but without knowing how limited it doesn't mean anything.

Of course it does. There's a limited market for X-Wing like there is every other luxury item out there. I mean this is just basic common sense here, not some abstract econ 305 thing.

The best FFG could hope for with a 3rd faction is sales around the same that they got with Wave 1, 2 and 3. Wave 4 may or may not sell as well as the others, we'll never know that for sure.

But the idea that somehow a 3rd faction would sell better then Wave 1 or 2 is simply ludicrous, but I'm sure you'd agree with that. So again, it would at best sell as well, but would most likely sell worse then the OT stuff would, because it's EU, and because it's a 3rd faction.

Again, just based on what I see in terms of enthusiasm for anything that this game is putting out, there will be enough demand to justify the supply of a third faction with ships.

And again, that's an assumption on your part, and one you're making with someone else's money. It's pretty safe for you to say that, because you're not the one who's going to see your bottom line hurt if your wrong.

But it is almost a given that a 3rd faction would not sell as well, even if only slightly so. It would also have an increase cost for new packaging and the like. Both of those things can be at least partly avoided by producing new ships but keeping them in the existing factions.

Also what Krynn007 said isn't circular reasoning. If FFG has no interest in making a 3rd faction which is something they have said in the past, that means they won't make one. I don't see how you could possibly consider that to be circular in nature...

Once again, the bottom line is this.

No one has yet to offer anything that a 3rd faction would accomplish that simply releasing the same ships as part of the existing factions wouldn't. So at that point there is no need for one.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't do one, if they could come up with something that makes a 3rd faction better then the above option then such a thing might be a good idea.

Say what ya want.

I'm just saying not going to happen.

Feel free to speculate. Nothing wrong with that

The game is called xwing.

Not xwing vs the space pirates.

As soon as you hear X wing for most the original movies come to mind.

Not xwing vs the hutts or anything else.

But I just don't see any other faction appearing.

Unless they decide to do another game, be it based on episode 1-3, or maybe go farther back into kotor Era.

As long as their main focus is on the rebels vs empire that's how it's going to stay

My personal opinion the other faction would sell, but only to those who care enough about that.

As much as I love star wars, I don't really care about having hutts,smugglers,or pirates in the game.

I'd be even more pissed to the point where I'd probably stop playing if forced to buy into the third faction just to get upgrades.

Which is the only way I could see it. In order to increase sales they would probably include things that the other factions would use / want.

I don't think I'd be alone on that matter

The best FFG could hope for with a 3rd faction is sales around the same that they got with Wave 1, 2 and 3. Wave 4 may or may not sell as well as the others, we'll never know that for sure.But the idea that somehow a 3rd faction would sell better then Wave 1 or 2 is simply ludicrous, but I'm sure you'd agree with that. So again, it would at best sell as well, but would most likely sell worse then the OT stuff would, because it's EU, and because it's a 3rd faction.

But that isn't relevant because they have exhausted the OT film ships already. The question you should be asking is whether or not the fringe faction ships would sell better than whatever they do end up doing for wave 6+. Nothing they produce from this point forward is going to sell better than the wave 1-3 stuff did, unless legitimate power creep starts showing up, and I think we can all agree that would be terrible.

but without knowing how limited it doesn't mean anything.

Of course it does. There's a limited market for X-Wing like there is every other luxury item out there. I mean this is just basic common sense here, not some abstract econ 305 thing.

There's a limited demand for all of the products in this game line. That doesn't mean they're not being produced and sold. And the stuff I mentioned would be in Econ 101.

But you're right, I don't expect that it would sell as well as waves 1,2, and 3. However, not selling as well, might still be well enough to justify the cost of doing so. Just because zucchinis don't sell as well as tomatoes doesn't mean that farmers stop producing zucchinis. Is that sufficiently common sense?

Also what Krynn007 said isn't circular reasoning. If FFG has no interest in making a 3rd faction which is something they have said in the past, that means they won't make one. I don't see how you could possibly consider that to be circular in nature...

What Krynn007 said is the very definition of circular reasoning.

