting to turrets.

4 dice IS pretty solid. It certainly is borderline too much. ACD certainly makes it MUCH less of a risk/reward, and more of a reward.

We shall see how it faira in the tournament scene. I assume there will be mixed results as people will include at least one counter in their lists. Roark is pretty good, the Falcon, obviously. Someone try running Rebel Captive against it for me. It completely shuts down the ACD! Im not quite sure how Id beat a Kath with EH + Rebel Captuve when Im running whisper + ACD + various upgrades.

It's a little late in the thread, but what the heck:

No.

This has been another edition of Short Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in next time...

I gotta disagree with Robert here. I'd say the phantom would be properly costed at 3 attack dice and is severely under costed at 4.

Classic example of the logical fallacy known as "Begging the Question".

The veiled assertion that the 4 Attack stat is a "mistake" is very presumptuous at this point in time. No one except for the play-testers, ironically, have played enough games with this new ship to make either a positive or negative conclusion on this point.

except Vassal. It's been out for at least a month on Vassal.

If you just stick to meta-loved stuff and netsquadrons, of course the phantom will drive its daggerwings into your skull and dump four attack dice into your soul. That's exactly what FFG built it for. To kill off the low-PS meta.

How do you kill it? Think outside the meta. (METACEPTION!)

Phantoms kill low PS ships by being cloaked when they're attacked and by outmaneuvering them. Being 4HP ships they rely on not being shot. To kill a phantom, you must counter one of those.

PS? Any PS8 or PS9 pilot with an EPT can outPS Whisper VI.

Maneuverability? An ioned phantom can't decloak. You know exactly where it's going to go. Trouble ioning it? You're not likely to be fighting two phantoms, and Lieutenant Blount with Ion Pulse is a guaranteed hit. Stress and ion a phantom and it's a sitting duck. Or just defy the meta and break formation. That's a lot of arc for it to dodge.

Ion, stress, pilot skill. All can take out a phantom. And you can get two of these in a very reasonably priced package known as Roark Garnet.

In sorry but the very very few who have agreed with this post must just be players who either A) Don't like change because it the same old list they always

fly no longer works against a list with a Phantom on the board, or B) Can't deal with anything that is new or think out side the box.

If you guys had it your way the game would just stay the same and you can keep playing the same lists over and over again. Which is why thank god are not designers of this game.

The phantom is fine the way it is. It's not unbeatable, nor broken,and it doesn't need lists like wedge, Falcons, and turrets to beat it.

You just have to change your play style. But I guess those who don't like change are not going to like that.

I've beaten lists with the Falcon teamed up with wedge. I've beaten 4 ship build with 2 b, and others with Y. I've lost to and beaten a shuttle with tie swarm, and lost and win to a four ship build with a z95.

Point I'm making there is you don't need high ps to beat it, nor Falcons, they don't guarantee a win against it. Any list can beat it. Just know what to expect and adapt to it.

I really have to say those. Those that come on message boards and freak out at someone, or who contradicts literally in a post and then changes their tune not very mature.

I thought grown men and women would be responsible enough to to have a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong. Not everyone here is mature

To the Op. You snapped at everyone and contradict yourself. In one thread you freaked out at everyone and then asked the question when did I ever say it was broken?

Seriously you forgot the title of your thread already.

And to the other posts by others who just flipped out because someone calmly asks a question like "have you had experience with it " and you reply to shut your mouth...

Ya real manly. Pretty tough on a message board.

The type of people where if you were to be face to face your would probably cower because really man to man, don't have balls enough to act so tough, but on a message board you suddenly feel like a tough guy,so long as your safe at home.

My apologies to the rest of the community here for my rant.

I really enjoy this community,and for the most part have always found people here helpful and mature.

Lately however (especially in the last couple of days) I've been seeing more and more immature kids posting on here (not you op, but learning not to contradict yourself is a lesson learned) and I just had to get that off my chest

Look, when you see the Phantom literally rip up the opposing squad, I can see the knee jerk reaction. Seeing a Phantom kill nearly all the opposing squad, while not getting shot at is a sobering experience. The Phantom is a VERY powerful ship, but it is going to take time and experience or going with the lazy way of using the Falcon to fight it.

Suddenly, mighty Whisper Six is looking as tough as a Z-95.

In sorry but the very very few who have agreed with this post must just be players who either A) Don't like change because it the same old list they always

fly no longer works against a list with a Phantom on the board, or B) Can't deal with anything that is new or think out side the box.

If you guys had it your way the game would just stay the same and you can keep playing the same lists over and over again. Which is why thank god are not designers of this game.

