<shrug>

I think a Rebel shuttle Tyderium is more important than a third faction that shares other ships. Until that happens, I just don't see any potential third faction sharing existing ships. Which makes it an EU only faction. Now, as much as I love the EU, I'm not blind to the fact that there is mixed reception to EU content. I just don't think an EU only faction would justify its existence with sales or gameplay.

I, also, want/wanted a Rebel shuttle Tyderium, but here's the thing; yes, the shuttle's ONLY appearance in the movies (prior to Special Ed) was the Tyderium, BUT it's an IMPERIAL shuttle.

The thing with ships like this is that they aren't really combat ships. The Rebel shuttle happens in the computer games, sure and I'd be fine with seeing it. But the Tyderium's whole mission would just be, "Get this thing we stole back to a capital ship!"

Similarly, third faction ships would just be trying to get their spice to the other side of the board without getting boarded. They are, for the most part, rum runners. The pirates wouldn't be attacking Imperials, and, for the most part, they wouldn't be attacking Rebels. I'm assuming the Rebels would be trying to avoid EVERYONE while avoiding the Empire and that they would be sending out convoys and so forth prepared to fight or avoid the Imperial Fleet, so pirates and rum runners would be no problem for them to handle by either outrunning or outgunning them.

To include the Tyderium or the Fringe guys in this manner would fly in the face of the source material.

The pirates wouldn't be attacking Imperials, and, for the most part, they wouldn't be attacking Rebels. I'm assuming the Rebels would be trying to avoid EVERYONE while avoiding the Empire and that they would be sending out convoys and so forth prepared to fight or avoid the Imperial Fleet, so pirates and rum runners would be no problem for them to handle by either outrunning or outgunning them.

Pirates wouldn't attack Imperials, but Imperials would attack pirates. The rebels might also attack pirates in order to gain legitimacy in sectors where the Empire does a poor (if any) job establishing law and order.

The pirates wouldn't be attacking Imperials, and, for the most part, they wouldn't be attacking Rebels. I'm assuming the Rebels would be trying to avoid EVERYONE while avoiding the Empire and that they would be sending out convoys and so forth prepared to fight or avoid the Imperial Fleet, so pirates and rum runners would be no problem for them to handle by either outrunning or outgunning them.

Pirates wouldn't attack Imperials, but Imperials would attack pirates. The rebels might also attack pirates in order to gain legitimacy in sectors where the Empire does a poor (if any) job establishing law and order.

This is all true and you make good points. There's just one thing:

In both situations, either the Rebels or imperials would not attack the Fringers with anything other than an overwhelming force. They have the resources, why wouldn't they use them?

So, again, I don't think it translates to this particular game well.

This is all true and you make good points. There's just one thing:

In both situations, either the Rebels or imperials would not attack the Fringers with anything other than an overwhelming force. They have the resources, why wouldn't they use them?

So, again, I don't think it translates to this particular game well.

Okay, but by that argument you could say that the Empire would never attack anything without an overwhelming force. So, if that argument invalidates Empire/rebels vs. pirates, it also invalidates Empire vs. rebels.

Can you be happy using the Firespray, YTs, HWK, etc as unaffiliated ships in house rules? Must FFG release a third faction that everyone else has to deal with?

I just think it would be a great way for them to put more fringy ships out there, which also double as civilian/on-combatant ships as plot devices in missions.

Sithborg, others, and I have asked no less than four times already, and I don't believe anyone has answered yet: how does a third faction introduce fringe ships in a way that the current Imperial/Rebel dichotomy does not? If bounty hunters were released with Imperials and smugglers with Rebels as has already been done, how is this in any way inferior to creating a third faction just for them?

Can you be happy using the Firespray, YTs, HWK, etc as unaffiliated ships in house rules? Must FFG release a third faction that everyone else has to deal with?

I just think it would be a great way for them to put more fringy ships out there, which also double as civilian/on-combatant ships as plot devices in missions.

Sithborg, others, and I have asked no less than four times already, and I don't believe anyone has answered yet: how does a third faction introduce fringe ships in a way that the current Imperial/Rebel dichotomy does not? If bounty hunters were released with Imperials and smugglers with Rebels as has already been done, how is this in any way inferior to creating a third faction just for them?

