I think the biggest reason to make a new faction, as opposed to simply releasing extra ships, is to release a new Starter Set, instead of just expansions.

IE lets say they want a new type of maneuver - maybe a 4 bank, or a U turn, (different than a K, I'm talking a full blown U), lets say they want bounty hunters to have access to this new move - then they'd have to include a special maneuver template in EVERY SINGLE ship expansion.... OR simply release a core starter set for bounty hunter faction - and bam you save a bunch of packaging.

1. The fringe is an integral part of the SWU, and deserves to be represented.

That's highly debatable, there's basically no memorable star ship battles that involves fringe elements that I can think of. None for the movies, and few from the EU. Not enough anyway to really warrant a 3rd faction in this game. If this were a RPG or something then yes. But the fringe element is just that, fringe, and had little effect on the Galactic Civil War.

2. There is demand for them and FFG could make money on that demand.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I don't think any of us should be trying to convince FFG to take a chance when we don't have any real stake in it. If they make a 3rd faction and it bombs we're not out anything really.

I highly doubt that any ships put out for a 3rd faction would sell better then more ships for the existing factions. So this really isn't a really good point. Perhaps if the sale of existing ships started to slide then a 3rd faction could be a shot in the arm. But until then, you're really looking at best this being a zero sum game.

I honestly think that ship has already sailed.

Almost, but not quite yet IMO. Plus, if they had somewhere they could release those types of ships, then going forward the 2 main factions would only get appropriate releases and the dilution that has already occurred would slowly reverse.

At this point you'd almost have to either remove those ships from the existing factions... Or else put out some sort of fringe version of them, even if it was just the pilots themselves.

As far as I know, the intent of everyone who has been advocating FFG releasing the Fringer faction has wanted/expected that the half dozen already existing ships that make sense for it would get new pilots and paintjobs for it.

However, all this is really very academic. As I and others on both sides have stated several times now, it really doesn't look like FFG have any intention or desire to release the fringe faction so it doesn't really matter.

Perhaps it would be a good fan project? Combine the Firespray, yt-1300, yt-2400, HWK, Z-95, Y-Wing and a few other ships into a fan made faction, with new pilots and such.

Oh, and for the argument that the BHs worked for the Empire in the movies, yeah, Vader offered a 1-time reward for capturing the Falcon, but the only 2 bounty hunters who were even named in the films, Boba and Greedo, were both apparently on full time retainer to Jabba.

In a game like this, faction isn't really the same thing as a political entity. You don't need to have a force the size of the Rebellion, for example. Compared to the Empire, the Rebels were a rag tag band. At the Battle of Endor, they though pretty much the whole fleet at the Imperial forces and were pretty seriously out gunned.

If we had a fleet based game, composed of say 3-5 ISD's and the escorts, then yeah the Pirates wouldn't make much sense here. But in a game made up of 4-6 fighters it's small enough that they'd fit.

I agree with this post. This is a dogfighting skirmish game we're playing, not a galaxy-wide war to decide the fate of the galaxy. The Rebels weren't the only thorns in the Empire's side, and the Empire wasn't the only threat that the Rebels faced. They were just the two most prominent parties.

FFG is already drawing heavily from the Star Wars Expanded Universe in recent waves. The HWK, the TIE Defender and TIE Phantom, the E-Wing, the Decimator - none of these ships featured in the films, and not all Star Wars players will be familiar with them. The fill niches in the existing factions, however (some more than others) and even the most cynical X-Wing player should be able to see that they only add to the game, not detract from it.

I do not see any harm whatsoever in FFG drawing even further from the Extended Universe in order to give us the option of fielding forces not aligned with either the Rebellion or the Empire.

Perhaps it would be a good fan project? Combine the Firespray, yt-1300, yt-2400, HWK, Z-95, Y-Wing and a few other ships into a fan made faction, with new pilots and such.

That has actually already happened. The models are available as well, and selling. Which should go some way to suggest there's a real demand there that FFG can potentially capitalise on.

Perhaps it would be a good fan project? Combine the Firespray, yt-1300, yt-2400, HWK, Z-95, Y-Wing and a few other ships into a fan made faction, with new pilots and such.

That has actually already happened. The models are available as well, and selling. Which should go some way to suggest there's a real demand there that FFG can potentially capitalise on.

I do not see any harm whatsoever in FFG drawing even further from the Extended Universe in order to give us the option of fielding forces not aligned with either the Rebellion or the Empire.

There's been plenty of reasons listed why this may be a bad idea. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean they're not valid reasons to consider.

But more to the point, "it can't hurt" is almost never a good reason to do something.

They already are capitalizing on it, and thus there's no business need for a third faction.

The fact that a proportion of FFG's player base are going to a third party for models and creating alternate rules to field them says otherwise.

There's been plenty of reasons listed why this may be a bad idea. Just because you don't agree with them, doesn't mean they're not valid reasons to consider.

But more to the point, "it can't hurt" is almost never a good reason to do something.

...just like a dislike or fear of change and a refusal to see the potential benefits is rarely a good reason to not do something.

...just like a dislike or fear of change and a refusal to see the potential benefits is rarely a good reason to not do something.

