The fact that FFG does well with their current product lineup is no reason to assume that they can turn anything into gold, no matter how bad a premise it may be to start off with.

It's no reason to assume they won't either.

With the star destroyer argument, there were many, concrete, definable reasons it would be too problematic. So far your entire argument against an additional faction has been "because they might screw it up".

I also note your just assuming its a bad premise to start off with. Basically you personally don't like the idea and that is so coloring your perceptions of it you can't see anything else. Vanor has been doing a much better job of arguing against the idea, in fact, he is the only one providing any reasonable arguments against it, and even his argument boiled down to "it doesn't add anything", which isn't quite true.

I've said before, I don't think it will happen. I don't think it is necessary. But I do think it would be fun and I think it could be done very very well without too much trouble on FFGs part.

When faced with the possibility of introducing radical change into a system which already works incredibly well, which is the most natural assumption? That the game will a) stay the same, b) get even better, or c) get worse?

Any of which I am ok with.

In social psychology that's called confirmation bias, and even multiplying your dozen or so sample tenfold is statistically insignificant.

Yeah, it really isn't. Do you really think one in 10 easily excitable optomistic gamers come to these forums?

Try 1 in a thousand or so. We are a tiny cynical reactionary section of this games playerbase. Our opinions will always be the most conservative the playerbase has.

We've had people whine about Proton Rockets, Dash Renars ability, EU ships, the fact people want Star Destroyers, Huge Ships, this games supposed imbalance, the fact people want new factions, etc... Basically, we're the games Tea Party.

ok, let me stop you right there, i resent being called anything that has to do with the tea baggers

The fact that FFG does well with their current product lineup is no reason to assume that they can turn anything into gold, no matter how bad a premise it may be to start off with.

It's no reason to assume they won't either.

With the star destroyer argument, there were many, concrete, definable reasons it would be too problematic. So far your entire argument against an additional faction has been "because they might screw it up".

I also note your just assuming its a bad premise to start off with. Basically you personally don't like the idea and that is so coloring your perceptions of it you can't see anything else. Vanor has been doing a much better job of arguing against the idea, in fact, he is the only one providing any reasonable arguments against it, and even his argument boiled down to "it doesn't add anything", which isn't quite true.

I've said before, I don't think it will happen. I don't think it is necessary. But I do think it would be fun and I think it could be done very very well without too much trouble on FFGs part.

When faced with the possibility of introducing radical change into a system which already works incredibly well, which is the most natural assumption? That the game will a) stay the same, b) get even better, or c) get worse?

Even split. That's a 2/3rds chance of staying the same or getting better.

Any of which I am ok with.

This isn't a die roll, and being presented with three options does not mean that all of them stand an equal chance of occurring.

The fact that FFG does well with their current product lineup is no reason to assume that they can turn anything into gold, no matter how bad a premise it may be to start off with.

It's no reason to assume they won't either.

With the star destroyer argument, there were many, concrete, definable reasons it would be too problematic. So far your entire argument against an additional faction has been "because they might screw it up".

I also note your just assuming its a bad premise to start off with. Basically you personally don't like the idea and that is so coloring your perceptions of it you can't see anything else. Vanor has been doing a much better job of arguing against the idea, in fact, he is the only one providing any reasonable arguments against it, and even his argument boiled down to "it doesn't add anything", which isn't quite true.

I've said before, I don't think it will happen. I don't think it is necessary. But I do think it would be fun and I think it could be done very very well without too much trouble on FFGs part.

When faced with the possibility of introducing radical change into a system which already works incredibly well, which is the most natural assumption? That the game will a) stay the same, b) get even better, or c) get worse?

Even split. That's a 2/3rds chance of staying the same or getting better.

Any of which I am ok with.

This isn't a die roll, and being presented with three options does not mean that all of them stand an equal chance of occurring.

And yes, for all intents and purposes, from our POV its a die roll.

Then I'll consider myself lucky that FFG's business decisions aren't in your hands.

