Complaints that a new faction will imbalance the game show so much faith in the designers... Starcraft has three factions and balances out just fine.

Shared units offers a lot of fixes we've all been wanting.

Want a Rebel Bomb Dropper. Oh look, the Firespray.

Want an Imperial Turret Ship. That Mercenary y-Wing that lost its R2 slot for a crew slot.

Etc.(Although please don't do this. The Doom-Y would be a way too funny to look at. But as a nuetral faction ship it could easily be limited to neutral crew only.

So, you are against factions being unique? Sounds to me like you would rather there be not factions at all. Or be like Attack Wing.

So, you are against factions being unique? Sounds to me like you would rather there be not factions at all. Or be like Attack Wing.

The important part of the factions is that the names keep consistant with the Universe.

Black Sun Agent in a Hawk could be a fully legitimite generic though. And it might add something to the game.

Faction Free games don't destroy balance.

Faction Free games are designed that way from the start though. I'd feel safe in assuming that FFG didn't consider how balanced the Firespray or YT-1300 is when mixed with ships from the other faction because that's not allowed.

So while I know if neutral ships would break the game or not, just saying other games have done it isn't really a valid point.

Starcraft which you pointed out has 3, started with 3, so it was balanced for 3. XWM was started with 2 and was balanced for 2. Adding a 3rd one to XWM is inherently risky because adding a new faction is always inherently risky.

Faction Free games don't destroy balance.

Faction Free games are designed that way from the start though. I'd feel safe in assuming that FFG didn't consider how balanced the Firespray or YT-1300 is when mixed with ships from the other faction because that's not allowed.So while I know if neutral ships would break the game or not, just saying other games have done it isn't really a valid point.Starcraft which you pointed out has 3, started with 3, so it was balanced for 3. XWM was started with 2 and was balanced for 2. Adding a 3rd one to XWM is inherently risky becaua se adding a new faction is always inherently risky.

The character and squadron name disparity should stay. That doesn't mean ships can't cross boundaries.

If they make a third faction I would do it on own, not to be used by the other 2 factions. This way each faction sort of has its own identity.

Rebels for the most part are shields and action passing (i know y-wing and hwk)

Imperials are for the most part arc dancing and speed (i know lamdba and wave 5)

Fringers can be guns and modifications

Could be very interesting.

If they make a third faction I would do it on own, not to be used by the other 2 factions. This way each faction sort of has its own identity.

Rebels for the most part are shields and action passing (i know y-wing and hwk)

Imperials are for the most part arc dancing and speed (i know lamdba and wave 5)

Fringers can be guns and modifications

Could be very interesting.

That is very true. I am blessed with a lot of disposable income and I realize that not everyone else is. Another thing that FFG needs to do by branching into different factions, is reduce the need for certain upgrade cards. This is the big problem in the game.

Stuff like PTL was the premium choice EPT for a long time. And it only came on the A-Wing. If we could move away from must have upgrades and cards to everything is good and you are spoiled for choice, the need to buy 1+ of everything would diminish. Of course this then would hurt FFGs sales.

The other way of looking at it is, when a new faction comes out, you dont have to buy multiples of everything that is new. I think FFG realize this, as they are not a stupid company (to succeed in a highly competitive niche market such as board games and table top wargames one of the main requirements is not to be stupid).

Like I said, if I were FFG, I would release half wave "Aces Boxes." Something like a repainted HWK + Ywing + Z-95 and include third faction only cards in it (pilots + upgrades). This way its much easier to jump into a new faction, as most people already have one of those ships (yes I know the z-95 is not out officially). Then they can for a wave or two release 2 new fringer ships in the normal wave along with 1 to each Rebel and Imperial. Then when they have enough ships (and I am ok with them always being behind in release numbers), FFG goes back to an even ship distribution, or even introduces a fourth faction! Muhahaha!

I can't see how that would kill the game, and making the upgrades faction only would not necessitate that everyone runs out and buys it to stay competitive. It wouldnt ruin one on one games. I honestly dont see a problem with that.

Its a Usual Suspects reference and a good one at that.

Well played Sir, a tip of my hat for that one!

I saw, "Convince me" and instantly heard David Kujan saying "tell me every last detail".

I've seen that movie more times than any person probably should.

Anyway, to answer your question honestly, it's not just the addition of a third faction to the a two faction game that causes problems.