Now, by adding the statement: "FFG said", then you're actually providing information on which to ground an argument. But if you say " Its not going to happen " because " The [sic] are keeping it betwee [sic] the rebels and the empire .", where ' it ' is ' keeping it betwee [sic] the rebels and the empire ', then it is a circular argument.

But, fair enough, FFG said something. Can you point me to the press release, so that I can shut up about this 15-page topic already?

You know, it seems to me that we're all ignoring one inconvenient fact. No matter what FFG does with respect to factions and more ships, the lifespan of X-Wing is not indefinite. Say that they do create a third faction, and that they do produce all of these obscure EU ships. What then? The game will still reach a definite end point, and we'll have to come to terms with that sooner or later. We're all just assuming, or perhaps hoping, that it's going to be later. And, to that end, many people also seem to be assuming that FFG is going to produce these obscure ships just to prolong the game's life.

The question I'm asking myself right now is, would I be happy if the Decimator and YT-2400 are the two very last ships we'll see? I think maybe I could. I definitely could if more releases meant a slow degradation of the game. I mean, I'm still happy playing with what I've got right now, and wave 3 has been out for almost a year now. I'm not saying that a third faction will automatically put X-Wing into a permanent nosedive, but the game will stagnate at a certain point. It's just a matter of when we choose to accept that fact. So, do we go out on top like Bjorn Borg, or do we wait until FFG has exhausted every last source - including, perhaps, the prequels - before we call it quits?

the lifespan of X-Wing is not indefinite.

The game will still reach a definite end point, and we'll have to come to terms with that sooner or later.

This is completely true.

My personal hope/pipe dream is that when it happens, they relaunch the game in their own Twilight Imperium universe, but that is a whole other topic.

So, do we go out on top like Bjorn Borg, or do we wait until FFG has exhausted every last source - including, perhaps, the prequels - before we call it quits?

Hm, that rather pessimisting post requires a personal, rather than collective, answer. 'We' will continue until the very last miniature is sold. You and I will probably have checked out long before then.

For all we know, Disney may have told FFG to peddle what they can peddle because the license will not be renewed. (This is pure speculation in a what-if scenario. Please don't take it as anything more than that.) At that point, FFG has the incentive to milk it for all it's worth and then let it drop.

At the same time - the way that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay existed for a long time - this game may fall into the hands of fans and 3D printers, having a long and cult existence. I think I would enjoy such a cult existence, provided the cult was good.

It is a very personal question. I, personally, would rather FFG quit while the game is still amazing, rather than risk letting it slip into shoddy territory.

At the same time - the way that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay existed for a long time - this game may fall into the hands of fans and 3D printers, having a long and cult existence. I think I would enjoy such a cult existence, provided the cult was good.

That would be a fascinating way to end a game. FFG announces that they are stopping production of the game 1 year after wave 11 is released, and to cap it off they release a license agreement making the game open source like the OGL and an official card generator app for producing your own ship cards.

That would be pretty freakin' cool of them.

It is a very personal question. I, personally, would rather FFG quit while the game is still amazing, rather than risk letting it slip into shoddy territory.

Yes, I think we would agree on that. And they have an incentive to stop before it gets really bad in order to maintain their reputation. However, they also have an incentive to milk it for all it's worth.

But how close to that point do you think we are? I'm not the biggest fan of Wave 4 or 5, but I don't get the sense that we're hitting the mark where the game is going to necessarily go downhill.

At the same time - the way that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay existed for a long time - this game may fall into the hands of fans and 3D printers, having a long and cult existence. I think I would enjoy such a cult existence, provided the cult was good.

That would be a fascinating way to end a game. FFG announces that they are stopping production of the game 1 year after wave 11 is released, and to cap it off they release a license agreement making the game open source like the OGL and an official card generator app for producing your own ship cards.

That would be pretty freakin' cool of them.

Well the old Star Trek CCG by Decipher pretty much functions like that now - they have a Continuing Committee that releases expansions that people print themselves and even have tournaments. It is cool and I'm sure if FFG cancelled X-Wing that many of us who still wished to play would eventually do something very similar.