IMO

i believe FFG has or is considering a 3rd faction.

but i also believe that they would not introduce a 3rd faction if it were to effect the balance they have created.

i see them spending hours upon hours of time play testing and debating, as we are, how the game would benefit from any particular ship being released as part of a new faction or in the current fleets they already have.

i am confident that if it were to have any negative effect on the game they would not do it. on the flip side, if they debates and testing showed it added to the game, we will see a 3rd faction.

we can only wait and see what FFG decides to do. we can go back and forth, but in the end its up to them.

we have seen demand change their minds, points to epic ships, in the past. but it also created a whole new game play.

i say we agree to disagree and let FFG decide if its viable, that is what they do.

And yes, for all intents and purposes, from our POV its a die roll.

Then I'll consider myself lucky that FFG's business decisions aren't in your hands.

First, how does the game "Radically change" with the introduction of a third faction? Does that somehow change the rules? would we no longer put down dials secretly and then reveal them in PS order? Would the mechanics of the game change in any way? I fail to see how the mechanics of the game would be touched at all. Even now, you can remove all the Star Wars flavour from the game, and mechanically, its a great game. Make it a Babylon 5 game, sure. Make it a Battlestar Galactica game, sure. Same game. The rules dont change.

Just the fluff. So mechanically, adding a third faction will not touch the rules at all. (Beyond adding new ship rules, which would happen if the ships were released for the Empire or Rebels.)

Then taking the question you are asking: What is more likely to happen? a) End of the World b) No change really, game still rocks, and/or c) OMG this game got even better! Two of those options are good! If the game doesnt improve, or get worse, then there is no negative impact. FFG has more stuff to sell. If the game gets better, everyone wins.

You people are too $%@&ing pessimistic.

What would a 3rd faction offer the game, if one were made? I'd like to hear some ideas, other then 'more variety' or something similarly vague. I'd especially like to hear ideas about stuff a 3rd faction would offer that the current 2 can't.

I already did this. Currently each faction has unique flavour.

Rebels prioritize the lives of their crew. Rebel ships have good shields and strong main guns.

Empire do not value life. Shields cost more than people. Empire ships are fast and nimble.

The Fringe prioritize practicality and firepower. I would give them, by default 2 modificiation options, and some Fringer only mods. Say an engine that can boost for 2. Kamakazee upgrades that let you do one last manuever after your ship dies, and if you can over lap something it takes an automatic hit? Modifications that a ship doesnt receive stress when making red manuevers but can rattle apart. Maybe let a large ship carry 2 cannons or turrets (only one can fire each turn, but you can choose which to use.) Imagine an autoblaster and a HLC on the same ship.

So the Fringe would be full of barebone ships that you can add upgrades to to make them how you need them. That would totally be cool, and very different from anything we currently have. And it wouldnt make sense for that to exist in Rebel or Imperial fleets.

First, how does the game "Radically change" with the introduction of a third faction? Does that somehow change the rules? would we no longer put down dials secretly and then reveal them in PS order? Would the mechanics of the game change in any way? I fail to see how the mechanics of the game would be touched at all. Even now, you can remove all the Star Wars flavour from the game, and mechanically, its a great game. Make it a Babylon 5 game, sure. Make it a Battlestar Galactica game, sure. Same game. The rules dont change.

Just the fluff. So mechanically, adding a third faction will not touch the rules at all. (Beyond adding new ship rules, which would happen if the ships were released for the Empire or Rebels.)

Then taking the question you are asking: What is more likely to happen? a) End of the World b) No change really, game still rocks, and/or c) OMG this game got even better! Two of those options are good! If the game doesnt improve, or get worse, then there is no negative impact. FFG has more stuff to sell. If the game gets better, everyone wins.

You people are too $%@&ing pessimistic.

What would a 3rd faction offer the game, if one were made? I'd like to hear some ideas, other then 'more variety' or something similarly vague. I'd especially like to hear ideas about stuff a 3rd faction would offer that the current 2 can't.

I already did this. Currently each faction has unique flavour.

