Given that the factions themselves don't confer any advantage other than the arbitrary selection of ships, I fail to see what benefit a 3rd faction would bring.

1) The game is called X-Wing. It's clearly meant to evoke the space battles from the original trilogy, and I don't recall there being a third faction in those movies.

2) Anything that resembles Star Trek is bad. Attack Wing - we don't need their scum.

3) The game is exceptionally well balanced as is. People saying "what harm could it do?" don't seem to comprehend how changing too much too fast can be a bad thing.

Well, there was Jabba the Hutt, and a ton of bounty hunters. We have Mos Eisley (and pretty much all of Tatooine), with tons of references to fringe space. Cloud City was independent before growing large enough to attract attention, and there are a lot of references to other factions/powers that don't quite align with either the Rebel Alliance or the Empire.

So there is certainly a valid claim to having other factions beyond the two sides of the civil war. As far as your other two points, I agree wholeheartedly.

The originally trilogy of Star Wars always had the three faction thing going on. Rebels, Empire and the profiteering scum that will work both sides to their own gain. I am willing to bet good money that it is only a matter of time before they release a Fringer or Scum faction.

And for precedence, look at Wings of War.

Whether you accept it or not, the model for this game is very different from anything GW or Privateer Press has done. Once a wave drops in this game, its bought up in a month or two, and then sales of those models trickle out. Once FFG got their stock numbers in order, when was the last time someone who has been playing for a year bought an x-wing or a TIE fighter? I have 5 xwings and 8 TIEs. I dont need more. I will never buy more.

Thats why FFG NEEDS to keep dropping waves. And from what I have gathered in my very scientific polling of my gaming group, wave four wont be bought up like the other waves. People are buying 1 of each ship, except maybe the Z-95.

So FFG needs a new faction to stimulate more sales. FFG is a business. Without sales, why would they put out the rules, or host this forum? A new faction is a lot of new sales, to old players.

I'm not sure why an EU only faction would sell better than EU waves of the existing factions.

Also, going by the reprints, it seems the older ships are still selling fairly well. The only difference is, that they are not selling quite fast enough to cause shortages.

1) The game is called X-Wing. It's clearly meant to evoke the space battles from the original trilogy, and I don't recall there being a third faction in those movies.

2) Anything that resembles Star Trek is bad. Attack Wing - we don't need their scum.

3) The game is exceptionally well balanced as is. People saying "what harm could it do?" don't seem to comprehend how changing too much too fast can be a bad thing.

(1) There's good evidence for a third faction in Han's interactions with Jabba throughout, the bounty Hunter scene in Empire, and the existence of Cloud City--lots of people who aren't really affiliated with the Empire (and don't particularly like them), but haven't thrown their lot in with the Rebellion.

And there are of course lots of pirates in the old X-wing PC games that someone at FFG apparently loved at least as much as I did.

(2) Fair enough, but they could avoid Attack Wing cooties by making sure that Dengar (or whoever) can't just pay an extra point to deploy on an Imperial shuttle.

(3) The hard part would be establishing a faction identity, not balancing the ships themselves. And that could throw things off, but it certainly could be done in a balanced way. As I said upthread, I think, I don't see any particular reason to think they should put in a third faction, but I don't really see obstacles to doing so if[/ii] FFG decided they wanted to.

dont want a 3rd faction but if its going to happen can we please think outside the box and bring in the Ssi-ruuk or Chiss

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Truce_at_Bakura

I dont want to see the ships we already love butchered to make them look diffrent so we can have a 3rd faction

people can modify there ship if they wish for something diffrent I dont mind that but I dont want to see them for sale

dont want a 3rd faction but if its going to happen can we please think outside the box and bring in the Ssi-ruuk or Chiss

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Truce_at_Bakura

I dont want to see the ships we already love butchered to make them look diffrent so we can have a 3rd faction

people can modify there ship if they wish for something diffrent I dont mind that but I dont want to see them for sale

Uh, what? The Ssi-ruuk are one of the sillier things in the EU, although of course they rank way behind the Yuuzhan Vong, and I'd hate to see them in this game--and there's not a lot of variety to be had there anyway.

But what makes you think a third faction would require "butchered" versions of current ships? Do you mean Uglies?

GW is a dinosaur waiting to DIE. X-Wing is a superior game in every way to 40K. FFG has this game correct. The less they are like GW the better off they will be.