The phantom is fine the way it is. It's not unbeatable, nor broken,and it doesn't need lists like wedge, Falcons, and turrets to beat it.

You just have to change your play style. But I guess those who don't like change are not going to like that.

I've beaten lists with the Falcon teamed up with wedge. I've beaten 4 ship build with 2 b, and others with Y. I've lost to and beaten a shuttle with tie swarm, and lost and win to a four ship build with a z95.

Point I'm making there is you don't need high ps to beat it, nor Falcons, they don't guarantee a win against it. Any list can beat it. Just know what to expect and adapt to it.

I really have to say those. Those that come on message boards and freak out at someone, or who contradicts literally in a post and then changes their tune not very mature.

I thought grown men and women would be responsible enough to to have a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong. Not everyone here is mature

To the Op. You snapped at everyone and contradict yourself. In one thread you freaked out at everyone and then asked the question when did I ever say it was broken?

Seriously you forgot the title of your thread already.

And to the other posts by others who just flipped out because someone calmly asks a question like "have you had experience with it " and you reply to shut your mouth...

Ya real manly. Pretty tough on a message board.

The type of people where if you were to be face to face your would probably cower because really man to man, don't have balls enough to act so tough, but on a message board you suddenly feel like a tough guy,so long as your safe at home.

My apologies to the rest of the community here for my rant.

I really enjoy this community,and for the most part have always found people here helpful and mature.

Lately however (especially in the last couple of days) I've been seeing more and more immature kids posting on here (not you op, but learning not to contradict yourself is a lesson learned) and I just had to get that off my chest

Call me crazy but it's possible that the ship just also happens to be under costed. It can be beatable but also under costed at the same time. If it is under costed the 4 attack dice play significantly into that.

Suddenly, mighty Whisper Six is looking as tough as a Z-95.

If you happened to guess the correct direction it was going to decloak...

It's a little late in the thread, but what the heck:

No.

This has been another edition of Short Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in next time...

I gotta disagree with Robert here. I'd say the phantom would be properly costed at 3 attack dice and is severely under costed at 4.

Suddenly, mighty Whisper Six is looking as tough as a Z-95.

If you happened to guess the correct direction it was going to decloak...

It would have to dodge every arc within Range 1-3 of the HWK. The beauty of Roark is that you know where it is before you pick which ship to pump up to PS12.

Suddenly, mighty Whisper Six is looking as tough as a Z-95.

If you happened to guess the correct direction it was going to decloak...

Guess it's a good thing it's the start of the COMBAT phase. Which means unless you fly horribly one ship is going to have it in its arc.

and finish the combo with swarm tactics and an ion turret and all of a sudden if whisper does re-cloak it won't be de-cloaking next turn.

It's a little late in the thread, but what the heck:

No.

This has been another edition of Short Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in next time...

I gotta disagree with Robert here. I'd say the phantom would be properly costed at 3 attack dice and is severely under costed at 4.

I think the problem is that, even on Vassal, no one is used to fighting Phantoms.

Those 4 dice come on a chassis that's only as strong as the Headhunter; at over twice the cost of a pair of TIE Fighters, it offers less durability. If it uses its signature action to improve its durability (hurray!) it turns off its attack and loses an action (awwww).

Of course you're probably talking about high-PS Phantoms with ACD, which can function as both a floor wax and a dessert topping as long as it (1) doesn't have stress, (2) doesn't have an ion token, and (3) isn't faced by an opponent that fires earlier. And I agree that against an unprepared or unlucky player, a 40-45 point Phantom can actually run the table.

But players won't be unprepared forever. It's a problem now because it's been dropped into a metagame that's dominated by large, mostly low-PS lists run close together, and it's a threat to those lists. But players will start running ions, stress, ships at PS8-12, ordnance, HLC, split opening deployments, and other elements that--alone or in combination--make life harder for the Phantom.

Call me crazy but it's possible that the ship just also happens to be under costed. It can be beatable but also under costed at the same time. If it is under costed the 4 attack dice play significantly into that.

Call me crazy but it's possible that the ship just also happens to be under costed. It can be beatable but also under costed at the same time. If it is under costed the 4 attack dice play significantly into that.

it may be slightly under costed however certainly not as bad as you claim since your suggestion it's properly costed as a 3 atk ship makes it more expensive then the interceptor with stealth device. Furthermore the only reliable phantom is whisper w several upgrades. This ship will hardly ever be spammed or a problem because of those issues. Nor is it a must take ship meaning it's not likely overpowered. I do believe 4 atk is extremely valuable even in a glass cannon it's also why I believe the yt2400 may also be under costed as a durable 4atk turret ship.