As I've previously stated, I played Star Wars Miniatures. From the beginning, there was a "Fringe" faction that could be played with either Imperial or Rebel teams. (And later with Vong, CIS, Republic, etc.) This lead to Fringe characters being used to "break the game" by having them on teams out of their era for the purposes of some gimmick or other that totally ignored the property on which the game was based and instead made the game about statistics.

HeroClix, another game I've played, has had the same problem from the start. Not because of a "third faction" but because of poor balance presumably because of bad (or no) playtesting data usage.

Yeah, this is already going on in X-Wing to some extent from what I can gather by reading on here.

But in comparison to the other games I've played (BattleDroids, Battletech, Hero Quest, Talisman, Battle of Five Armies, HeroClix, HorrorClix, Pirates!, ActionClix, Star Wars Miniatures, Monsterpocalypse, etc) the balance in X-Wing seems really well maintained and it keeps statistic based team building to a minimum allowing for those of us who play based on mythos or some other such focus to still enjoy playing in almost any environment.

As to the price of getting new players into the game, I have little to no concern. I got enough of each ship to do 100pts of each (8 TIEs, 4 X-wings, etc) because I love swarms and because, to me, this game is just a combination of recreating my Kenner collection from the 70s and 80s, and an homage to X-wing, the computer game series, which is probably also just because of my old Kenner toys.

I wouldn't expect anyone else to spend that much getting into the game, and have little to no idea what would be considered a good entry level amount of ships and/or how much that would cost.

Its a Usual Suspects reference and a good one at that.

Well played Sir, a tip of my hat for that one!

I saw, "Convince me" and instantly heard David Kujan saying "tell me every last detail".

I've seen that movie more times than any person probably should.

Anyway, to answer your question honestly, it's not just the addition of a third faction to the a two faction game that causes problems.

As I've previously stated, I played Star Wars Miniatures. From the beginning, there was a "Fringe" faction that could be played with either Imperial or Rebel teams. (And later with Vong, CIS, Republic, etc.) This lead to Fringe characters being used to "break the game" by having them on teams out of their era for the purposes of some gimmick or other that totally ignored the property on which the game was based and instead made the game about statistics.

HeroClix, another game I've played, has had the same problem from the start. Not because of a "third faction" but because of poor balance presumably because of bad (or no) playtesting data usage.

Yeah, this is already going on in X-Wing to some extent from what I can gather by reading on here.

But in comparison to the other games I've played (BattleDroids, Battletech, Hero Quest, Talisman, Battle of Five Armies, HeroClix, HorrorClix, Pirates!, ActionClix, Star Wars Miniatures, Monsterpocalypse, etc) the balance in X-Wing seems really well maintained and it keeps statistic based team building to a minimum allowing for those of us who play based on mythos or some other such focus to still enjoy playing in almost any environment.

As to the price of getting new players into the game, I have little to no concern. I got enough of each ship to do 100pts of each (8 TIEs, 4 X-wings, etc) because I love swarms and because, to me, this game is just a combination of recreating my Kenner collection from the 70s and 80s, and an homage to X-wing, the computer game series, which is probably also just because of my old Kenner toys.

I wouldn't expect anyone else to spend that much getting into the game, and have little to no idea what would be considered a good entry level amount of ships and/or how much that would cost.

While I get that Fringe factions can "break" games. But we're at far more risk of an upgrade card or new action breaking the game than any new ship. Basically, the Phantom is far far more risky than adding nuetral ships usable by both sides.

Its a Usual Suspects reference and a good one at that.

Well played Sir, a tip of my hat for that one!

I saw, "Convince me" and instantly heard David Kujan saying "tell me every last detail".

I've seen that movie more times than any person probably should.

Anyway, to answer your question honestly, it's not just the addition of a third faction to the a two faction game that causes problems.

As I've previously stated, I played Star Wars Miniatures. From the beginning, there was a "Fringe" faction that could be played with either Imperial or Rebel teams. (And later with Vong, CIS, Republic, etc.) This lead to Fringe characters being used to "break the game" by having them on teams out of their era for the purposes of some gimmick or other that totally ignored the property on which the game was based and instead made the game about statistics.

HeroClix, another game I've played, has had the same problem from the start. Not because of a "third faction" but because of poor balance presumably because of bad (or no) playtesting data usage.