You’re not wrong. But GW’s failing isn’t necessarily that is has multiple factions (although…of the 14-ish factions in Warhammer 40k….5 or 6 of them are space marines); it’s the fact that they don’t care about their own game community, no longer care about making their game balanced rules-wise, and have consistently raised prices for the last fifteen years.

I don’t think FFG would be immediately doomed by adding a third faction (or even a fourth or fifth with with the eventual inclusion of the Galactic Republic and Confederacy of Independent Systems)…in fact I think their price point at $14.95 for all fighter-size ships and $29.95 for all freighter-sized ships is a very acceptable rate. I do think that FFG should tread cautiously when expanding the game however….spend several months worth of playtesting to balance the game when allowing for new factions and ships.

Why do so many people say no?

I see lots of "no" "heck no" "we don't need it" - but very little reasoning on why we don't need them?

I figure as long as the game balance remains and a third faction is viable - why not? Still, it would be mighty tough to put out enough ships in a short time to make a third faction viable.

Mine isn't a "heck no" and I do have reasons, so I hope this works for you.

I played Star Wars Miniatures and I saw a lot of instances where a wild card third faction was integral to subversion of the balance of the game that maintained some sense of adherence to the mythos on which the game was based.

Yeah, it's possible that the third faction would stand on its own and therefore not be problematic in the same way, but I like this game a LOT because of its balance. I would hate to see, as I've seen in SO many other games, a real chasm grow between "casual" and "competitive" play. There is a bit of a difference in this game, but there isn't the LEAGUE between them that I've experienced in almost every other game, eventually.

Also keep in mind that I really like the idea of "pirates" or "fringe" characters. They've always been a favorite part of the Star Wars Universe to me.

Maybe I'm being over-cautious, I'll cop to that. But I'd rather not see something come along that could ruin what I see as an oasis amidst an industry presently driven by "statistics only" play.

So much Herp, so much derp.

The originally trilogy of Star Wars always had the three faction thing going on. Rebels, Empire and the profiteering scum that will work both sides to their own gain. I am willing to bet good money that it is only a matter of time before they release a Fringer or Scum faction.

And for precedence, look at Wings of War.

Whether you accept it or not, the model for this game is very different from anything GW or Privateer Press has done. Once a wave drops in this game, its bought up in a month or two, and then sales of those models trickle out. Once FFG got their stock numbers in order, when was the last time someone who has been playing for a year bought an x-wing or a TIE fighter? I have 5 xwings and 8 TIEs. I dont need more. I will never buy more.

Thats why FFG NEEDS to keep dropping waves. And from what I have gathered in my very scientific polling of my gaming group, wave four wont be bought up like the other waves. People are buying 1 of each ship, except maybe the Z-95.

So FFG needs a new faction to stimulate more sales. FFG is a business. Without sales, why would they put out the rules, or host this forum? A new faction is a lot of new sales, to old players.

You are taking a very myopic view of the business aspect. Too many releases also has a detrimental effect on your overall sales. Launching a 3rd faction may boost sales in the short term but in the long term it cannibalizes sales of your existing product lines. Your assumptions are based on the individual consumer having a disposable income that is effectively infinite as far as X-wing is concerned and that is what is leading you to your conclusion.

The reality is that even if no one buys them the production of earlier waves (as well as their associated marketing, warehousing and R&D costs) are sunk costs. If you release a product that is directly superior to your existing product line; even if only from a novelty factor, then you run into a greater risk of underselling/unsold product. This is exactly the problem that GW has with their massive product line and why they have done a massive consolidation exercise.

1) The game is called X-Wing. It's clearly meant to evoke the space battles from the original trilogy, and I don't recall there being a third faction in those movies.

2) Anything that resembles Star Trek is bad. Attack Wing - we don't need their scum.

3) The game is exceptionally well balanced as is. People saying "what harm could it do?" don't seem to comprehend how changing too much too fast can be a bad thing.

1) I agree with what you're saying. Thematically, the game is supposed to be "Good versus Evil", not "Good versus Evil versus Kinda-sorta-Evil"

2) This.

3) The problem with this line of thought is that the balance lies in the individual ships, not the factions themselves. This is why you can pit Empire vs. Empire or Rebel vs. Rebel. So you can actually introduce another faction which is balanced quite easily, since each ship is self-contained and self-balanced against all other ships, including ships from its own faction.