That is a good point, and I did intend to think about it more earlier, but then got caught up with Wonder. You also had a good point that in house rules one could make factions as one pleases.

I suppose that there's no reason why it could not work for there to be more fringe ships with black and red dials, just as there are now, and soon to be one more. When'n'if I get around to introducing pirates to my narrative campaign, I'll have no reservations about using Firesprays and Z-95s in the pirate forces, even without dark yellow dials (my suggested color for the Fringe, just like in Empire at War).

So, as long as they introduce fringy ships, I'm happy.

I guess what I find a little annoying (and my annoyance is not an overriding factor for anything), is that I think it dilutes the Rebel and Imperial factions. I just have a hard time seeing the Empire calling on bounty hunters to fight their battles for them. Calling on bounty hunters to track down wayward rebel ships, for certain, but not as auxiliaries to their regular forces in combat. I guess that I agree with Piett, when he said the Empire doesn't need that scum.

Okay, so now the flip question: why are you all so afraid of a third faction as a vehicle for those fringy ships? It doesn't imply three-way games (though, the current rules of the game don't preclude a combat-à-trois), just another color on the dials and design on the back of pilot cards. If that would make a certain number of fans happy, why would you have their joy denied?

First, I separate the want for the ships from the want of a separate faction. There are still a ton of ships I want to see. And I trust FFG's love of the EU (seriously, they made a card in the LCG from something that only exists as a toy). They will go deep. They are starting to release ships that I don't necessarily know, in the Phantom and Decimator.

I am not opposed to a third faction based on it creating an imbalance in the game. What I'm worried about is that the third faction will be fundamentally lagging behind in terms of releases. FFG is not going to stop releasing stuff for the Rebels and Imperials, so even with a change to the number of ships per wave, they are going to be lagging behind the other factions in terms of diversity of options (let's turn those Imperial fan complaints up to 11, now shall we). I love the squad building options we are getting now. Why would I want to go to a faction that has half the number of available ships, and likely significantly less pilots. Why would FFG want to gimp that faction, when they can easily be folded into the existing factions.

I like faction uniqueness. So many are saying that adding existing ships to this theoretical faction will solve the problem. I don't think ship sharing is a good idea. It may seem fun to you, but it makes the choice of faction less important. This is a big issue for Attack Wing. The sort of cross combinations that you can do fundamentally separates the game from the theme. While I would like the Rebel Tyderium, I'm fine with it not being in the game, because I think it makes it a better game. Choosing a faction restricts some of the options you can do. And as much as many do love the EU, I think it is pretty obvious that an EU ship only faction, as I don't see ship sharing happening any time soon, will not sell as well, since it would keep out movie only players and faction only players. There is also the issue that if you want to play this new faction, the core becomes an annoying purchase, as it gives you very little to use in terms of pilots and upgrades.

And in the end, most of these ships and pilots can easily fit into the existing factions.

Thanks for your input.

If that would make a certain number of fans happy, why would you have their joy denied?

I'm happy to oblige. Thanks for enumerating your points. That will make them easier to discuss.

First , do no harm. The two faction format isn't broken and the three faction format, as far as I can tell doesn't add anything.

Aha, the hippocratic oath. This mirrors the arguments of those on my side, who argue that maintaining what is will lead to stagnation. I can see both sides of that particular argument, but neither of these arguments is particularly convincing. We simply don't know enough about how the game would develop. I guess it depends on FFG's skill in evolving the game, and the customer base's need for new stuff. As it is, the game is developing.

But tell me, was there a debate about huge ships before they came out, and on what side of the pro/con huge argument were you, if you participated in such a debate? Do you oppose all change based on the unknown possibilities that change could bring?

I don't support change for change's sake. I just see this particular change as a greater likelihood that I'll get what I want, with few (IMV) risks. Ok course, I could be wrong.

Second , a third faction restricts purchase. Some players choose only one faction or another due to limited funds. They might buy a single Firespray if they're a committed Imperial player, to supplement their fleet, but wouldn't otherwise buy enough units to have not just a viable 100-point build, but several unique builds.