Yeah, this is already going on in X-Wing to some extent from what I can gather by reading on here.

But in comparison to the other games I've played (BattleDroids, Battletech, Hero Quest, Talisman, Battle of Five Armies, HeroClix, HorrorClix, Pirates!, ActionClix, Star Wars Miniatures, Monsterpocalypse, etc) the balance in X-Wing seems really well maintained and it keeps statistic based team building to a minimum allowing for those of us who play based on mythos or some other such focus to still enjoy playing in almost any environment.

As to the price of getting new players into the game, I have little to no concern. I got enough of each ship to do 100pts of each (8 TIEs, 4 X-wings, etc) because I love swarms and because, to me, this game is just a combination of recreating my Kenner collection from the 70s and 80s, and an homage to X-wing, the computer game series, which is probably also just because of my old Kenner toys.

I wouldn't expect anyone else to spend that much getting into the game, and have little to no idea what would be considered a good entry level amount of ships and/or how much that would cost.

You know thanks to you I had to watch Usual Suspects again last night before going to bed.

Thank you for your answer. I actually really apreciate it, because I had not thought about Heroclix and the previous Star Wars miniature game (I never played either, but bought a bunch of the Starwas plastic minis for our RPG sessions.)

And to a certain extent I agree with you. I do not want to see Wedge and Boba Fett on the same side. That would be wrong. I already dislike the Firespray is an Imperial vessel. I want a third faction, but only if its a seperate faction and cannot be combined with the other 2. I dont want to see Imperial Y-Wings.

I would also like to point out a game where they have successfully added factions that did not destroy the game. Warmachine/Hordes. I have been playing that game for a little over 6 years now, and in my time they added 3 new factions: Retribution, Cyriss and Minions. None of the factions unbalanced the game. Like with all things, not everyone bought into the new factions, but enough did, and you see them represented at all the tournaments.

Either way, I play a lot of FFG games and they have not screwed the pooch yet so I trust them and give them the benefit of the doubt. If they do add a third faction (which I think is inevitable), I'm pretty sure it will be cool, make sense and be unique enough to justify its existence, while staying true to the spirit of the Starwars name.

Well perhaps a third faction has a new set of rules?

This faction MAY be included with rebels at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY be included with Imperials at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY NOT be included with both rebels AND imperials in the same build.

Well perhaps a third faction has a new set of rules?

This faction MAY be included with rebels at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY be included with Imperials at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY NOT be included with both rebels AND imperials in the same build.

Well, since you can't include rebels and imperials in the same build, that third rule doesn't really make sense.

Its a Usual Suspects reference and a good one at that.

Well played Sir, a tip of my hat for that one!

I saw, "Convince me" and instantly heard David Kujan saying "tell me every last detail".

I've seen that movie more times than any person probably should.

Anyway, to answer your question honestly, it's not just the addition of a third faction to the a two faction game that causes problems.

As I've previously stated, I played Star Wars Miniatures. From the beginning, there was a "Fringe" faction that could be played with either Imperial or Rebel teams. (And later with Vong, CIS, Republic, etc.) This lead to Fringe characters being used to "break the game" by having them on teams out of their era for the purposes of some gimmick or other that totally ignored the property on which the game was based and instead made the game about statistics.

HeroClix, another game I've played, has had the same problem from the start. Not because of a "third faction" but because of poor balance presumably because of bad (or no) playtesting data usage.

Yeah, this is already going on in X-Wing to some extent from what I can gather by reading on here.

But in comparison to the other games I've played (BattleDroids, Battletech, Hero Quest, Talisman, Battle of Five Armies, HeroClix, HorrorClix, Pirates!, ActionClix, Star Wars Miniatures, Monsterpocalypse, etc) the balance in X-Wing seems really well maintained and it keeps statistic based team building to a minimum allowing for those of us who play based on mythos or some other such focus to still enjoy playing in almost any environment.

As to the price of getting new players into the game, I have little to no concern. I got enough of each ship to do 100pts of each (8 TIEs, 4 X-wings, etc) because I love swarms and because, to me, this game is just a combination of recreating my Kenner collection from the 70s and 80s, and an homage to X-wing, the computer game series, which is probably also just because of my old Kenner toys.

