When the Falcon came out and wasn't "Fringe" I was a little bummed. But the game is well-balanced, and it's too late to go back, so I'm fine with no other factions.

...again with the "too late to change"!

The game is not even two years old, for pity's sake.

Too late to undo the precedence of YT's going Rebel and Firespray going Imperial. It seems they already made it clear this will be a two faction game.

Too late to undo the precedence of YT's going Rebel and Firespray going Imperial. It seems they already made it clear this will be a two faction game.

I disagree. It's not "too late" to change anything, as the Aces packs have already proved. "A-Wings overcosted? Here's a card that makes them cheaper! Interceptors don't come with Push The Limit? Now they do! And here's more pilots, more upgrades and new paint jobs for themall!"

If they were so inclined, FFG could release a repainted version of the Firespray with Rebel pilots, or a version of the Corvette in Imperial colors with Imperial crew and fans of either faction would welcome them with open arms.

Again, the game is less than 2 years old. It has an incredibly rich, diverse and varied universe to draw from. Saying "it's too late" for FFG to make changes to the current format at this point is to woefully misunderstand their business model.

When the Falcon came out and wasn't "Fringe" I was a little bummed. But the game is well-balanced, and it's too late to go back, so I'm fine with no other factions.

...again with the "too late to change"!

The game is not even two years old, for pity's sake.

"It's not the years; it's the mileage." - Dr. Henry Jones Junior

The Falcon and the Slave are already out as faction ships and the game has put out enough waves and ships that they are delving into EU obscurity. That's a lot of mileage in two years. I'm fairly happy with what we have. If that's the end of what they're putting out, I'm okay with it.

At least the game didn't jump the shark.

Too late to undo the precedence of YT's going Rebel and Firespray going Imperial. It seems they already made it clear this will be a two faction game.

I disagree. It's not "too late" to change anything, as the Aces packs have already proved. "A-Wings overcosted? Here's a card that makes them cheaper! Interceptors don't come with Push The Limit? Now they do! And here's more pilots, more upgrades and new paint jobs for themall!"

If they were so inclined, FFG could release a repainted version of the Firespray with Rebel pilots, or a version of the Corvette in Imperial colors with Imperial crew and fans of either faction would welcome them with open arms.

Again, the game is less than 2 years old. It has an incredibly rich, diverse and varied universe to draw from. Saying "it's too late" for FFG to make changes to the current format at this point is to woefully misunderstand their business model.

It's less than two years old, and immensely successful because of what it's already doing. Why jeopardize that by taking the game on a different, potentially unbalancing trajectory? Because some misguided fanboys want to transform a dog fighting game into an RPG? No, that's some poor business decision making right there, and I think FFG is smarter than that. And if they aren't, they'll probably lose my business. Not because I'm vindictive, but because I already spend enough money collecting ships for two factions.

To be honest I don't think a full third faction is viable this late. But I would love Mercenary ships that can be played on either side...

That makes sense to me. I can see why the Firespray, Falcon, and Outrider have to be one side or another, but not everything has to be that way...

I would really love for someone to explain to me just what a third faction brings to the game. And why sharing existing ships is a good thing. Those 2 points are the key to why I'm against a third faction.

I would really love for someone to explain to me just what a third faction brings to the game. And why sharing existing ships is a good thing. Those 2 points are the key to why I'm against a third faction.

That said, mercenary units bring more to the game than a third faction.

Whether 3rd faction or not, as long as the pace for new releases doesn't dramatically increase it is all the same to me. I like the game, I like playing it, and I will buy those ships and play them as well. Assuming they keep it all balanced, and we don't get buried under a ton of new ships, I'm all for whatever.

Yes, more ships adds more diversity. But, how is that different than if you add them to the existing factions. If anything, it makes the new faction less diverse.

As for sharing ships, it is good to have a faction identity. Blurring the lines between factions is not what I call good. I mean, the ships we have may share some stats, but they are all very different ships.

I have a couple of questions.