Sure, but that just means the status quo is the preferred state. Unless someone can come up with a better reason for a 3rd faction then "Because we want them, and it won't hurt anything." Then I see no reason for FFG to make them. It's not a fear of change, it's a lack of clear benefits to cover the cost of making the change.

The reason to make a 3rd faction is because it would both improve the game, and FFG's bottom line. I have yet to see any compelling argument that a 3rd faction would really do either thing.

They already are capitalizing on it, and thus there's no business need for a third faction.

The fact that a proportion of FFG's player base are going to a third party for models and creating alternate rules to field them says otherwise.

There's a proportion of players that dremels their Falcons and installs LEDs. However, it's a very small proportion that doesn't warrant FFG to produce one after that small demand. Can you prove there's such sufficient demand that the company should change their game design and adopt a new faction?

Yeah a third faction!!! I want Ewoks, or perhaps Wompas!!! I know I know....SPACE SLUGS!!!!

ERRR no thanks, I dislike the idea of a third party, I love clone wars ships but I dont like the different timeline ships battling.

Now if I have to answer about a third faction, i would refer the yuhzan von (or whatever is written like), as actually many of the ships in the civil war still serve in the yuhzan war.

Can you prove there's such sufficient demand that the company should change their game design and adopt a new faction?

Yeah the fact that some people buy stuff from Shapways is hardly proof that there's a huge demand for them. By that logic, then most 40k players are completely fine with spending $25-100 per model because that's how much Forgeworld charges.

Sure, but that just means the status quo is the preferred state. Unless someone can come up with a better reason for a 3rd faction then "Because we want them, and it won't hurt anything." Then I see no reason for FFG to make them. It's not a fear of change, it's a lack of clear benefits to cover the cost of making the change.

The reason to make a 3rd faction is because it would both improve the game, and FFG's bottom line. I have yet to see any compelling argument that a 3rd faction would really do either thing.

OK, so consider FFG's current release schedule, how many ships the current two factions have, and how long FFG can keep up that status quo.

As pointed out above, FFG have already drawn heavily on the Expanded Universe to fill out the two current factions. How many more identifiable Imperial and Rebel ships are left that they could realistically produce for the game as it stands?

I'd argue that the Imperials have more than the Rebels. Skipray, XG-1, TIE Droid, TIE Avenger, Missile Boat... yeah, OK. The Rebels? K-Wing? T-Wing?

Where do FFG go from there?

They've already started moving in a different direction with the release of Epic scale ships. The Tantive IV and Rebel Transport both moved the game away from that status quo you mentioned, and it's unlikely they'll be the last expansions to do so.

Where else could they go? Players have speculated against a fleet-scale capital ship spin-off with Star Destroyers and cruisers and possibly a galactic conquest narrative-campaign mechanic - that would be a big departure. The could move into prequel territory (ha). FFG could give us the oft requested ground attack spin off, with Imperial walkers, speeders and static defenses, which would most probably be totally incompatible with the current format. They could supplement the existing game with obstacles, objective and accessory packs. They could give us X-Wing: Second Edition.

Or they could dig back into the Expanded Universe and give us more ships to play with in the current format; just not necessarily Imperial ships and not necessarily Rebel ships. That to me at least would seem like the least risky strategy,and the least likely to affect the current status quo.

Episodes VII-IX. Eventually the game will reach its zenith. We will have to accept that.

how many ships the current two factions have, and how long FFG can keep up that status quo.

A 3rd faction isn't needed to release more ships, that is pretty well established right now, because the fringe ships can quite easily be put into the Rebel side, like the Z-95.

The Tantive IV and Rebel Transport both moved the game away from that status quo you mentioned, and it's unlikely they'll be the last expansions to do so.

Two highly iconic ships from the movies is hardly evidence of them considering or needing a 3rd faction.

Can you prove there's such sufficient demand that the company should change their game design and adopt a new faction?

Yeah the fact that some people buy stuff from Shapways is hardly proof that there's a huge demand for them. By that logic, then most 40k players are completely fine with spending $25-100 per model because that's how much Forgeworld charges.

I would argue that people ARE INDEED fine with spending $100 per model, if they are in fact, paying $100 for the model. If they weren't ok with paying it, then they wouldn't pay it. In fact, that is precisely the reason WHY those models are priced where they are - because the market supports that price.

Theres one thing that worries me. I mean there are a LOT of possibilities in terms of ships number, and that not counting the epics ones, I don´t think theyll run out of ships in a looong time, BUUUUT at some point theyll start repeating the values of each ship

Perhaps it would be a good fan project? Combine the Firespray, yt-1300, yt-2400, HWK, Z-95, Y-Wing and a few other ships into a fan made faction, with new pilots and such.

That has actually already happened. The models are available as well, and selling. Which should go some way to suggest there's a real demand there that FFG can potentially capitalise on.

They already are capitalizing on, and thus there's no business need for a third faction.

Um, I think you're assuming the evidence fits your conclusion. Either that or I misunderstand you.

I'm not particularly interested in buying much of any of the 3d printer available stuff - especially what I've seen of the stuff that's out there.