I wouldn't expect anyone else to spend that much getting into the game, and have little to no idea what would be considered a good entry level amount of ships and/or how much that would cost.

Heroclix has no factions.

While I get that Fringe factions can "break" games. But we're at far more risk of an upgrade card or new action breaking the game than any new ship. Basically, the Phantom is far far more risky than adding nuetral ships usable by both sides.

I am fully aware of the fact that HeroClix has no factions. It's possible that I wasn't clear in explaining why I included the game in my post. I mentioned Clix because it's HORRIBLY unbalanced. They produce several figures, per set, that basically do what I am concerned a third faction will do.

I am very concerned about ANY new ship coming along and unbalancing the game, but a third faction seems to me to be more risky. Again, that may be based on my SWMiniatures experience, and I'll cop to that.

Well perhaps a third faction has a new set of rules?

This faction MAY be included with rebels at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY be included with Imperials at a cost of 2 additional points per ship.

This faction MAY NOT be included with both rebels AND imperials in the same build.

Well, since you can't include rebels and imperials in the same build, that third rule doesn't really make sense.

It is just there for clarification - because SOMEONE would eventually ask if you could combine rules 1 and 2

You used the same expression three times in a row, and I'm not convinced you even understand what it means. I suppose that goes double for quotation marks, but I digress. You also offered nothing salient to the conversation, choosing instead to focus upon my tone and choice of words rather than any of my actual arguments. Bluster indeed.

Good luck with... whatever your crusade is. I have no doubt that it'll go far with you and your talent for character judgment at the helm.

Your powers of observation are remarkable - I DID use the same expression three times in a row! Mainly because in the case of your tone and your choice of words it was not only highly appropriate but also worth repeating. If I added nothing salient to the conversation in that particular post it's because you a: ignored the original arguments and discussion presented earlier in the thread and b: haven't provided any on topic response of merit, preferring instead to focus on making on sulky, snide soundbytes.

TL;DR? If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I don't know why you bothered with a TL;DR. The paltry few words you used to cry about my posts, while certainly worthy of being ignored outright, were hardly enough to advance your position... whatever that might be, since all you seem concerned with at this point is singling out and lambasting me. Seriously, why so butt hurt? You'd think I peed in your cereal or something. Talk about petulance...

Simmer down you two (FTS Gecko & WonderWAAAGH). You aren't adding anything constructive to the discussion anymore, just trying to see who can push the bigger button. That's fine and dandy, but could you please do it in private messages instead? Thanks.

You used the same expression three times in a row, and I'm not convinced you even understand what it means. I suppose that goes double for quotation marks, but I digress. You also offered nothing salient to the conversation, choosing instead to focus upon my tone and choice of words rather than any of my actual arguments. Bluster indeed.

Good luck with... whatever your crusade is. I have no doubt that it'll go far with you and your talent for character judgment at the helm.

Your powers of observation are remarkable - I DID use the same expression three times in a row! Mainly because in the case of your tone and your choice of words it was not only highly appropriate but also worth repeating. If I added nothing salient to the conversation in that particular post it's because you a: ignored the original arguments and discussion presented earlier in the thread and b: haven't provided any on topic response of merit, preferring instead to focus on making on sulky, snide soundbytes.

TL;DR? If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I don't know why you bothered with a TL;DR. The paltry few words you used to cry about my posts, while certainly worthy of being ignored outright, were hardly enough to advance your position... whatever that might be, since all you seem concerned with at this point is singling out and lambasting me. Seriously, why so butt hurt? You'd think I peed in your cereal or something. Talk about petulance...

Alright, alright, everyone cool down a bit. This is going to be getting out of hand in short order, and none of us want that, do we?

Simmer down you two (FTS Gecko & WonderWAAAGH). You aren't adding anything constructive to the discussion anymore, just trying to see who can push the bigger button. That's fine and dandy, but could you please do it in private messages instead? Thanks.

No problem at all as far as I'm concerned, Wonderwail's bleating has bumped the topic back up to the top of the board, so let's get back on topic.

Simmer down you two (FTS Gecko & WonderWAAAGH). You aren't adding anything constructive to the discussion anymore, just trying to see who can push the bigger button. That's fine and dandy, but could you please do it in private messages instead? Thanks.

No problem at all as far as I'm concerned, Wonderwail's bleating has bumped the topic back up to the top of the board, so let's get back on topic.