1) how does a third faction unbalance the game? The game is already unbalanced. Look at the regional championship results. 80% of the winning lists reported are Howlrunner + Backstabber + some permutation of 5 academies or 2 academies and 2 alpha squadrons.

The game will remain 1v1 with the exception of 2v2 epic and any other house rule formats. When a third faction comes out, Rebels will suddenly not be worse off.

2) what is talk about being hamstrung for options if a new faction comes out? There have been 4 waves to date. There are 8 ships per side plus 2 huge ships on the Rebel and soon to be matched on the Empire. All it would take is 2 waves to catch things up. Instead of dropping 4 ships (2 per side), they could drop 1 rebel and 1 imperial ship, and 2 fringer ships. Plus they could do a half wave like they did for the Awing/Bwing/Interceptor, where they released Scum versions of the Y-Wing, HWK, Z-95 and Firespray. Just like that, in 2 waves and a half you could have 8 Fringe ships.

There's a huge--probably crippling--self-selection problem with taking any group of forum posters.

It's not as effective as a random sample I agree. But it's also not completely useless like Zoccola was saying either.

If most everyone here is against something, or for something, then that's a good indication of the player base as a whole. It's not exact but it's a place to start. It is not however as Zoccola was saying worthless.

Forum posts are completely useless as a form of sampling a population. It is a completely biased self selection mechanism. For example, the group that I play with has like 30 members. 2 are members of this forum. You know where would be a good place to sample a gaming population? Gencon, or any other gaming convention. Standard convenience sampling. Walk up with a clip board and tick boxes. Forums are utterly useless and a great way to waste time.

If you want reasons, search for the other hundreds of threads exactly like this

And the reasons never change either; it's simply people being resistant to and fearful of change.

X-Wing is already FFG's best selling game and it's among top sellers among for all miniatures game.

I can think of 2 reasons why FFG would release a 3rd faction and they're not mutually exclusive.

1. Short term: Make more money now.
2. Long term: Secure the longevity of the game

For the first point, I don't think a 3rd faction, since it's so polarizing would make more money for them then say dedicating those same resources to another wave of Rebel and Imperial ships.

For the second point, if this game is to survive into the roaring 20's, I think it'll need more factions. It doesn't seem 2 factions will keep players interested in the long term. Players want variety, which is why the game was suffering from a drop off after wave 3, but is seeing a huge resurgence with all the new releases.

Great post. People will naturally complain about something new until they actually see it working and in action. People complained about the Firespray-31 not being an Imperial ship. the complained about the HWK and most of Wave 4 coming from the Extended Universe. The complained about the Epic-scale ships and the Epic play format

Then they saw them in action, saw the models, the upgrades and the cards, and they sold in droves.

At this point, FFG has earned the right to do what they want with the game. Personally I'd never seen or heard of the Decimator prior to the Wave 5 announcement, but that doesn't mean I begrudge it's place in the game - I'm actually quite excited by what it brings.

I'm equally excited by the possibilities of the oft-suggested Ground Assault expansion, with speeders, walkers and static defences; a reduced-scale fleet combat expansion to satisfy those with a craving for Star Destroyers, and of course another faction.

References to chess and checkers only ever having two sides are counter productive and pretentious. X-Wing is not chess, and it is not checkers. X-Wing has changed more in the two years (yes, the game has only been around for two years - where do you expect it to be in two years time?) than either of those classic games have changed in over 100 years. X-Wing is a multiplayer miniatures game based on an incredibly rich, varied and diverse universe. there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why the X-wing game can't be just as rich, varied and diverse.

Except of course, that good old resistance to and fear of change.

Is there, to you, a difference between fear and caution?

If I've been burned by fire, am I afraid to put my hand in the fire, or am I smart enough to not do it again?

Is there a difference, to you, between fearlessness and recklessness?

Can you please give me an example of a game that you have played before that suddenly broke because of the introduction of a new faction? I am genuinely intrigued. I have played tons of table top games, and its the nature of table top games to expand into new frontier or die stale.

