An irrelevant point, as we're not discussing price here.

The point wasn't the price, the point was that just because someone buys something, doesn't mean there's a huge market for it.

If these things were official, that would be a different story.

While it's possible, that's hardly a strong argument in favor of adding them to the game as another faction.

An irrelevant point, as we're not discussing price here.

The point wasn't the price, the point was that just because someone buys something, doesn't mean there's a huge market for it.

But there is a substantial market for X-Wing miniatures in general - such that I'd be willing to bet you even if they released an unpopular faction - that it would still sell extremely well.

you'd be fine with it so long as they were all released as Rebel only ships?

I'd be fine with that sure. I'd also be fine with them adding them as a 3rd faction. My point which you seem to either miss are intentionally are avoiding, is that you don't need a 3rd faction to put those ships in the game.

No more then FFG needed one to release the Firespray or Z-95.

Sure all those ships could be used as part of a 3rd faction but considering the nature of the Rebel Alliance, they'd all also fit there, it's not like the RA would of never have used them. They would of used any ship they could of gotten their hands on.

such that I'd be willing to bet you even if they released an unpopular faction - that it would still sell extremely well.

I'm sure they would. But would a R-41 Starchaser sell better as part of the Pirate Faction then it would as part of the Rebel Faction?

If not, then is it worth the cost of making a 3rd faction when there's no increased return in sales?

You're not the only one scratching your head at some of the inclusions;and that's the problem of fan made material, it will always be fundamentally inferior to official rules...

I wouldn't say ALWAYS. I know of one or two 40K fan supplements that are better than what GW itself puts out (low bar, I know), but yeah, it is a significant issue with fan made stuff and requires several people who are both enthusiastic about the project AND professional enough to reject things. (not to mention a bunch of other people to playtest the stuff)

If these things were official, that would be a different story.

While it's possible, that's hardly a strong argument in favor of adding them to the game as another faction.

I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.

My argument, and that of Crabbok I believe, is that there is demand for pirate/criminal/fringe stuff. He supports his argument by saying that there are 3rd parties making money off this stuff. Your counterargument is that the volume for that stuff is not all that large. My counterargument to your counterargument is that you can't look at the lack of volume of sales of third party stuff as indicative of a lack of demand. As unsanctioned 3rd party stuff, it naturally has a lot going against it.

While we can't say for sure if the demand for fringe stuff would be strong if produced, you can make the case against any new material as not being a 'strong argument in favor'. There are huge arguments against huge ships (they can't be played in the dominant form of play in this game), yet, from what I've seen, they're selling like hot cakes, even if few people seem to be playing them.

If 3rd faction stuff were playable in tournament-style games, I'm pretty sure they'd sell better than the huge ships are doing. Granted, it's supposition, but what's your argument that it wouldn't sell?

If not, then is it worth the cost of making a 3rd faction when there's no increased return in sales?

There would be hardly any increased cost. Maybe a little bit on initial release, but other than that its basically just branding. The designers are going to be designing new ships one way or the other, the graphic designers would be doing the same job either way, the preview articles will still be written.

Like I said above, the fringer faction would give them an outlet for doing some of those oddball ships that don't "quite" fit either of the 2 main factions, and will slow/halt/reverse the dilution of the existing factions, thus prolonging the lifespan of the game.

BUT, once again I say, it doesn't really matter as FFG has given absolutely no indication that they are, and a fair amount of evidence they aren't, going to release the fringe faction.

A lack of a third faction doesn't mean those ships won't get made.

While we can't say for sure if the demand for fringe stuff would be strong if produced, you can make the case against any new material as not being a 'strong argument in favor'.

That has been my impression of almost (almost) all of the arguments against the fringe faction, the same argument can be made about any new release.

obviously this is a heavy topic with many opinions.

Personally I don't see why a third faction is a bad idea. FFG really only needs to release some cards and cardboard bases for quite a few of the ships already out and or some completely new ships.

With that being said, I doubt FFG will release a 3rd faction. Just doesn't seem to be in the stars.

With the inclusion of the Correllian Corvette I would love to see multiple factions and being able to switch ships between factions.

A lack of a third faction doesn't mean those ships won't get made.