Oh look, a final jab.

It would have been nice if you'd elected to take the high road in the first place. Maybe then we never would have gone off topic, and been spared the irony of your posts as well. Now that we're back on topic, maybe you can actually address my argument in post #93, rather than ignoring it and focusing on my satire instead. Let me help you out by quoting it:

Really? I remember an entire plot arc revolving around an independent faction in the original trilogy. Spanning all three films. And while admittedly there were no actual space battles, the entire opening act of the third film was dedicated to it...

You're reading EU plot devices into the original trilogy that were never there. Han owed money to a gangster. That's all any of movies ever hinted at, and is in no way indicative of a "third faction."

I have a lot of trust in the FFG designers to continue to produce balanced and fair ships.

To assume that they couldn't handle a third faction just by starting to reskin an x-wing and a firespray and then just tweaking some abilities is almost rude, and you post such rude words in their own backyard!

This game is so balanced its almost hard to build underpowered lists unless you are going for a strictly thematic squad or have no idea how to play.

Storm Squadron Pilot + Concussion Missile + Stealth Device

Captain Kagi + Sensor Jammer + Autoblaster + Gunner + Flight Instructor + ST-321 + Stealth Device

Winged Gundar + Shield Upgrade

Thats 100 wasted points.

I have a lot of faith in FFG, but they are not infallable. The TIE Advanced is an example of that and the Chaadran Refit is them making an mistake overcompensating the opposite direction.

But that being said, I have complete faith they can pull off a Fringer faction without weak links.

It's less than two years old, and immensely successful because of what it's already doing. Why jeopardize that by taking the game on a different, potentially unbalancing trajectory? Because some misguided fanboys want to transform a dog fighting game into an RPG?

C'mon man, why do you have to dish out something like that?

For starters, if by fanboys you mean people who really dig the star wars universe, what is wrong with them wanting the game to be more of a reflection of the star wars universe? But, recalling some other posts of yours (perhaps incorrectly) do you actually mean EU fanboy, whereas you are more orthodox in wanting this game to adhere more strictly to just the movies?

Then there is the dig on wanting to transform the game into an RPG. I'm not sure how that relates to the question of a third faction. Could you please explain that one to me?

To assume that they couldn't handle a third faction

No one is really assuming that, only that a 3rd faction might cause issues, not that it will.

But the bigger point is what if anything would a third faction actually offer that more ships for the current 2 wouldn't.

Does anyone really believe that a wave of 4 pirate/fringe ships would sell better then those same ships if they were split between Imp's and Rebs?

It's less than two years old, and immensely successful because of what it's already doing. Why jeopardize that by taking the game on a different, potentially unbalancing trajectory? Because some misguided fanboys want to transform a dog fighting game into an RPG?

C'mon man, why do you have to dish out something like that?

For starters, if by fanboys you mean people who really dig the star wars universe, what is wrong with them wanting the game to be more of a reflection of the star wars universe? But, recalling some other posts of yours (perhaps incorrectly) do you actually mean EU fanboy, whereas you are more orthodox in wanting this game to adhere more strictly to just the movies?

Then there is the dig on wanting to transform the game into an RPG. I'm not sure how that relates to the question of a third faction. Could you please explain that one to me?

We're all fanboys of one variety or another. I only take issue with the ones who want to take an already great game in a new direction, potentially satisfying their own particular inclinations at the expense of the game's overall health. I have no less faith in FFG than anyone else, but my mantra has ever been "if it's not broke, don't fix it." If the game was flagging then I might be on board for some radical change, but my impression is that participation has never been higher. And when a game is already doing this well, change can only take it one direction - downward.

As for the RPG comment, it was an admittedly vague allusion to contemporary trends in gaming. Everyone is clamoring for more abilities, more classes, more factions, more spells, and more weapons in everything that they play. In short, they want to feel like what they're playing is special and unique. I'm not sure if it's human nature to want more options, or just the advent of encroaching modernity, but it's making its presence felt everywhere - and that's not necessarily a good thing. Again, X-Wing is immensely successful for what it already is: a simple dog fighting game. Add too much and it stands to become something else entirely. A third faction brings nothing practical to the table, except to tickle the fancy of a handful of people who want to pretend that they're pirates and smugglers.