I understand that there's a criminal element being hinted at in the original trilogy. Hinted at . That hardly constitutes a third faction, especially if you take away everything from the EU.

3) The problem with this line of thought is that the balance lies in the individual ships, not the factions themselves. This is why you can pit Empire vs. Empire or Rebel vs. Rebel. So you can actually introduce another faction which is balanced quite easily, since each ship is self-contained and self-balanced against all other ships, including ships from its own faction.

Part of it is individual ship balance, part of it is faction balance, but mostly the point I was trying to make was that playing catch up would result in too many ships being released for a single faction at one time. I have a lot of faith in FFG, but releasing 4-8 brand new ships, all at once, for a single faction could prove to be very upsetting to the overall game. Some people say "what could it hurt?", but I say why risk changing something that already works well as is?

dont want a 3rd faction but if its going to happen can we please think outside the box and bring in the Ssi-ruuk or Chiss

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Truce_at_Bakura

I dont want to see the ships we already love butchered to make them look diffrent so we can have a 3rd faction

people can modify there ship if they wish for something diffrent I dont mind that but I dont want to see them for sale

Uh, what? The Ssi-ruuk are one of the sillier things in the EU, although of course they rank way behind the Yuuzhan Vong, and I'd hate to see them in this game--and there's not a lot of variety to be had there anyway.

But what makes you think a third faction would require "butchered" versions of current ships? Do you mean Uglies?

Uglies. yes they are fun when people make them for a bit of diffrence but i dont want to see them for sale

I also dont like the idea of Black Sun or who ever having Falcons I know its a YT 1300 and I know the ship yards made alot of them but its the Falcon to me

my way of thinking was a threat to the galaxy to fight agianst not Smugglers that cause problems

just smoething to think about

3rd Faction would be fun, if it brought in a new element to the game. It would need to play differently than the Rebels and Imperials, which are becoming more and more similar with every release.

You all suck, you want smugglers or bounty hunters or black sun.......screw that

Give me the Wookie Ships and their Wookie Empire!

Xwing has always seemed more based on the PC games x wing and tie fighter to me, more so than the original trilogy movies.

You all suck, you want smugglers or bounty hunters or black sun.......screw that

Give me the Wookie Ships and their Wookie Empire!

Better yet: Gungans.

You are taking a very myopic view of the business aspect. Too many releases also has a detrimental effect on your overall sales. Launching a 3rd faction may boost sales in the short term but in the long term it cannibalizes sales of your existing product lines. Your assumptions are based on the individual consumer having a disposable income that is effectively infinite as far as X-wing is concerned and that is what is leading you to your conclusion.

The reality is that even if no one buys them the production of earlier waves (as well as their associated marketing, warehousing and R&D costs) are sunk costs. If you release a product that is directly superior to your existing product line; even if only from a novelty factor, then you run into a greater risk of underselling/unsold product. This is exactly the problem that GW has with their massive product line and why they have done a massive consolidation exercise.

I can't speak to Zoccola's myopia, but you - good sir - are taking a counterfactual approach to the question. Perhaps your logic of "too many releases" being detrimental to the overall sales is quite sound. However, FFG seems to be ramping up its releases, not scaling them back in the presumed long-term interest.

Also, while Sonova may be presuming on unlimited income, you are presuming on insufficient income. While limited income is a given, the question remains if that income is too limited. Is the market saturated?

I don't know where the point of market saturation is, and neither do you. From what I see in my environs, people are clamoring to buy more and more stuff. It doesn't matter if they already have a very competitive set of ships, they want more. They're buying the Transport and the Tantive, even if these things will probably see limited use in the games they play (+/-95% being 6-asteroid-100-point deathmatches). Are the small number of cards that come with these ships worth it for those cards alone? Not hardly.

So, it seems like this market is very far from being saturated in terms of the variety of ships. In terms of the quantity of ships, it looks like people will buy more than what they need of any particular type.

Yes, FFG has some interest in protecting their brand name and not overproducing to the point where the product goes out of style because it has cheapened the brand. But we don't know what their time horizon is. Maybe they're looking at their license not being renewed because ... Disney. Sure, we might think that Disney benefits from letting FFG carry on, but we don't know what Disney's long-term plans for the IP are.

LONG STORY SHORT:

Your view may be no less myopic than Zoccola's

You all suck, you want smugglers or bounty hunters or black sun.......screw that

Give me the Wookie Ships and their Wookie Empire!