Now, maybe I should clarify my position. I'm not in favor of a really crappy 3rd faction. (So, maybe I should be careful what I wish for.) I don't feel that the Star Viper has a really starwarsy feel to it. The Rihkxyrk , on the other hand, does have potential. It seems that TRamsey has made some miniatures for them.

Also, the work done on the link that FTS Gecko provided is pretty good for fan-brew material, even if I scratch my head at some of the inclusions. That said, I might just use some of this in my campaign, should I feel the need to. How long ago was it created, given that it includes some Wave 4 stuff?

I would argue that people ARE INDEED fine with spending $100 per model, if they are in fact, paying $100 for the model.

You missed a key word there. Most. Sure some people are fine with paying that kind of money, but most are not. Forgeworld does well, but doesn't sell anywhere near the same amount of models that GW does. Back when I played it was a fairly common topic of debate if FW stuff should even be legal...

I would argue that people ARE INDEED fine with spending $100 per model, if they are in fact, paying $100 for the model.

You missed a key word there. Most. Sure some people are fine with paying that kind of money, but most are not. Forgeworld does well, but doesn't sell anywhere near the same amount of models that GW does. Back when I played it was a fairly common topic of debate if FW stuff should even be legal...

Right, but that may be because people can't generally include it in the game because of a lack of FFG sanction to do so. If these things were official, that would be a different story.

Yeah the fact that some people buy stuff from Shapways is hardly proof that there's a huge demand for them. By that logic, then most 40k players are completely fine with spending $25-100 per model because that's how much Forgeworld charges.

An irrelevant point, as we're not discussing price here.

I think by looking at the HUGE ships and their custom Maneuver Template, you notice that FFG now has to release this Maneuver template with every Huge ship they ever want to make - because the only requirement to play an expansion, is that you own a Core Set - which contains all the components you need to play the game. They cannot release an Imperial Huge Ship with no maneuver template, because they cannot assume that you have another huge ship already. They could have instead released a "Huge Ship Core Set", which would essentially be a starter box for epic play - and would include energy tokens, the maneuver template, your range 5 ruler, etc, and then they wouldn't have the requirement to sell those components WITH every huge ship, but it's not a big deal because the packaging for huge ships is so big that it easily allows for those pieces to be included.

Small ships, on the other hand, are another story. Lets assume FFG wants to toy around with a new mechanic that would require more new pieces. They don't want to have to include new mandatory pieces in every small ship, because that would both increase their packaging and manufacturing costs, as well as increase the cost to the customer. A new faction COULD be a way of adding a new mechanic, and new components, while keeping costs down.

Lets assume that they are adding a new faction and for purposes of simplicity, lets call them "Space Ninjas". Lets say that the Space Ninja faction have highly maneuverable ships, weak firepower, and rely more-so on boarding parties and close quarters fighting than on traditional dogfighting. To enable this idea perfectly, FFG might decide that they need to add some new parts to the game, but they don't want to include them with EVERY ship that uses them, so instead they release a "Space Ninja Core Set" - a primer for anyone who wishes to play the Space Ninja faction. It has all the rules, any custom templates, tokens, etc.

Lets say it includes:

Special evade dice that have a Double Evade in place of one of it's blank spaces. It is Teal instead of Green, and is used exclusively by the Space Ninjas. This is to showcase how agile they are, making their evade dice potentially better than attack dice.

A Special Damage Deck that has cards that can apply to the new Space Ninja tactics.

A 4 Bank turn template, as well as a C turn, which is basically a semi-circle.

A "Clamp" token, which locks on to another ship's base and is used when "boarding" a large ship, or when "Shredding" a small ship.

A special range-2 finder, since many Space Ninja ships can only shoot up to range 2 (Limited weaponry, remember?).

They could do things like this for ANY new faction they wanted to release, (assuming that a new faction turns out to be successful).

If they do end up releasing new factions however, I would hope that EVERY upgrade card that comes with them is restricted to to that faction alone. Otherwise you kinda force a player who sticks to one faction - to buy EVERYTHING.

Blah,

It seems like the tone of the debate has withered again.

Just like playing a game of X-Wing, I'm only interested in playing/debating if it's a friendly affair.

A 3rd faction isn't needed to release more ships, that is pretty well established right now, because the fringe ships can quite easily be put into the Rebel side, like the Z-95.

So you're saying that if FFG decided to release models for the R-41 Starchaser, Cloakshape Fighter, Preybird, Authority IRD, Razor Fighter, Toscan Fighter, Pinook Fighter, Supa Fighter, Planetary Fighter, Pursuer Class Enforcemwent Ship and Sorosuub Luxury Yacht you'd be fine with it so long as they were all released as Rebel only ships?

You're not the only one scratching your head at some of the inclusions;and that's the problem of fan made material, it will always be fundamentally inferior to official rules...

Right, but that may be because people can't generally include it in the game because of a lack of FFG sanction to do so. If these things were official, that would be a different story.

...which would also allow you freedom to use them not only in friendly games, but in tournament play.

There's dozens of Extended Universe ships I'd love to see represented in this game,but officially represented.