It may restrict purchases, if a number of assumptions holds. These assumptions strike me as being the following:

• The assumption of fixed supply
• The assumption of fixed demand

Supply

It seems to me that if FFG sees greater demand for their product, they will ramp up their supply. I think we already see that happening with the more rapid introduction of 'waves'. It also seems to me that the whole notion of 'wave' is a bit obsolete, even if they're still holding on to the name.

Now, here's a good point: if they ramp up supply will they maintain quality of concept? Will the new things they pump out be of the same quality as what drew us to the game in the first place? I don't know, but this question is neutral to faction. They could push a bunch of tripe even in just two factions, unless they put in place measures to make sure that their quality is not diluted.

Demand

You're right that many players have only limited funds. On the other hand, there are players who buy up 12 of anything they can get their hands on. On the side of the latter group, this is not a question of how many factions, it's a question of the quantity of supply, which is separate from the number of factions being supplied for.

On the limited funds side of the population, however - assuming if the amount of supply is not determined by the number of factions - they don't have as much to buy, if 1/3 of the product available is for their faction than if 1/2 of the product available is for their faction.

Third , additional factions limit those ships to just those factions. You can't use an X-Wing in an Imperial squad because it's not part of their identity. That makes sense. But FFG had put the Firespray, YT-1300, HWK, Z-95, etc, into a Fringe faction, then neither Imperial nor Rebel player would ever have a chance to use them in builds. Or FFG would make them available to both, which dilutes their identity even more.

Okay, this is a nature of the Star Wars universe question. I assume you care about this game being faithful enough to the Star Wars Universe to both reflect the drama and flavor of it, while also having a playable game. If so, that makes two of us, and I do think that the Firespray dilutes the Imperial identity. That said, I'm glad they introduced it. It just feels odd with an Imperial dial and the Imperial symbol on the back of the cards.

The nature of the Galactic Civil War is one in which the Empire has a fairly rigid military-industrial complex, whereas the rebels fly whatever they can get their hands on, because they are a rebellion. They do have Incom, which supplies them with the X-Wing, and later in the war they get dedicated manufacturers of the A-Wing and the B-Wing. 4 years after the battle of Endor, they also have the E-Wing. But, other than that, Y-Wings and Z-95 Pre-Empire craft, The YTs and HWKs were built for the private market, and ARE fringe ships.

That said, the Rebel Alliance do seem to try to act like have a regular miitary, with ranks uniforms, etc. In that sense, they're trying to use the symbols of a professional military in the pursuit of legitimacy. They're very much like George Washington in the American Revolution in that regard. Of course, at the same time the rebellion has to be practical.

Pirates and smugglers have no regard for embracing the trappings of legitimacy. They're as illegitimate as any bastard child, and they're quite happy about that. It would be nice to see a braod range of hodge-podge ships for the fringe.

That said, I do think a counter argument would be that in order to create that flavor FFG would have to create a very broad range of ships. At the same time, they could just make fringe cards for Y-Wings, Z-95s, HWKs and Firesprays. Does that make the rebels less unique - sure, but they should be until they develop the dedicated fighters, being the X, A, and B.

Fourth, the beauty, to me, of the mythos of Star Wars is that it's this simplified sci-fi fantasy. It's black and white, good and evil. There is little room for gray, which is why even guys like Han get swept up into one side or another.

Well, that is a matter of individual taste. The movies certainly don't impose that manichean worldview on you. Sure, Han gets dragged into the rebellion, Lando gets screwed by the Empire, and Boba Fett is hired by Vader, but the fringe is a definite part of galactic society.

Also, when Star Wars came out, we were still in the Cold War, in which the President of the United States called the Soviet Union an evil empire. We live in a different world now. You might want your fiction to divorce you from reality. I like it as an interesting alternative way in which to think about reality in a metaphoric way. Lucas claims he was channeling both Vietnam and WWII, and later said that you could read the 2000s into the prequels as well. Let's not go down that debate, other than to illustrate how both sides have a point to make. Neither of which is necessarily a argument for or against why FFG should or should not introduce a fringe into the game.

Anyway.... wow.... that was epic.

I'm going to go put my upgrade cards into sleeves now.