Better yet: Gungans.

You are taking a very myopic view of the business aspect. Too many releases also has a detrimental effect on your overall sales. Launching a 3rd faction may boost sales in the short term but in the long term it cannibalizes sales of your existing product lines. Your assumptions are based on the individual consumer having a disposable income that is effectively infinite as far as X-wing is concerned and that is what is leading you to your conclusion.

The reality is that even if no one buys them the production of earlier waves (as well as their associated marketing, warehousing and R&D costs) are sunk costs. If you release a product that is directly superior to your existing product line; even if only from a novelty factor, then you run into a greater risk of underselling/unsold product. This is exactly the problem that GW has with their massive product line and why they have done a massive consolidation exercise.

I can't speak to Zoccola's myopia, but you - good sir - are taking a counterfactual approach to the question. Perhaps your logic of "too many releases" being detrimental to the overall sales is quite sound. However, FFG seems to be ramping up its releases, not scaling them back in the presumed long-term interest.

Also, while Sonova may be presuming on unlimited income, you are presuming on insufficient income. While limited income is a given, the question remains if that income is too limited. Is the market saturated?

I don't know where the point of market saturation is, and neither do you. From what I see in my environs, people are clamoring to buy more and more stuff. It doesn't matter if they already have a very competitive set of ships, they want more. They're buying the Transport and the Tantive, even if these things will probably see limited use in the games they play (+/-95% being 6-asteroid-100-point deathmatches). Are the small number of cards that come with these ships worth it for those cards alone? Not hardly.

So, it seems like this market is very far from being saturated in terms of the variety of ships. In terms of the quantity of ships, it looks like people will buy more than what they need of any particular type.

Yes, FFG has some interest in protecting their brand name and not overproducing to the point where the product goes out of style because it has cheapened the brand. But we don't know what their time horizon is. Maybe they're looking at their license not being renewed because ... Disney. Sure, we might think that Disney benefits from letting FFG carry on, but we don't know what Disney's long-term plans for the IP are.

LONG STORY SHORT:

Your view may be no less myopic than Zoccola's

You are really missing the point i was making. My point was that releasing models in some vain attempt to boost sales is counterproductive in the long run. GW and Privateer Press (to a lesser degree) both suffer from a sprawling product line and have effectively slowed new faction launches to a crawl and/or done massive cullings of their product range.

And I don't see where I said that consumer spend was insufficient, merely pointed out that his assumption where the average consumer is at or close to saturation is a logical fallacy. Yes, once the consumer reaches saturation point they will stop buying ships but how many consumers are actually at that point? All he has is anecdotal evidence which is heavily colored by his own circumstances. And yes you are right. We dont know what the business case is for FFG. We simply dont have access to that information. Which is why the blanket assertion that releasing a 3rd faction is 100% beneficial is extremely facetious at best or downright delusional based on the precedent set by the industry forerunners.

If you took the time to read the rest of the thread the vast majority of people clamoring for a 3rd faction just want more ships than an actual 3rd faction. People have already pointed out that you dont NEED a 3rd faction to accomplish this.

All this thread is essentially is a bunch of people asking for is for FFG to release 4-5 waves worth of ships in short order because they have too much money in their pockets and **** the ramifications for the actual game or the company itself.

You are really missing the point i was making. My point was that releasing models in some vain attempt to boost sales is counterproductive in the long run. GW and Privateer Press (to a lesser degree) both suffer from a sprawling product line.

I'm pretty sure I understood what you were saying.

I also think you're giving your argumentation a lot of hot air with the sophistry and you were (and are) being condescending. I guess I took exception to the appearance of high-handedness on your part, and thought I would return the favor on his behalf.

Look, let's be friends here.

He (and I) would like a third faction because it'd be cool. You (also like me) are a bit worried that they're going to damage the integrity of the product line by going gangbusters. I don't think that they would damage the product line with a third faction, unless they did a lousy job of designing it. I think they've done a fairly good job with the near-fringe products (e.g. the Firespray and the HWK), but they're scraping the bottom of the barrel with some other things (e.g. E-Wing, because of its timeline).

Yes, that's just my opinion.

None of us has anything more than anecdotal evidence. Even if your mastery of economics or marketing science is a bit beyond his, doesn't make any of it more true. You also have to rely on assumptions to make the counter argument. For example, we don't know what FFG's time horizon is, given that they don't own the IP. They're renting; not owning. Do you know when their lease is up? What incentive do they have not to reap all they can reap in as short of a timespan as they can?