However, back to the original topic:

Suppose it's not just a 3rd faction, but multiple extra factions similar to Star Trek Attack Wing. Maybe we'll see 5 factions within the next few years.... (I doubt it, but maybe).

I do expect that the main reason that we haven't seen the bounty hunter ships yet is that they probably made a decision at some point AFTER making the Slave-1 expansion to do BH's as a separate faction... because if not I'd have expected the Hound's Tooth to show up long before EU stuff like the VT-49.

I'm not really seeing how what I said I'd circular reasoning.

My point is they are not going to make a third faction

Why?

Because it's focused on a specific theme for one. Two I think for most introducing a third faction kind of goes against the main theme which ffg had incorporated.

Three some players just won't care. Just like wave four some have already expressed their displeasure on the new ships because they are not familiar with them.

It would only be more so with a third faction.

And lastly, looking at costs and running a business, I don't think it would be worth their time and effort.

What I think we will see is new ships introduced in both sides.

The rebels don't have the financial income like the empire so any ship they can get goes towards the rebellion.

The empire has lots of ships to choose from. They are a war machine after all.

And after ffg had exhausted all means (and their license hasn't run out) They can introduce new pilots.

New prints like the Ace pack.

Or even update old pilots.

Rotj Luke or something along those lines.

I think what we should be more concerned is the licensing run out before they exhaust all ships

Suppose it's not just a 3rd faction, but multiple extra factions similar to Star Trek Attack Wing. Maybe we'll see 5 factions within the next few years.... (I doubt it, but maybe).

Ok, yeah, that would be pretty terrible. Star Wars has never really been a big multi-national story with lots different political groups. They exist in the universe, but it isn't really about them.

because if not I'd have expected the Hound's Tooth to show up long before EU stuff like the VT-49.

Eh, one EU ship or another. Sticking with a very Imperial looking one for the Empire makes more sense than a random bounty hunter ship for the Empire, regardless of what they intend toward the fringe faction.

Well the old Star Trek CCG by Decipher pretty much functions like that now - they have a Continuing Committee that releases expansions that people print themselves and even have tournaments. It is cool and I'm sure if FFG cancelled X-Wing that many of us who still wished to play would eventually do something very similar.

Huh, I'm amazed the game had enough players to do that. On the other hand, it did have some interesting ideas, get Decipher itself out of it and there were interesting things that could be done.

Props to them for the name though.

At the same time - the way that Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay existed for a long time - this game may fall into the hands of fans and 3D printers, having a long and cult existence. I think I would enjoy such a cult existence, provided the cult was good.

That would be a fascinating way to end a game. FFG announces that they are stopping production of the game 1 year after wave 11 is released, and to cap it off they release a license agreement making the game open source like the OGL and an official card generator app for producing your own ship cards.

That would be pretty freakin' cool of them.

Well the old Star Trek CCG by Decipher pretty much functions like that now - they have a Continuing Committee that releases expansions that people print themselves and even have tournaments. It is cool and I'm sure if FFG cancelled X-Wing that many of us who still wished to play would eventually do something very similar.

However, back to the original topic:

Suppose it's not just a 3rd faction, but multiple extra factions similar to Star Trek Attack Wing. Maybe we'll see 5 factions within the next few years.... (I doubt it, but maybe).

I do expect that the main reason that we haven't seen the bounty hunter ships yet is that they probably made a decision at some point AFTER making the Slave-1 expansion to do BH's as a separate faction... because if not I'd have expected the Hound's Tooth to show up long before EU stuff like the VT-49.

Edit: The Axis & Allies miniatures guys make their own high quality maps and unit card decks long after Avalon Hill stopped production.

i would rather see another game, designed to be compatible with this one if you wish.

lets call it "Gunship"

starter set comes with 1 republic gunship and 2 vulture droids

this game can cover episode 1-3 era.

i would love to get my hands on an arc-fighter and Jedi interceptor. they can dig into the clone wars series for some cool ships as well. like the retro y-wing, that was cool

the only sad thing is the separatists didn't have any really cool ships.

What I thought would be cool is if they made ground forces incorporate into the main game

Played on a 6x3 area like epic play. One half could be the atmosphere and the other half the surface.