A common fear that I have heard bantered around is buy in cost. "Adding a third faction will increase the buy in cost of the game that will turn away new players." How does this work exactly? Whether there are a total of 16 expansions to 2 faction game or 16 expansions to a 3 player game, there are still 16 expansions. What does it matter that there are three factions?

I am being genuine in my request for an explanation of the fears some people have, maybe if they are well articulated I could understand them. Convince me. Dont just say hell no, or look at 40k.

Yes, more ships adds more diversity. But, how is that different than if you add them to the existing factions. If anything, it makes the new faction less diverse.

As for sharing ships, it is good to have a faction identity. Blurring the lines between factions is not what I call good. I mean, the ships we have may share some stats, but they are all very different ships.

Faction identity is important. The imperials should not be passing over Ties to the Rebels, and the Empire shouldn't be using ABX-Wings, but there are ships that make more sense on both sides. Especially in the fringe sector battles most 100 point fleets would represent.

I would really love for someone to explain to me just what a third faction brings to the game. And why sharing existing ships is a good thing. Those 2 points are the key to why I'm against a third faction.

A third faction offers a great deal of potential for diversity, as does sharing ships. If you can't catch how adding options allows for diversity I just can't help you.

That said, mercenary units bring more to the game than a third faction.

Aminar,

i must admit, i was with you on this one, but the more i thought about it, the more i realised that the 2 fleets we have now play very different. if we allowed ships to be played on either faction we would lose that feeling of 2 different forces fighting each other. it would be like we were all flying imperial lists or all rebel lists

so i have changed my position on the topic, i would not like to see ships that can be flown by either faction, the only exception is 1 or 2 anomalies.

but could this game support a 3rd faction?

yes it probably could. but what would we gain and what would we lose if those new ships were just put into the 2 factions we already have?

i think FFG has a good idea here. 2 factions with 2 fighting styles that make them feel different when you play them

Convince me.

You know, I used to be in this barbershop quartet in Skokie, Illiniois. . .

Convince me.

You know, I used to be in this barbershop quartet in Skokie, Illiniois. . .

?

Its a Usual Suspects reference and a good one at that.

Well played Sir, a tip of my hat for that one!

so these 2 polish brothers head to the lumber yard.

the younger one jumps out of the truck and goes inside.

the guy inside asks "can i help you?"

the bother says "yeah we are looking to buy some wood."

the guy replies "well what do you need?"

the brother says "i'm not sure let me ask my brother"

he walks back out to the truck and returns to the guy and says "my brother says 2x4's"

the guy then asks "how many do you need?"

the brother says "i'm not sure let me ask my brother."

so again he walks outside and then returns and says "my brother says we need 40"

the guy then asks "ok, how long do you need them?"

the brother again says "i'm not sure let me ask my brother."

so, again he walks outside and returns and says to the guy "my brother says we are going to need them for awhile, because we are building a house."

and just so you all know, i am 100% polish so no hate there

Just one small point.. to the guy who said take 2 waves and create a third faction... Sorry don't recall who just at the moment, and coupdn't find the post when I went back.

Realize one thing here. if you take 2 waves.. ALL that are supposed to come out for a year, and give them over to a 3rd faction, you do not get Imps and Rebels for a year.. sure maybe they toss in a Aces again for each side.. but not full waves.. not the best way to kill your game but many could get a bit miffed.

Also who says everyone is gonna buy into the 3rd faction and make their effort worth the money invested, no one seems to think about this part. Maybe a hard core few buy everything they put out.. maybe a few from each side figure to get the new stuff and use the upgrades... but not enough to make the 2 waves you suggest .. successful... game stagnation, possibly lots of complaints ... best game ever becomes best game we used to play, or best game we no longer buy stuff for, and play out our own rules and sides..