Reputation, maybe, but what is their corporate governance structure?

I feel like they'd have to change the name of the game if they added a third faction. Hell, might as well go face first down the rabbit hole.

Instead of X-Wing, may I present to you the various factions of Star Warriors:

Rebel Alliance

Galactic Empire

Turnbull AC's

Orphans

Baseball Furies (my personal favorite)

The Lizzies

Punks

The Rogues (not to be confused with Rogue Squadron, they hate that)

Gramercy Riffs

Boppers

Boyle Galaxy Runners

Electric Eliminators

Gladiators

Hi-Hats

Hurricanes

Jones Nebula Boys

Endor Moonrunners

Panzers

Saracens

Satans Mothers

Savage Huns

Van Cortlandt Space Rangers

... and of course, The Destroyers, who are simply too large to fit in a properly scaled game.

If the Firespray, YT-1300, YT-2400, HWK, and Z-95 hadn't already been released as part of the pre-existing factions, I could see a third faction being possible.

The third faction would either NOT have access to these ships (and what the heck kind of a Smuggler/Fringer/Bounty Hunter faction would it be without those staples?) or they would be robbing both of the original factions of very uniqie ships (moreso the Rebels).

So much of their design is based around only two factions: Bases have either green or red lasers, for instance. So bases for the third faction would have blue lasers, or something? Same with the range rulers, dice, etc. It may seem like a 'small silly issue' but these kind of asthetic considerations are obviously taken quite seriously by the designers at FFG.

Then if they did add a third faction and pilots for ships that are already released, it doesn't seem likely that FFG would just rerelease the same models. And they haven't released pilot bases without actual ship models before, a precedent I hope they stick to. They'd likely have to issue repaints of the previously released ships, which is a ton of design and general investment for ships that aren't even new.

I can't see how it would make sense for them to release a third faction given their business descisions up to this point.

I feel like they'd have to change the name of the game if they added a third faction. Hell, might as well go face first down the rabbit hole.

I think you're right - but I think they should actually take this further. I mean the game is called X-Wing. It's not called X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. If they were going to have the Empire in the game, they would have to name the game something that would imply the Empire's inclusion.

Actually, since we're on that subject. It's called 'X-Wing Miniatures Game', not 'A-Wing Miniatures Game' or 'B-Wing Miniatures Game'. How can they possibly justify having all those expansions, unless the game is called something that adds all of those things to its title?

I feel like they'd have to change the name of the game if they added a third faction. Hell, might as well go face first down the rabbit hole.

I think you're right - but I think they should actually take this further. I mean the game is called X-Wing. It's not called X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter. If they were going to have the Empire in the game, they would have to name the game something that would imply the Empire's inclusion.

Actually, since we're on that subject. It's called 'X-Wing Miniatures Game', not 'A-Wing Miniatures Game' or 'B-Wing Miniatures Game'. How can they possibly justify having all those expansions, unless the game is called something that adds all of those things to its title?

Your brilliant use of sarcasm has convinced me of the error of my ways. Clearly there is room for a third faction, maybe even a fourth. Might as well just pile in all of the Stat Trek ships while we're at it, since the game clearly has no boundaries at this point.

Well the neutral faction would if you want a theme just ignore the rebel/imperial rules and use these models.

YT-1300 (Outer Rim Smuggler only)

HWK-290 (Operative only)

Firespray-31(All pilots)

YT-2400 (No unique characters)

Z-95 (Bandit Squadron Only, because they are bandits)

But as for me the Imperial vs Rebel is fairly balanced.

Rebel Star Fighters have more firepower but Imperial Pilots are cheaper and field more fighters.

Rebel Star Fighters have Shields but Imperial Fighter have better agility.

Rebel Star Fighters have Target Lock but Imperial Fighters have evade and barrel roll.

Rebel Fighters have more upgrade options but Imperial fighters have better movement range.

It all works out, For 2 Rookie Pilots you can get 3 Academy Pilots which has equal firepower (3 x 2 vs 2 x 3) and almost equal health (10 hits vs 9 hits with the X wings being easier to hit) It works out. a 3rd faction needs some other symmetry to make the other faction balanced. No one wants paper rock scissor factions where the game is decided not on squad composition and movement but instead on said faction being stronger versus one faction but always loose to the other.