True, but so few of the fringy ships that can be made are a good fit for the Empire. So, if they produce them, they're more than likely to be put under the Rebels' banner. I don't see that as inherently problematic (even though I play predominantly as Empire), but I can see that being a problem for some.

Your counterargument is that the volume for that stuff is not all that large.

No my argument is that the fact that someone is able to sell something, is not evidence of the size of the market wanting that something. That's the whole point behind the FW reference... Just someone wants them, isn't proof of the size of the market.

but what's your argument that it wouldn't sell?

No my argument is that I don't think it would sell better as a 3rd faction then it would if it was part of the existing factions, and as such there's no real compelling reason from a business POV to include one.

I'll close with this.

Am I against such a thing? No.

Do I want one? meh.

Would I buy some? maybe.

Do we need one? No.

but I can see that being a problem for some.

The only issue would be if they stopped making Imperial ships all together.

I don't think anyone would care any more about the Reb's getting a R-41 then they did them getting Z-95's.

Your counterargument is that the volume for that stuff is not all that large.

No my argument is that the fact that someone is able to sell something, is not evidence of the size of the market wanting that something. That's the whole point behind the FW reference... Just someone wants them, isn't proof of the size of the market.

Okay, so your argument is not that there isn't a big enough market, but that we don't know if there is. That's find and granted, but you don't offer an argument that there isn't sufficient market for fringy ships.

Do we know anything about current sales? Are there some ships that are absolutely flopping, or is everybody pretty much buying everything? If the latter, why would fringy ships be any different?

but what's your argument that it wouldn't sell?

No my argument is that I don't think it would sell better as a 3rd faction then it would if it was part of the existing factions, and as such there's no real compelling reason from a business POV to include one.

Fair enough, but what do you base that argument on?

but you don't offer an argument that there isn't sufficient market for fringy ships.

There may be one there may not. My only point is that the fact that there are some people out there buying some, doesn't mean that there is a huge market for it. Which is what was being implied. That the mere fact someone buys them isn't proof that there's a huge demand for them.

Fair enough, but what do you base that argument on?

Because there's a limited market for X-Wing ships. Being from the EU most likely hurts sales, because there are people out there who won't buy EU only ships, like the E-Wing or Phantom. Maybe not a ton of people, and we'll see Wave 4 sell well. But I think it's safe to say they'll sell fewer E-Wings then they do X-Wings or Tie Interceptors.

Then add to that the fact that if they're sold as a 3rd faction there will be people out there who won't buy them just because they don't want to have to keep up with that 3rd faction.

So at best, fringe ships would sell as well as Wave 4 does, and maybe less well. Which means that FFG gains nothing really by making that 3rd faction. In fact they stand to lose a little, between the cost of new packaging and all, for ships that sell slightly worse.

Blah,

It seems like the tone of the debate has withered again.

Just like playing a game of X-Wing, I'm only interested in playing/debating if it's a friendly affair.

Now for something completely different...

... and everybody say Yatta!

Yatta.

LISTEN MATE

Yatta, which ironically is the name of a Fringe Bounty hunters ship, the Yatta 6 Rusty bullet hole, which appeared For 30 seconds of episode 7 of Season 2 of the clone wars. So if that is not proof that the stars are right and FFG are going to produce a 3rd faction, then I will eat all my Tie Fighters in a crunchy painful baguette.

I think we can now stop this thread right here.

Yatta!

====

VanorDM , so you're good at tearing down other people's positions, but I don't see anything in this that convinces me against a third faction.

Now, I'm not saying that I can do much better, because I don't have anything besides anecdotal evidence.

However, there are many holes in your logic, just as there are holes in the logic of others that you point out. Yes, people's demand for X-Wing miniatures is limited, but without knowing how limited it doesn't mean anything. Right now, it seems like it's a seller's market, with miniatures flying off the shelves - even at the FLGS where prices are as much as 150% of the online prices.

Given that, I don't think you can tread too much water with the limited-market assumption. Now, I certainly hope that demand forthe E-Wing is tepid, because I don't think that ship has any place in the rebellion-era game. I'm also less than enthusiastic for the Defender and the Phantom, but I actually hear of quite a bit of demand for those both on this forum and from people in my local environs. I blame this on people who want to win the game, despite the lack of storyline flavor in those ships. (Of course, I'm speaking from personal opinion here. Some people may really like those ships for storyline flavor purposes.)