Certain ships could go down to the surface and others cannot. However the ones that cannot could provide some kind of support to the ground units.

Making it even all the more reason to take out those support ships.

That would be pretty cool, and still they could focus on the empire vs rebels.

Also if you didn't want to play a epic style battle, you could play either variation. Space or ground battles, or both

It is a very personal question. I, personally, would rather FFG quit while the game is still amazing, rather than risk letting it slip into shoddy territory.

Do you just mean, "prequel and EU stuff I don't like," or do you mean, allowing the game and its mechanics to deteriorate into an unplayable mess of imbalance?

Because, if you mean the former, then it's just a matter of taste, and there's nothing to argue with there.

If you mean the latter, I think there is evidence that each release is stronger and more balanced than the last, with more meaningful choices, while remaining true to the underlying mythology to a great degree. I don't think you will see prequel stuff unless it's a seperate game, because they have been pretty consistent with keeping it in a particular era of the fictional setting. I obviously think that any future releases will be EU stuff, because what else is there? OK, there's "Rebels" and the Sequel trilogy, so maybe we will see that, but I still think not because of the time setting.

X-Wing is already FFG's best selling game and it's among top sellers among for all miniatures game.

I can think of 2 reasons why FFG would release a 3rd faction and they're not mutually exclusive.

1. Short term: Make more money now.
2. Long term: Secure the longevity of the game

For the first point, I don't think a 3rd faction, since it's so polarizing would make more money for them then say dedicating those same resources to another wave of Rebel and Imperial ships.

For the second point, if this game is to survive into the roaring 20's, I think it'll need more factions. It doesn't seem 2 factions will keep players interested in the long term. Players want variety, which is why the game was suffering from a drop off after wave 3, but is seeing a huge resurgence with all the new releases.

Why on Earth would anyone think we are going to run out of creative space for this game? If Lucas were still calling all the shots there would be a chance, but even with him there was the entire EU. Disney is not famous for boxing itself into a corner. They have spent a ton of money on the rights to Star Wars and other valuable franchises, and if we look at what they do with them there is absolutely no reason for pessimism.

Disney has consistently expanded the scope of their franchises, while maintaining quality. Marvel has done nothing but get better, the Avengers is awesome and getting better, all of their previous intellectual properties have grown and matured over the years. We have at LEAST 6 years and 6 movies coming out to expand the Star Wars canon, plus at least one book series. Does anyone seriously think all of these creative teams are going to just stare at one another and think "Oh man, if only there were some new ships or organizations we could write into the stories, but I'm afraid an ENTIRE GALAXY filled with tens of thousands of alien races just doesn't have the room for more than two sides...."

Good grief. As for sales of a new faction, all of the doomsayers base their opinions on the idea of a static market. But by adding a third faction, you do nothing to decrease the current selection while simultaneously adding an element that could appeal to folks who are not currently playing. The two big measures are market share, and market SIZE. Expanding the market is a good idea, period.

I 100% agree, even only 4 waves in we’re rapidly burning through existing Rebel and Imperial starfighter classes (hell, we’re already into the Expanded Universe, not that there’s anything bad about that). Adding additional factions, and possibly reprinting the Firespray-31 and YT-1300 at least to include additional cards for Fringe pilots (pirates, mercenaries, bounty hunters, etc) gives the game far more range and diversity, and opens up the possibility of including characters and ships active during the Galactic Civil War, but not aligned with the Rebels or Empire.

...

More money for FFG, more ships to build our squads with, and a faction that can be used individually OR add diversity to existing Rebel and Empire fleets with the ships.

Yes, here I think is where I remain: repaints of some existing models; new pilots, and a few new ships. That's nothing that's going to break the system.

….such as Prince Xizor and Black Sun with ships like the Starviper-Class Attack Platform/Virago,...

...ehm...

And here's where I start to go along with the 'no'-crowd. The starviper... blech.

So, I suppose, again, I should be careful what I wish for.

Now, the Gozanti cruiser I can get behind.

Your counterargument is that the volume for that stuff is not all that large.

