Was there a debate about huge before they were announced. If so, did you object to huge ships then?If so, could it not easily be that your fears for a third faction are similarly overblown?

I've been here for some time, but only for about a year or so for X-Wing. In that time I honestly don't remember seeing any debates on if there should be Huge ships or not. Mostly I think because FFG had said at one point they weren't going to do them, so there was nothing to debate. The announcement of the CR-90 and GR-75 came as a bit of a shock.Myself I wouldn't of been against them, not if it was known that they'd be part of the Epic Rules set, because that means they don't effect the base game. I did think having all those X-Wing pilots in the Transport was a wise business choice but not a super player friendly one. I can see why some would be unhappy with having to spend $40 to $60 for a alt paint X-Wing, some pilots and other upgrades.I'm not even really dead set against a 3rd faction X-Wing, I just don't see it having much value. At least not enough value to make it worth FFG's time to put one out.IMO a 3rd faction for the sake of it, is a bit like adding 10 levels to the cap in a MMO. They're doing it not because it makes the game better, but because that's what everyone else does.If someone can list things a 3rd faction offers, that is a true improvement to the game, that more ships for the existing factions don't, then I'd like to hear it. But so far the only two things I've heard are...1) It would stop the game from becoming stagnant... Which is a huge assumption, and not even all that logically sound.2) Would offer a faction that plays differently then the existing two. Which is far to vague to be really useful as an argument. Especially given how blurred the differences between the two factions are becoming.

Adding another option fits the world as many of us see it. Yes, the rebellion against the empire is a big deal. But the Star Wars Universe is sooooo much bigger than that. We see Pirates and smugglers and bounty hunters all over the place. There are independant planets. Rim planets. Corellian Security people. Etc... This game shoehorns all of that into two sides right now. And its frustrating. The desire to play as independant operators and mercenaries is strong in amny. Most of the Bounty Hunters really shouldn't be flying with a wing of ties. That doesn't even start on the pirates. All things considered, some more options would be great. Beyond that, it offers ships that neither side should have but could work with. Uglies would be hilarious. Etc....

One nice thing about a third faction would be if they came out for rules for 3-way games also. I know I play with my two sons a lot, and we would love to have a balanced way to have 3-person dogfights. Having a third faction would also make that more thematically interesting, since each could play a different faction, rather than having 2 Rebels or 2 Imperials.

One nice thing about a third faction would be if they came out for rules for 3-way games also. I know I play with my two sons a lot, and we would love to have a balanced way to have 3-person dogfights. Having a third faction would also make that more thematically interesting, since each could play a different faction, rather than having 2 Rebels or 2 Imperials.

I don't think it's that simple. The issues with three-way scenarios have little to do with factions, and nearly everything to do with the inherent difficulties in the format.

I don't think it's that simple.

Yeah a 3rd faction isn't going to make a 3 way battle any more playable then it already is. It might make it more thematic, but it does nothing to really address the mechanics involved.

What are the problems for a combat-a-trois in the RAW?

One nice thing about a third faction would be if they came out for rules for 3-way games also. I know I play with my two sons a lot, and we would love to have a balanced way to have 3-person dogfights. Having a third faction would also make that more thematically interesting, since each could play a different faction, rather than having 2 Rebels or 2 Imperials.

Gets pretty one sided.

One player moves very slow while the other two fight it out.

Then the fresh player comes in and has a fully rested squad against two squads who are usually hurting.

Wasn't the most fun and we tried it twice. In both games the slow player won

And just to add my two cents.

The argument about bounty hunters flying with the empire.

I really don't know if we will see other Bh ships fly with the empire, but in the movies they were hired by the empire as we see IG-88, Bossk, and Boba Fett being hired by vader in The Empire Strikes Back.

So since this is the Era that ffg is focusing on, I don't see it a problem having those BH ships sided with the empire.

Unless there is a deleted scene I'm unaware of that shows them working along side the rebellion that I'm unaware of.

One nice thing about a third faction would be if they came out for rules for 3-way games also. I know I play with my two sons a lot, and we would love to have a balanced way to have 3-person dogfights. Having a third faction would also make that more thematically interesting, since each could play a different faction, rather than having 2 Rebels or 2 Imperials.

We've done three way games in the past.

Gets pretty one sided.

One player moves very slow while the other two fight it out.

Then the fresh player comes in and has a fully tested squad against two squads who are usually hurting.

Wasn't the most fun we tried it twice.

And just to add my two cents.

The argument about bounty hunters flying with the empire.

I really don't know if we will see other Bh ships fly with the empire, but in the movies they were hired by the empire as we see IG-88, Bossk, and Boba Fett being hired by vader.

So since this is the Era that ffg is focusing on, I don't see it a problem having those BH ships sided with the empire.

Unless there is a deleted scene in unaware of that shows them working along side the rebellion that I'm unaware of.

I understand all that. I have also played straight 3 way games and the result is that the last person who enters combat wins. That's why I said they would have to come out with new Rules or scenarios to make 3-way play balanced. But having a 3rd Faction will make that THEMATICALLY more interesting, which was my main point.

What are the problems for a combat-a-trois in the RAW?

The problem with 3-way games isn't the game rules, it's an inherent issue with 3 sided games in general. 3-player games usually come down to "whoever attacks last, wins". In a 3 sided game what generally happens is 2 players will duke it out while the third player kinda waits on the sidelines. By the time the first 2 players to attack have finished, either by one of them getting eliminated, or calling a truce, they are both so weak that the third player can easily wipe out whatever is left.

There are, of course, ways around the problem, but most of them are not really suitable for a war game. The best options I have seen for X-Wing are

1 - to do a rock/paper/scissor type game where player A scores points for destroying Player B's ships, B goes after C and C goes after A

2 - do a regular free for all, but as a timed game and have everyone's ships respawn. That way someone who gets attacked early doesn't get put at an insurmountable disadvantage.