For everyone saying ... give us a 3rd faction.. make a house rule, or a game night where.. all the factions are null.. make your bounty hunter side, or Black Sun gangs.. do what you want... but this game works fine with 2 factions, because that's what it is really about.. Good Versus Evil.. Empire, and Rebellion.

the validity of what has been said before is there, a 3rd faction isn't needed, and to the guy that said "fear of change" ... seriously.. not my issue, it's about what this game is invested in.. the Rebels going against the Empire.. it's the movies and it's Canon. The EU is being shut down by the Disney guys, so revel in the ships we get from that, but don't be surprised when the Zan, and the Black Sun, and the half dozen other factions don't materialize..

It's less than two years old, and immensely successful because of what it's already doing. Why jeopardize that by taking the game on a different, potentially unbalancing trajectory? Because some misguided fanboys want to transform a dog fighting game into an RPG? No, that's some poor business decision making right there, and I think FFG is smarter than that. And if they aren't, they'll probably lose my business. Not because I'm vindictive, but because I already spend enough money collecting ships for two factions.

So what you're actually saying in a long-winded manner is FFG won't lose your business, you'll simply tut and shake your head, then continue to support them by buying for the factions you're interested in playing. So your post is essentially petulant and pointless bluster.

No-one here wants to "turn a dogfighting game into an RPG" either. That's petulant and pointless bluster as well. The posters who are interested in a third faction simply want to see more diversity, and NOT at the expense of game balance.

What with this post and your "hilarious" Axis and Allies comment (a self-contained board game which doesn't as far as I know supplement itself with increasingly regular expansion packs and additional rules), you're getting quite good at this petulant and pointless bluster routine.

Let's suppose FFG intends to produce three new bounty hunters and three new smugglers. How is creating a new, third faction and dedicating most of Waves 6 and 7 entirely to that faction any better than producing those same bounty hunters and smugglers, but incorporating them into Imperial and Rebel factions? Sithborg has been trying to get at this several times before, but no one has answered yet.

Edit: supposed FFG intends to produce three, not four, since we already have Firespray and TY-1300. Slight rewording, too.

It's less than two years old, and immensely successful because of what it's already doing. Why jeopardize that by taking the game on a different, potentially unbalancing trajectory? Because some misguided fanboys want to transform a dog fighting game into an RPG? No, that's some poor business decision making right there, and I think FFG is smarter than that. And if they aren't, they'll probably lose my business. Not because I'm vindictive, but because I already spend enough money collecting ships for two factions.

So what you're actually saying in a long-winded manner is FFG won't lose your business, you'll simply tut and shake your head, then continue to support them by buying for the factions you're interested in playing. So your post is essentially petulant and pointless bluster.

No-one here wants to "turn a dogfighting game into an RPG" either. That's petulant and pointless bluster as well. The posters who are interested in a third faction simply want to see more diversity, and NOT at the expense of game balance.

What with this post and your "hilarious" Axis and Allies comment (a self-contained board game which doesn't as far as I know supplement itself with increasingly regular expansion packs and additional rules), you're getting quite good at this petulant and pointless bluster routine.

You used the same expression three times in a row, and I'm not convinced you even understand what it means. I suppose that goes double for quotation marks, but I digress. You also offered nothing salient to the conversation, choosing instead to focus upon my tone and choice of words rather than any of my actual arguments. Bluster indeed.

Good luck with... whatever your crusade is. I have no doubt that it'll go far with you and your talent for character judgment at the helm.

Let's suppose FFG intends to produce three new bounty hunters and three new smugglers. How is creating a new, third faction and dedicating most of Waves 6 and 7 entirely to that faction any better than producing those same bounty hunters and smugglers, but incorporating them into Imperial and Rebel factions? Sithborg has been trying to get at this several times before, but no one has answered yet.

Edit: supposed FFG intends to produce three, not four, since we already have Firespray and TY-1300. Slight rewording, too.

IMO they can easy set smugglers to Rebels and bounties to imperials.

The old fight Han x Boba.

IMO they can easy set smugglers to Rebels and bounties to imperials.

The old fight Han x Boba.

I agree, but obviously some people on this thread feel very passionately that only including those ships in a third faction somehow creates diversity. I find that more limiting, because then you couldn't fly Imperials with bounty hunters, or Rebels with smugglers. I was hoping to hear some intelligent contrary points of view.