Echo> Whisper

why I believe the yt2400 may also be under costed as a durable 4atk turret ship.

Costs 13 points + the cost of the YT itself which is 37 for Dash Render and probably about 30ish for the base. You're looking at around 45-50 points for a 360 HLC. Can't critical hit and if you get to Range 1 it can't shoot you at all.

In sorry but the very very few who have agreed with this post must just be players who either A) Don't like change because it the same old list they always

fly no longer works against a list with a Phantom on the board, or B) Can't deal with anything that is new or think out side the box.

If you guys had it your way the game would just stay the same and you can keep playing the same lists over and over again. Which is why thank god are not designers of this game.

The phantom is fine the way it is. It's not unbeatable, nor broken,and it doesn't need lists like wedge, Falcons, and turrets to beat it.

You just have to change your play style. But I guess those who don't like change are not going to like that.

I've beaten lists with the Falcon teamed up with wedge. I've beaten 4 ship build with 2 b, and others with Y. I've lost to and beaten a shuttle with tie swarm, and lost and win to a four ship build with a z95.

Point I'm making there is you don't need high ps to beat it, nor Falcons, they don't guarantee a win against it. Any list can beat it. Just know what to expect and adapt to it.

I really have to say those. Those that come on message boards and freak out at someone, or who contradicts literally in a post and then changes their tune not very mature.

I thought grown men and women would be responsible enough to to have a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong. Not everyone here is mature

To the Op. You snapped at everyone and contradict yourself. In one thread you freaked out at everyone and then asked the question when did I ever say it was broken?

Seriously you forgot the title of your thread already.

And to the other posts by others who just flipped out because someone calmly asks a question like "have you had experience with it " and you reply to shut your mouth...

Ya real manly. Pretty tough on a message board.

The type of people where if you were to be face to face your would probably cower because really man to man, don't have balls enough to act so tough, but on a message board you suddenly feel like a tough guy,so long as your safe at home.

My apologies to the rest of the community here for my rant.

I really enjoy this community,and for the most part have always found people here helpful and mature.

Lately however (especially in the last couple of days) I've been seeing more and more immature kids posting on here (not you op, but learning not to contradict yourself is a lesson learned) and I just had to get that off my chest

Call me crazy but it's possible that the ship just also happens to be under costed. It can be beatable but also under costed at the same time. If it is under costed the 4 attack dice play significantly into that.

You have to take into account the upgrades which really ups the cost. 38-40+ is a lot for a ship with 2 hull and 2 shields.

Ive lost games with Echo just due to one mistake. Miss judge an asteroid, or the distance of another ship.

Literally cost me the game.

I had two tie fighters kill echo last night.

Howl with swarm tactics.

First tie rolls two dice I roll two blanks. Howl rolled 2 hits, I rolled two blanks plus I had a focus and a dead echo.

Since echo had veteran instincts I fired back. Rolled 4 hits and a crit. He rolled 3 evades. Howl 1 echo 0.

That was actually a very closet game and a very fun game

Point is my opponent guessed where I was going and it paid off for him.

No need for Turrets, or ion.

And for the points a Phantom with just a couple upgrades is not cheap.

I been liking echo very much.

I haven't tried whisper yet. That 2 bank really makes getting around nasty. I'll have to play with Whisper one of these days soon

Sorry gungo, but echo is just as good or maybe even better than Whisper. Add I've only ever practice with Whisper and never played him echo is a lot harder to predict and can zip around on the board in ways no other ship currently can

Echo> whisper

Call me crazy but it's possible that the ship just also happens to be under costed. It can be beatable but also under costed at the same time. If it is under costed the 4 attack dice play significantly into that.

A whisper with ACD ticks in at 36 points. The most expensive A-wing 26. That's ten additional points for 1 attack and the ability to cloak reliably while having 1 less PS. Undercosted is not the word I'd use.

Really, the main problem here is that most people are used to running low-PS lists, which the Phantom excels against. When facing a high PS list the usefulness of the Phantom's cloak gets halved, along with their survivability. Probably even more than halved since high-PS ships come with abilities. At 4 THP, an X-wing at range 1 can one-shot a Phantom, with pilots like Wes or Wedge reducing the Phantom's survivability even more by taking way another agility or evade/focus token respectively.

I would like to see the Phantom perform consistently well against high PS lists before I call undercosted or OP.

Ok, let's change the question a bit, what Rebel ship will end up getting 4 attack dice to balance this situation out?

Even if "Whisper" or "Echo" would finally be amongst the top meta of this game (yes only those 2 because we are not talking about the Phantom as such here but about those 2 with VI and Adv. cloak) i would not mind it.