No my argument is that the fact that someone is able to sell something, is not evidence of the size of the market wanting that something. That's the whole point behind the FW reference... Just someone wants them, isn't proof of the size of the market.

Okay, so your argument is not that there isn't a big enough market, but that we don't know if there is. That's find and granted, but you don't offer an argument that there isn't sufficient market for fringy ships.

Do we know anything about current sales? Are there some ships that are absolutely flopping, or is everybody pretty much buying everything? If the latter, why would fringy ships be any different?

but what's your argument that it wouldn't sell?

No my argument is that I don't think it would sell better as a 3rd faction then it would if it was part of the existing factions, and as such there's no real compelling reason from a business POV to include one.

Fair enough, but what do you base that argument on?

Fringy just don't appear to be as popular

Can you be happy using the Firespray, YTs, HWK, etc as unaffiliated ships in house rules? Must FFG release a third faction that everyone else has to deal with?

I just think it would be a great way for them to put more fringy ships out there, which also double as civilian/on-combatant ships as plot devices in missions.

Sithborg, others, and I have asked no less than four times already, and I don't believe anyone has answered yet: how does a third faction introduce fringe ships in a way that the current Imperial/Rebel dichotomy does not? If bounty hunters were released with Imperials and smugglers with Rebels as has already been done, how is this in any way inferior to creating a third faction just for them?

I really don't think they need to create entirely new ships, just some third, or neutral faction pilots for some of the existing ships. I don't know if it really adds anything to the game from a tactical end, but it would allow for more campaigns and missions, and there's a lot of players who like that aspect

Playstyle-wise, since rebels buff eachother, and imperials buff themselves, fringers could de-buff others. They could use tractor beams (barrel roll your target towards you), have ways to disable ships (slicers, deal faceup damage cards, remove target locks), raiding parties that board huge ships (docking maneuver & boarding action, then steal cargo, kidnap crew, etc). Honestly, there's a lot you could do with it.

I actually have a weak argument that the fringy ships aren't selling well compared to identifiably rebel or imperial. I haven't seen the HWK get reprinted (this is where it's weak, I may have just missed it) but I have seen every current movie faction iconic ship be reprinted including the huge ships that just came out, and some more than once. I don't think the firespray has been reprinted, while the Falcon has, despite most hardcore players buying more firesprays than Falcons. Even the Shuttle got reprinted

Fringy just don't appear to be as popular

Now that's valuable information.

Where are you getting it?

Fringe is also for more experienced players, I have noticed and it's my own opinion those ships require more finesse then normal iconic ships

I really want a truly smuggler/bounty hunter faction and have been working on creating house rules for this idea

I also want to see a Wookie Empire fleet but I know I'm dreaming there lol

Think of it...

Blow up a Wookie ship and he floats thru space and rips off your cockpit canopy in vengeance and probably than an a limb or two

Your counterargument is that the volume for that stuff is not all that large.

No my argument is that the fact that someone is able to sell something, is not evidence of the size of the market wanting that something. That's the whole point behind the FW reference... Just someone wants them, isn't proof of the size of the market.

Okay, so your argument is not that there isn't a big enough market, but that we don't know if there is. That's find and granted, but you don't offer an argument that there isn't sufficient market for fringy ships.

Do we know anything about current sales? Are there some ships that are absolutely flopping, or is everybody pretty much buying everything? If the latter, why would fringy ships be any different?

but what's your argument that it wouldn't sell?

No my argument is that I don't think it would sell better as a 3rd faction then it would if it was part of the existing factions, and as such there's no real compelling reason from a business POV to include one.

Fair enough, but what do you base that argument on?

I actually have a weak argument that the fringy ships aren't selling well compared to identifiably rebel or imperial. I haven't seen the HWK get reprinted (this is where it's weak, I may have just missed it) but I have seen every current movie faction iconic ship be reprinted including the huge ships that just came out, and some more than once. I don't think the firespray has been reprinted, while the Falcon has, despite most hardcore players buying more firesprays than Falcons. Even the Shuttle got reprinted

Fringy just don't appear to be as popular