I'm happy to oblige. Thanks for enumerating your points. That will make them easier to discuss.

First , do no harm. The two faction format isn't broken and the three faction format, as far as I can tell doesn't add anything.

Aha, the hippocratic oath. This mirrors the arguments of those on my side, who argue that maintaining what is will lead to stagnation. I can see both sides of that particular argument, but neither of these arguments is particularly convincing. We simply don't know enough about how the game would develop. I guess it depends on FFG's skill in evolving the game, and the customer base's need for new stuff. As it is, the game is developing.

But tell me, was there a debate about huge ships before they came out, and on what side of the pro/con huge argument were you, if you participated in such a debate? Do you oppose all change based on the unknown possibilities that change could bring?

I don't support change for change's sake. I just see this particular change as a greater likelihood that I'll get what I want, with few (IMV) risks. Ok course, I could be wrong.

For those of us who aren't averse to change, but merely loathe to change what already works, why not wait until the game is actually trending downward before affecting something as different as a third faction?

For those of us who aren't averse to change, but merely loathe to change what already works, why not wait until the game is actually trending downward before affecting something as different as a third faction?

Fair enough.

So, should they have not done the huge ships, in your opinion?

For those of us who aren't averse to change, but merely loathe to change what already works, why not wait until the game is actually trending downward before affecting something as different as a third faction?

Fair enough.

So, should they have not done the huge ships, in your opinion?

They're a bit superfluous, but the fact that their only impact is on a completely different format means that I can keep playing the "6-A-100-P-DM" game unimpeded. I'm okay with them.

There's a lot of potential in X-Wing to keep things interesting for the long term. There are all sorts of mechanics that can still be introduced and enough room for multiple factions to have their own unique flavor to them.

Forget about a 3rd faction.

Let's talk 4th, 5th and 6th faction:

1. Hutt Kajidics
2. Black Sun Syndicate
3. Corporate Sector Authority
4. Mandalorians

+Mercenaries (Can be hired by any Faction or be their own faction)

And to evolve it even further,

• Themed forces for all 7 factions

For those of us who aren't averse to change, but merely loathe to change what already works, why not wait until the game is actually trending downward before affecting something as different as a third faction?

Fair enough.

So, should they have not done the huge ships, in your opinion?

They're a bit superfluous, but the fact that their only impact is on a completely different format means that I can keep playing the "6-A-100-P-DM" game unimpeded. I'm okay with them.

You've been active here longer. Was there a debate about huge before they were announced. If so, did you object to huge ships then?

If so, could it not easily be that your fears for a third faction are similarly overblown?

There's a lot of potential in X-Wing to keep things interesting for the long term. There are all sorts of mechanics that can still be introduced and enough room for multiple factions to have their own unique flavor to them.

Forget about a 3rd faction.

Let's talk 4th, 5th and 6th faction:

1. Hutt Kajidics
2. Black Sun Syndicate
3. Corporate Sector Authority
4. Mandalorians

+Mercenaries (Can be hired by any Faction or be their own faction)

And to evolve it even further,

• Themed forces for all 7 factions

Uh... while I like your spirit for fleshing out the game (you forgot the Hapans and the Ssi Ruuk, or whatever they were called), I'm not sure I would follow you that far.

Of course, you may be just bringing this up in order to make the reduction-to-the-absurd argument.

I like the huge ships, if nothing else for the epic game play (exclusively now), upgrade cards, and the cool models.

I like the huge ships, if nothing else for the epic game play (exclusively now), upgrade cards, and the cool models.

Cool. I do too. I want to get some epic games in.

But, did you also make the case against those before they came out? They seem like they could potentially be a greater complication to the status quo than the introduction of a third faction would be, especially if that third factions uses a number of already existing ships, but then with faction-specific pilot cards.

I like the huge ships, if nothing else for the epic game play (exclusively now), upgrade cards, and the cool models.

Cool. I do too. I want to get some epic games in.

But, did you also make the case against those before they came out? They seem like they could potentially be a greater complication to the status quo that the introduction of a third faction would be, especially if that third factions uses a number of already existing ships, but then with faction-specific pilot cards.

Please tell me how that's even possible.