I am certainly not what you would consider an imperial player, but i reckon that imp side would need something competitive besides Swarm and 3 bounty hunters...

In fact this is also finally an imperial counter to swarms! Because with 2 attack dice on a Tie Fighter it will definitely be difficult to hit the Phantom! The other way round they can eat Howlrunner alive. And i consider that a great thing honestly! Variety is good.

Also even if it was near as good as you say here you still need huge amounts of skill and luck to get away with a 4 hitpoint 40+ point ship. And that's also fine with me. If you play well and roll well, you will also do at least as good with any other imperial high agility build. So that's not exclusive to Whisper and Echo.

On a sidenote: Talking about the 4 dice Turret Rebels will get... Yes they will, unique for 12 points and then, you can't fireat range 1 at all anymore. I suppose you all realized that. Outrider says you can't use primary weapons and HLC is range 2-3. I am not so sure if i am willing to make that sacrifice really. Also with an ion cannon, it's kinda silly because you pay 8 points for a weapon a Y-wing pays 5 for, and you sacrifice your primary! Okay you get range 3 shots but still only one damage per turn for such an expensive ship. Meh

I am always amazed how brutally dismissive and pointlessly aggressive people are on this forum. I don't see anything that was stated in the OP as unreasonable. He is concerned that giving the ship a primary attack value of 4 was a mistake. Given that this is the first ship to have that, how on Earth does his concern justify the mini fits of the internet tough guys?

That said, the OP is wrong. It is not a mistake. Keep in mind that the phantom pays a ton of points for its cloaking potential. This potential is wothless if the ship is not pilotted with a high level of care and skill. Also, every opponent has access to ion weapons, which are great against the phantom and useful against any other ship. A single ion token will result in the phantom's inevitable demise unless you opponent is severely out of position. Like the interceptor, the phantom's biggerst weakness will always be it high cost compared to its fragility.

I don't know how mush you have played with this ship and I won't, unlike many others, assume that you didn't spend the time to form an educated opinion. But, I will echo (get it?) their belief that the game will even out once the community at large become aquainted with the ship.

In general: no nothing wrong with 4 attack dice, and powerful cloak / decloak mechanics. Paper/rock/scissors is generally good, and the Phantom also rewards higher player skill.

That said, cost is the great equalizer. So if it's unbalanced, it's an issue of cost.

It's a little late in the thread, but what the heck:

No.

This has been another edition of Short Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in next time...

I gotta disagree with Robert here. I'd say the phantom would be properly costed at 3 attack dice and is severely under costed at 4.

Interesting take.

Lets compare these 2, since they are the most similar. 2 hull and shields behind 2 agility is about exactly the same durability, or a hair higher, than 3 hull behind 3 agility. So that much is a wash. Going from 3 attack dice to 4 attack dice increases average damage (cross the entire meta game) by about 50%. That should, in theory, justify about a 25% point increase. 20*1.25 = 25. So all else being equal, the price is spot on. And the raw jousting numbers based on just the stat line match this, the Interceptor is around 88% - 91% as efficient as a TIE Fighter (meta dependent), and the TIE Phantom is around 85% - 91%. So they are very close, with a very slight edge going to the TIE Interceptor because I am basing this off of the PS1 equivalent cost, which makes the Phantom look proportionately slightly more expensive.

But, we need to look at the intangibles. The Phantom:

• has a slightly worse dial
• loses the boost action
• gains the cloaking action
• gains the system upgrade slot
• gains a crew slot

Collectively that's certainly worth a couple points. The cloak action is easily better than the boost action, and the very slight dial downgrade is easily offset by the upgrade slots. I'm just spitballing here without ever having played the ship yet, but the TIE Phantom is probably undercosted relative to the TIE Interceptor by about 2 points. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it would be balanced at its current cost if it had 3 attack instead of 4, but again I haven't played with the ship yet so I don't have a good feel for the intangibles. If it was perfectly costed with 3 attack dice at 25 points at PS3, then with 4 dice it would be worth about 30-31 points at PS3. The ship is very good, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

The real issue though are the high PS + VI + Advanced Cloaking, which doubles the durability of the ship. The raw PS1 equivalent jousting value then increases to a whopping 105%, although this is offset by having to dump 8-10 points (relative to a fictitious 23 point PS1 Phantom) into the PS bid.