Rebels prioritize the lives of their crew. Rebel ships have good shields and strong main guns.

Empire do not value life. Shields cost more than people. Empire ships are fast and nimble.

The Fringe prioritize practicality and firepower. I would give them, by default 2 modificiation options, and some Fringer only mods. Say an engine that can boost for 2. Deadman switches that blow up like a mine when a ship dies. Modifications that a ship doesnt receive stress when making red manuevers but can rattle apart. Maybe let a large ship carry 2 cannons or turrets (only one can fire each turn, but you can choose which to use.) Imagine an autoblaster and a HLC on the same ship.

So the Fringe would be full of barebone ships that you can add upgrades to to make them how you need them. That would totally be cool, and very different from anything we currently have. And it wouldnt make sense for that to exist in Rebel or Imperial fleets.

First, how does the game "Radically change" with the introduction of a third faction? Does that somehow change the rules? would we no longer put down dials secretly and then reveal them in PS order? Would the mechanics of the game change in any way? I fail to see how the mechanics of the game would be touched at all. Even now, you can remove all the Star Wars flavour from the game, and mechanically, its a great game. Make it a Babylon 5 game, sure. Make it a Battlestar Galactica game, sure. Same game. The rules dont change.

Just the fluff. So mechanically, adding a third faction will not touch the rules at all. (Beyond adding new ship rules, which would happen if the ships were released for the Empire or Rebels.)

Then taking the question you are asking: What is more likely to happen? a) End of the World b) No change really, game still rocks, and/or c) OMG this game got even better! Two of those options are good! If the game doesnt improve, or get worse, then there is no negative impact. FFG has more stuff to sell. If the game gets better, everyone wins.

You people are too $%@&ing pessimistic.

What would a 3rd faction offer the game, if one were made? I'd like to hear some ideas, other then 'more variety' or something similarly vague. I'd especially like to hear ideas about stuff a 3rd faction would offer that the current 2 can't.

I already did this. Currently each faction has unique flavour.

Rebels prioritize the lives of their crew. Rebel ships have good shields and strong main guns.

Empire do not value life. Shields cost more than people. Empire ships are fast and nimble.

The Fringe prioritize practicality and firepower. I would give them, by default 2 modificiation options, and some Fringer only mods. Say an engine that can boost for 2. Kamakazee upgrades that let you do one last manuever after your ship dies, and if you can over lap something it takes an automatic hit? Modifications that a ship doesnt receive stress when making red manuevers but can rattle apart. Maybe let a large ship carry 2 cannons or turrets (only one can fire each turn, but you can choose which to use.) Imagine an autoblaster and a HLC on the same ship.

So the Fringe would be full of barebone ships that you can add upgrades to to make them how you need them. That would totally be cool, and very different from anything we currently have. And it wouldnt make sense for that to exist in Rebel or Imperial fleets.

i want to like this twice

First, how does the game "Radically change" with the introduction of a third faction? Does that somehow change the rules? would we no longer put down dials secretly and then reveal them in PS order? Would the mechanics of the game change in any way? I fail to see how the mechanics of the game would be touched at all. Even now, you can remove all the Star Wars flavour from the game, and mechanically, its a great game. Make it a Babylon 5 game, sure. Make it a Battlestar Galactica game, sure. Same game. The rules dont change.

That's just it, I don't want to play a Babylon 5 game, or Battlestar Galactica. I play the game because it's good, and because it's X-Wing. If you introduce elements that take away from what makes it X-Wing, you also take away a good part of my incentive for playing. That's change I don't want, and none of us need.

Part of the business decision making process is how to satisfy the most number of people. Introducing a third faction accomplishes nothing that adding new ships to the existing factions wouldn't (apart from this nebulous "feeling" concept), but does stand to alienate players like myself who are more than satisfied with the way things currently are. Never mind the initial monetary investment required to play a third faction, after having already spent hundreds of dollars on the current lineup. So, FFG can keep doing what they're already doing and everyone wins, or they can potentially lose business by overextending themselves and alienating a portion of the player base. Which of those sounds like the smarter business decision?