You used the same expression three times in a row, and I'm not convinced you even understand what it means. I suppose that goes double for quotation marks, but I digress. You also offered nothing salient to the conversation, choosing instead to focus upon my tone and choice of words rather than any of my actual arguments. Bluster indeed.

Good luck with... whatever your crusade is. I have no doubt that it'll go far with you and your talent for character judgment at the helm.

Your powers of observation are remarkable - I DID use the same expression three times in a row! Mainly because in the case of your tone and your choice of words it was not only highly appropriate but also worth repeating. If I added nothing salient to the conversation in that particular post it's because you a: ignored the original arguments and discussion presented earlier in the thread and b: haven't provided any on topic response of merit, preferring instead to focus on making on sulky, snide soundbytes.

TL;DR? If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

I agree, but obviously some people on this thread feel very passionately that only including those ships in a third faction somehow creates diversity. I find that more limiting, because then you couldn't fly Imperials with bounty hunters, or Rebels with smugglers. I was hoping to hear some intelligent contrary points of view.

I don't see how factions stop one from playing lists they like anyway - outside of the tournament play arena, In the "casual mode" we're already flying pirate fleets with Yt's Hwks Firesprays Y-wings and soon to be Z-95s...We (my local group) has had fun games where the rebels had to escort a captured tie fighter to a planet, or good old shuttle tyderium... So - I don't think the "faction" lines would prevent a "bounty hunter / imperial" list - especially in epic where we've got a bagillion poitns goin on.

As I imagine though - a third faction might be good for game balance. "what?" I can hear you say. I mean in the future - as ships get added to the current factions the number of interactions increases dramatically. The squadron possibilities* were fairly small during the initial release. The upgrade cards cause the list permutations to skyrocket. Imagine trying to put together wave 4, there's a ton of content there and lots and lots of interactions. When we look at the future of the rebellion and the empire, including those "fringe" ships - pilot interactions maybe get really hard to keep in check, while keeping things fresh (via new mechanics such as cloaking etc)

I can imagine a new faction would give a new "ecosystem" to design within, somewhat simplifying the task of developing and expanding the game. It might be easier for them to build / design and test more factions than it would be to just expand the two current factions at the 4 ship per wave rate. Maybe that's why we're seeing just two ships in wave 5? I don't know - I'm not a game designer, so this is pure conjecture.

After playing other games, and many various 100 point lists, I feel that there's good balance in x-wing, so I trust that if FFG were to create another faction, that they'd not destroy the game in the process. I don't quite understand the criticism that a third faction will likely unbalance what is already an asymmetrical game.

One thing is certain - there's always going to be someone who is unhappy no matter what the future holds for the game... Prequel ships, Extra Factions, Crazy EU ships, Tie fighter repaints, rogue squadron.... Whatever comes our way some will rejoice and others will rage quit.

* Just unique ship combinations - not upgrade card numbers, which were already high.

IMO they can easy set smugglers to Rebels and bounties to imperials.

The old fight Han x Boba.

I agree, but obviously some people on this thread feel very passionately that only including those ships in a third faction somehow creates diversity. I find that more limiting, because then you couldn't fly Imperials with bounty hunters, or Rebels with smugglers. I was hoping to hear some intelligent contrary points of view.

This is a good point right here.

Because of my Star Wars Miniatures background, I guess I keep assuming that any third faction would be a "wild card" that could be played alone or with Rebels OR Imperials. Rather myopic on my part if I do say so.

The idea that a third faction would only be able to play as a third faction would make me even more strongly oppose the idea in general.

- Third faction as a "wild card" will more than likely lead to destabilization of the balance of the game.

- Third faction that can only play as a third faction is limiting and not what I'm looking for.

I think Sithborg has it right. One way or the other, the denizens of the "third faction" in Star Wars end up being aligned with either Rebels or Imperials for the most part, "fringe" ships are already in the game in certain factions. Just roll with it in the way that it's rolled so far.