I do think the TIE Phantom is a flat-out better ship than the TIE Interceptor for high PS options. The Phantom's brute force jousting value is essentially the same as a squint's, making it even more of a glass cannon but with the same overall efficiency. I think we'll see some Elite Interceptor builds shift towards Phantoms instead. I think the "standard" 3 ship Imperial glass cannon build is basically going to look like:

99 points

Whisper + VI + ACD + Recon Spec (40)

Soontir + PtL (30)

Carnor Jax + PtL (29)

Save one point for initiative so you fire first vs PS9's. You lose some durability on Soontir and Jax, but Whisper is absolutely terrifying. Whisper will be putting 5 dice on a target at range 1, and Jax will prevent them from spending a focus / evade. Against a 3 agility target with focus on offense, that's an average of 2.63 damage. In ONE shot. You have a 56% chance of doing 3+ damage, so if its a TIE Fighter or naked squint, you're actually more likely than not to one-shot it. This is the reason that I feel like FCS may be a waste on the Phantom, because by the time the rest of your squad piles on and attacks the same target, it'll be dead in one round anyway! Even a B-wing is probably going to fall, taking an average of 8.6 hits if all 3 of your ships are at range 1.

I am always amazed how brutally dismissive and pointlessly aggressive people are on this forum. I don't see anything that was stated in the OP as unreasonable. He is concerned that giving the ship a primary attack value of 4 was a mistake. Given that this is the first ship to have that, how on Earth does his concern justify the mini fits of the internet tough guys?

That said, the OP is wrong. It is not a mistake. Keep in mind that the phantom pays a ton of points for its cloaking potential. This potential is wothless if the ship is not pilotted with a high level of care and skill. Also, every opponent has access to ion weapons, which are great against the phantom and useful against any other ship. A single ion token will result in the phantom's inevitable demise unless you opponent is severely out of position. Like the interceptor, the phantom's biggerst weakness will always be it high cost compared to its fragility.

I don't know how mush you have played with this ship and I won't, unlike many others, assume that you didn't spend the time to form an educated opinion. But, I will echo (get it?) their belief that the game will even out once the community at large become aquainted with the ship.

In his second /third post he gets snappy at some because he doesn't like their response, but then goes on to contradict himself.

The title of the thread and his Original post he basically says that it's broken, and when you read it, along with the title feels as though it was a mistake by ffg.

Only to Change his story and back peddle in the next page.

So if he didn't think so, then why start the topic.

What I didn't like was his tone with others as at the sameme time contradict himself.

I am always amazed how brutally dismissive and pointlessly aggressive people are on this forum. I don't see anything that was stated in the OP as unreasonable. He is concerned that giving the ship a primary attack value of 4 was a mistake. Given that this is the first ship to have that, how on Earth does his concern justify the mini fits of the internet tough guys?

First, a lot of people are reacting to the OP's recent posting history as much as the content of the post itself.

Second, the OP asks in the thread title whether it's a mistake, strongly implies in the topic post that it is a mistake, and then when faced with criticism, said "hey, I'm just asking the question!"

To draw an analogy, you could write a news article under the headline "Is The President an Alien?", strongly imply that he's only half-human and was actually born as an experiment in the immediate aftermath of the Area 51 incident, and then when people (justifiably) point out that you're either an idiot or clinically insane, pretend you never made a claim and are just trying to start a conversation. What's more, you're now the victim of all of these unprovoked personal attacks, just for asking a question! Why are your political enemies deliberately misreading your piece? Why is everyone trying to shut down the debate? Help, help, I'm being repressed! Come see the violence inherent in the system!

It's a rhetorical strategy that relies on your audience to fill in the blanks for you while you remain technically on the unprovable side of slander or libel, and it's pretty commonly employed (Google "daily show cavuto mark") but still pretty transparently dishonest--and when relied upon as a legalistic defense of your actions in a no-stakes online forum argument, it's just silly. That's what people are irritated about, or at any rate what I'm irritated about.

I don't know how mush you have played with this ship and I won't, unlike many others, assume that you didn't spend the time to form an educated opinion...

I agree with your reasoning overall, but again I think you're giving the OP too much credit. He could be a playtester, but given his position on the issue that seems unlikely. He could have been playing extensively on Vassal, which is a weaker claim but more plausible, except that he doesn't cite any examples. What's much more likely is that he's had a handful of games since he or a friend picked up a Phantom at Imdaar Alpha, and on the basis of those anecdotes he's extrapolated to the idea that the Phantom is a mistake.

EDIT: Looked over the thread again and realized he said he does play mainly on Vassal. Which gives me a whole bunch of other questions, but I'll say this: most players on Vassal are positively marinating in the current metagame. And that's not a bad thing, but the issue with the Phantom is that is going to be destructive to the current metagame, because it's going to require a strategic and tactical approach that has really only been seen with Fel+PTL+Stealth before, and Fel's trick isn't nearly as good as Echo's. But that doesn't make it a mistake.