You guys realize that if a third faction is introduced, you don't HAVE to play them?

And you really don't. You might buy them because of neat upgrade cards, but that issue already exists if you're primarily imp/rebel.

Seriously guys, this isn't rocket science OR worth getting worked up about! Stop calling each other names, it's crazy.

This is all from memory though, so that's why I say it's an admittedly weak argument.

Regarding the HWK, I remember MM having them out of stock at one point. Not that that means it needed a reprint, just that MM had to order more.The problem with the HWK though as a test case of EU popularity, is that the ship itself while seemingly popular around here anyway. Lots of people have lists with it. Few people seem to have a need for more then 1 or 2 of them.As a support ship, it makes sense that it wouldn't sell as well as a OT ship would. Plus by the time Wave 3 came out, FFG had a much better feel for the demand of their ships and as such I'm sure produced more.The true test of the EU ships is going to be Wave 4. All of them are ships you can use multiples of, especially the Z, but even then I would expect that they won't need to reprint any time soon, because they have a much better feel for how many to make, and do a better job of matching demand then they did with wave 1 or 2.

This is true of the TIE Advanced, yet they've reprinted it multiple times

You guys realize that if a third faction is introduced, you don't HAVE to play them?

And you really don't. You might buy them because of neat upgrade cards, but that issue already exists if you're primarily imp/rebel.

Seriously guys, this isn't rocket science OR worth getting worked up about! Stop calling each other names, it's crazy.

I don't have to buy it either.

You guys realize that if a third faction is introduced, you don't HAVE to play them?

That line of thinking simply does not work in this game. Not unless you get everyone else you play with to agree with you.

Do you honestly think you can walk into a LGS sit down and demand that someone else play a different list, because you don't like the one they have? It was a nonsense argument made in support of ISD's and it's a nonsense argument here for the same reason.

This is true of the TIE Advanced, yet they've reprinted it multiple times

How many times? Also it's a wave 1 ship so it's likely that they produced fewer of them then they did HWK's, they've said more then once they were not anywhere nearly prepared for the demand when they started selling this game.

I find it interesting that whenever there seems to be a heated debate on this board that the one guy who has repeatedly shown no ability to see things from someone else's point of view has thrown himself into the middle of it.

A guy who reports people for having a sense of humor different to his and thinks we give a ____ what he thinks.

You cannot reason with an unreasonable person, so guys. Stop trying to reason with the ork.

He has made up his mind and he isn't going to change it.

Best case scenario = FFG decides a 3rd faction is a good idea. They release ships for it, then the ork stops playing the game, then i get to stop reading his post VIA people quoting him to try and reason with him. That in its self is worth having a 3rd faction.

peace out homies

Wonderwaaaaaaaaugh,

Is there any way in which FFG could satisfy you with a third faction?

oh, and no need quoting this guys post saying he is reporting me, i know its coming.

Small companies in risky markets have to take risks.

Yes, but at the same time, a small company with a killer product should really think hard before they make many changes to that product.Lets see where this goes...What would a 3rd faction offer the game, if one were made? I'd like to hear some ideas, other then 'more variety' or something similarly vague. I'd especially like to hear ideas about stuff a 3rd faction would offer that the current 2 can't.

As I've said, feeling unnaligned. A big part of Star Wars was about the underworld, and shoehorning most of that into the Empire or Rebellion feels off. So far they've only really done this with the Firespray pilots. And it irks me that I can't run a Fett Solo list.

It gives nuetral characters a place. There are any number of those in the films and more in the EU. There was more going on in the Universe than this conflict and the game so far doesn't represent that.

The next thing it offers is faction parity via mercenary units. This applies to characters like Dengar, zuccus+ and 4lom. They worked for both sides in their character arcs. Representing that via mercenary units offers a variety of unique abilities without worrying that the other side needs an equivalent.