But your logic of the EU/Wave 4 stuff being less popular than the older more established stuff only establishes that demand will be less. It doesn't suggest that it won't be worth it to FFG to produce them, given supply/demand price vs. marginal cost. Again, just based on what I see in terms of enthusiasm for anything that this game is putting out, there will be enough demand to justify the supply of a third faction with ships.

I don't see why the big debate

Its not going to happen.

I guess if you like to speculate, but no way will ffg release a third faction.

Why?

Two reasons as I see it.

1) The are keeping it betwee the rebels and the empire.

2) Familiarity. Unless your into EU stuff those who only watched the movies or played some games will not be familiar with nor really care about a new faction.

To some this would also take away the battle of good vs evil.

That's how I see it. Plus there have been other good reasons mentioned, such as the inclusion of a new core set.

Now let's just say they did a third faction.

The wave one release of the new faction would have to release a lot of ships in order to play catch up to the rest of the factions.

Having four ships available for one faction vs 9-10 or whatever for the other seems a little one sided. So if they did release a new wave that wave would need a lot of ships upon release.

A big influx like that would also require a lot of play testing. Something their development team may not want to invest that much effort and time into.

I myself love the star wars universe.

Played every game minus the kotor mmo, and read lots of comics, but I have no desire to see other factions included.

This game still had lots of room to develop and grow.

Speculate all you want, but it's not going to happen

Its not going to happen.

I guess if you like to speculate, but no way will ffg release a third faction.

Why?

Two reasons as I see it.

1) The are keeping it betwee the rebels and the empire.

LISTEN MATE

Yatta, which ironically is the name of a Fringe Bounty hunters ship, the Yatta 6 Rusty bullet hole, which appeared For 30 seconds of episode 7 of Season 2 of the clone wars. So if that is not proof that the stars are right and FFG are going to produce a 3rd faction, then I will eat all my Tie Fighters in a crunchy painful baguette.

I think we can now stop this thread right here.

LISTEN MATE, I've seen your custom-made Yatta 6 Rusty Bullet Hole, and as impressed as I was there's no way it can handle a TIE Fighter baguette.

Yatta.

LISTEN MATE

Yatta, which ironically is the name of a Fringe Bounty hunters ship, the Yatta 6 Rusty bullet hole, which appeared For 30 seconds of episode 7 of Season 2 of the clone wars. So if that is not proof that the stars are right and FFG are going to produce a 3rd faction, then I will eat all my Tie Fighters in a crunchy painful baguette.

I think we can now stop this thread right here.

LISTEN MATE, I've seen your custom-made Yatta 6 Rusty Bullet Hole, and as impressed as I was there's no way it can handle a TIE Fighter baguette.

Yatta.

Are we all friends now?

Now let's just say they did a third faction.

The wave one release of the new faction would have to release a lot of ships in order to play catch up to the rest of the factions.

Having four ships available for one faction vs 9-10 or whatever for the other seems a little one sided. So if they did release a new wave that wave would need a lot of ships upon release. A big influx like that would also require a lot of play testing. Something their development team may not want to invest that much effort and time into.

See, this is one of those fallacious arguments I mentioned earlier.

No, the fringe faction wouldn't need more than a regular 4 ship wave to start off with. Nobody is going to expect them to introduce a new faction and have it be totally on par with the other 2 right out of the gate. Release a 4 ship wave to begin with and then make the regular wave release 3 ships, one of each. Then every year or two do another 3-4 ship wave that is all fringe, they'll get caught up eventually. It would require no more development or playtesting than any other 4 ship wave. In fact, it probably would require (slightly) less playtesting, because they wouldn't need to playtest the new pilots against any of the existing rebel or imperial only upgrades.

The release of an additional faction would primarily be a matter of branding, all of the work and money involved is going to be the same either way, its really just a question of whether the fringe faction would increase or decrease sales overall. the only additional work involved might be (MIGHT BE) finding a distinctive mechanical identity for the faction, assuming they don't already have a boatload of ideas (and I would bet they do) sitting in a file that they have already come up with and rejected for not being thematically right for either Rebels or Empire.