Quick note: there are already people buying a single faction. Yes, they may be missing key cards (ptl and adv sensors) though ffg has shown willingness to provide those (imp aces and Ewing )

There are some people who will only join the game when pilot a or b shows up, not necessitating a faction, but I have a hard time imagining a third faction would harm the game.

I like the huge ships, if nothing else for the epic game play (exclusively now), upgrade cards, and the cool models.

Cool. I do too. I want to get some epic games in.

But, did you also make the case against those before they came out? They seem like they could potentially be a greater complication to the status quo that the introduction of a third faction would be, especially if that third factions uses a number of already existing ships, but then with faction-specific pilot cards.

Please tell me how that's even possible.

I'm not sure what aspect you're asking clarification on.

Please tell me how the introduction of the huge ships could possibly be a "greater complication to the status quo than the introduction of a third faction".

Please tell me how the introduction of the huge ships could possibly be a "greater complication to the status quo than the introduction of a third faction".

There was the argument made that both the Rebel Transport and Corvette containing crew, modifications and pilots that can be used in the 100 point game as well as Epic could negatively affect those who didn't want to/couldn't afford to buy the Epic scale ships.

Wes Tarn, Hobbie and Jek (and many useful droids), are only available to those who buy the Rebel Transport.

C3-PO and Han Solo to those who buy a Corvette.

A lot of people voiced concerns about this, and that it might continue.

Please tell me how the introduction of the huge ships could possibly be a "greater complication to the status quo than the introduction of a third faction".

There was the argument made that both the Rebel Transport and Corvette containing crew, modifications and pilots that can be used in the 100 point game as well as Epic could negatively affect those who didn't want to/couldn't afford to buy the Epic scale ships.

Wes Tarn, Hobbie and Jek (and many useful droids), are only available to those who buy the Rebel Transport.

C3-PO and Han Solo to those who buy a Corvette.

A lot of people voiced concerns about this, and that it might continue.

Those concerns never occurred to me, but are certainly valid. Of course the same argument could be said for any unit people don't want to buy, but has upgrade cards that they want.

Exactly - but the higher the physical cost of the model, the more problematic it becomes. There's a huge difference between an upgrade only being available on a $100 ship than with a $10 ship. There are plenty of Rebel players who were frustrated they had to buy Lambda Shuttles if they wanted to field Advanced Sensors on a B-Wing (and there'll probably be quite a few upset that having bought 4 Shuttles they can now get that upgrade on an E-Wing for half the price).

I'm sure there'll be a lot of people buying TIE Defenders almost purely for the Predator and Outmanuever cards as well.

There are ways for FFG to get around this limitation (should they want to of course), upgrade card booster packs being one of them. And I still much prefer the current system to ships being sold with a random assortment of cards...

Was there a debate about huge before they were announced. If so, did you object to huge ships then?

If so, could it not easily be that your fears for a third faction are similarly overblown?

I've been here for some time, but only for about a year or so for X-Wing. In that time I honestly don't remember seeing any debates on if there should be Huge ships or not. Mostly I think because FFG had said at one point they weren't going to do them, so there was nothing to debate. The announcement of the CR-90 and GR-75 came as a bit of a shock.

Myself I wouldn't of been against them, not if it was known that they'd be part of the Epic Rules set, because that means they don't effect the base game. I did think having all those X-Wing pilots in the Transport was a wise business choice but not a super player friendly one. I can see why some would be unhappy with having to spend $40 to $60 for a alt paint X-Wing, some pilots and other upgrades.

I'm not even really dead set against a 3rd faction X-Wing, I just don't see it having much value. At least not enough value to make it worth FFG's time to put one out.

IMO a 3rd faction for the sake of it, is a bit like adding 10 levels to the cap in a MMO. They're doing it not because it makes the game better, but because that's what everyone else does.

If someone can list things a 3rd faction offers, that is a true improvement to the game, that more ships for the existing factions don't, then I'd like to hear it. But so far the only two things I've heard are...

1) It would stop the game from becoming stagnant... Which is a huge assumption, and not even all that logically sound.

2) Would offer a faction that plays differently then the existing two. Which is far to vague to be really useful as an argument. Especially given how blurred the differences between the two factions are becoming.