It offers a lot of civilian level modified craft. Many of these, like the uglies, have unique designs and feature heavily in works about spacebattles. The Xwinged ties(Deathseeds) are some of my favorites.

I don't think a full third faction is a good idea. But I think a mercenary ship, a rebel, and an imperial per wave offers a lot of potential to the game.

Just saying.

Sure in the starwar universe there is all kinds of characters, stories, and lore.

Like any story, game or whatever, you usually have to focus somewhere and on something.

Ffg decided to focus on the rebellion Era against the empire.

Just like you see in video games and in other sources you mostly see characters such as boba fett as the "bad guys" even though they really aren't. How many times have I played a game only to fight boba fett as a vilian. Don't remember him ever offering tea and a welcome party.

This applies to this game and the time it seems to focus on and what is most familiar to fans.

Just because you and others read the books doesn't mean everyone had and the movies are probably the best source material and something Everyone can relate to.

Which is why I said if you see 4lom, don't be surprised to see him in the empire side. Because in ESB he is working with the villains.

Now if they decide to take the game further and go 5-10 years after Rotj then maybe we would see BH on the good side.

As it is now that's how it is, and I'm afraid for those who would want another faction, there not going to be.

Only way I see another faction is if they focus on a different time /story and that will probably be a whole separate game

You guys realize that if a third faction is introduced, you don't HAVE to play them?

That line of thinking simply does not work in this game. Not unless you get everyone else you play with to agree with you.Do you honestly think you can walk into a LGS sit down and demand that someone else play a different list, because you don't like the one they have? It was a nonsense argument made in support of ISD's and it's a nonsense argument here for the same reason.

This is true of the TIE Advanced, yet they've reprinted it multiple times

How many times? Also it's a wave 1 ship so it's likely that they produced fewer of them then they did HWK's, they've said more then once they were not anywhere nearly prepared for the demand when they started selling this game.

Twice, both after wave 3 was released.

When faced with the possibility of introducing radical change into a system which already works incredibly well, which is the most natural assumption: that the game will a) stay the same, b) get even better, or c) get worse?

Your entire issue is an inability to see that we are really talking about a very very small change in how FFG actually develop the game. All you can see are the much larger end user perception changes and the fact that you don't like the idea personally is blinding you to the realities.

So, FFG can keep doing what they're already doing and everyone wins, or they can potentially lose business by overextending themselves and alienating a portion of the player base.

Or they can bring in new blood to the game expanding the community even more.

The question of whether there should be more factions depends on FFG's long term goals for X-Wing

Are they trying to create a lasting system, like Warhammer, 40k, Magic, Warmachine, Flames of War, etc.

Or will the game have a cut off point.

If they want this game to have longevity, then it is time for more factions.

And it should not just be just 1 extra faction. It should be 2 or more. With the game system, still in it's infancy at 2 years old, this is the ideal time. When Warmachine was 2 or 3 years old, Hordes was introduced.

I cannot see this game continuing to enjoy its popularity in 5 years time, if it's still just 2 factions.

Are there any miniature game systems out there that have survived for the long haul with just 2 factions?

People want variety.

Also, I don't understand why there are a few people so vehemently opposed to extra factions. If someone only likes 2 factions, then just buy the 2 factions. It's just like the anti-EU players – they don't need to buy a Moldy Crow or TIE Phantom (which I just picked up!)

It's not that I'm against having the other faction

I just don't see it happening.

I think they have a long ways to go before we have to worry about that

If anything I'm more worried about Disney putting an end to it

Really it would be a simple feat to do. All that needs done is the base plates. Make that an expansion set and boom new faction of mercs/smugglers/bounty hunters. Make it into 2-3 sets and price it at 10-20 dollars depending on how much they decide to put into it the pack or give the same pilot different ships. Before anyone says anything about having two of the same pilot well that would be a main rule point. Only one pilot of the same name even if it's a different ship. Then throw in some generic bounty hunter smuggler pilots for the lower end and call it a day. The idea is the easy part but testing and balance would be what actually takes time.