Most of the other options are to make victory conditions entirely separate from actually attacking the enemy, controlling objectives, race to accumulate a resource, etc... but the problem with those is they frequently discourage interaction among the different sides.

Doesnt matter

Has nothing to do with contractors of today and working /flying combat mission

Were talking about a movie.

A movie where we see the BH working for the empire.

If you want to nit pick every single detail, go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that from ESB perspective that they are working with the empire

In the movie there are two sides

The good and bad

The BH are hired by the bad guys to work for them.

This is the time period that the game we play is also focused on.

So the BH are also considered villainous.

Sure they are just guns for hire, and technically have no real side, but I'm looking at this just from the movie perspective.

In the movies they are working with the empire, which makes them the villains. Going against the rebellion who are considered the good guys.

So for argument sake this is why we see the Firespray fly with the empire.

And if they release the other BH we will likely see them sided with the empire.

I know ffg takes out of the EU, but it seems to me and from what I've read they really focus on the times and events from the movies.

Like I said

Two sides

Good / Evil

BH though neither in the movies are sided on the evil side as they are hired by them.

I really don't think we are going to see a third faction, so if you want to see the other BH they have to pick a side.

Since in the movies we only see them sided with the empire this makes the most sense.

I know the movies extremely well, but I never read any of the books. Only EU things I know are comics and the games, but for the most part most can relate to the movies,

Yout start putting Boba fett flying with the rebels, some maybe confused

"Why is he with the rebels. Didn't he work with vader and capture Han solo? "

Adding another option fits the world as many of us see it. Yes, the rebellion against the empire is a big deal. But the Star Wars Universe is sooooo much bigger than that. We see Pirates and smugglers and bounty hunters all over the place.

I'm not well versed in the EU. Were the pirates, smugglers, and bounty hunters a singular, unified force like the Empire and Rebels?

Were the pirates, smugglers, and bounty hunters a singular, unified force like the Empire and Rebels?

No they weren't. There are some large groups, like the Black Suns. But none could really be much of a match for the Rebellion let alone the Empire. But considering that a typical game in X-wing is 4-6 ships, there would be many pirate forces that could be a match for that. Even the largest game is a CR-90 and some escorts, which again would be a suitable target for a pirate raid.

Were the pirates, smugglers, and bounty hunters a singular, unified force like the Empire and Rebels?

No they weren't. There are some large groups, like the Black Suns. But none could really be much of a match for the Rebellion let alone the Empire. But considering that a typical game in X-wing is 4-6 ships, there would be many pirate forces that could be a match for that. Even the largest game is a CR-90 and some escorts, which again would be a suitable target for a pirate raid.

Like Vanor said, they very much fit the point scale of the game. Booster Terrik had a Star Destroyer and he wasn't the only pirate to do so.

. Even the largest game is a CR-90 and some escorts, which again would be a suitable target for a pirate raid.

Which would be a TOTALLY cool scenario. A corvette and/or a couple transports and escorts being attacked by a rag tag, makeshift force of fringer ships.

So far, the only even remotely legitimate argument I have seen against a third faction has been the question of what it adds mechanically to the game. FFG would need to come up with a mechanical identity for it that works. I don't know what that might be, but then again I can't really articulate what significant mechanical differences there are between the 2 current faction. It just seems to be a whole bunch of little, small differences not any significant, faction wide mechanical identities.

Were the pirates, smugglers, and bounty hunters a singular, unified force like the Empire and Rebels?

No they weren't. There are some large groups, like the Black Suns. But none could really be much of a match for the Rebellion let alone the Empire. But considering that a typical game in X-wing is 4-6 ships, there would be many pirate forces that could be a match for that. Even the largest game is a CR-90 and some escorts, which again would be a suitable target for a pirate raid.

Sure, but I wouldn't call that a faction then if they weren't a unified force.

Were the pirates, smugglers, and bounty hunters a singular, unified force like the Empire and Rebels?

No they weren't. There are some large groups, like the Black Suns. But none could really be much of a match for the Rebellion let alone the Empire. But considering that a typical game in X-wing is 4-6 ships, there would be many pirate forces that could be a match for that. Even the largest game is a CR-90 and some escorts, which again would be a suitable target for a pirate raid.

Sure, but I wouldn't call that a faction then if they weren't a unified force.

The complication that I was thinking about is a little complicated to conceive of after-the-fact.

I was asking that - assuming people were debating huge ships, and it hadn't been known that FFG would place a firewall between the huge ships and tournament play, if people were arguing for against huge ships based on the 'don't-rock-the-boat' arguments and the all-change-is-kewl arguments. But it's a moot point, if huge ships were entirely unanticipated.

So, forget I asked the question.

Sure, but I wouldn't call that a faction then if they weren't a unified force.

In a game like this, faction isn't really the same thing as a political entity. You don't need to have a force the size of the Rebellion, for example. Compared to the Empire, the Rebels were a rag tag band. At the Battle of Endor, they though pretty much the whole fleet at the Imperial forces and were pretty seriously out gunned.

If we had a fleet based game, composed of say 3-5 ISD's and the escorts, then yeah the Pirates wouldn't make much sense here. But in a game made up of 4-6 fighters it's small enough that they'd fit.

Alright, I have been thinking about it a little more and I realized that a fringer faction would bring something important to the game. It would bring a counter to the dilution of the 2 main factions.

There are A LOT of bounty hunter/smuggler/pirate ships in the universe that would be very popular, and that would probably sell very well, but if FFG brings them out as part of the existing factions there is a risk that those factions would start to loose their identity in the stew of random fringe ships. This would be especially problematic for the empire since they are supposed to be big, monolithic, faceless, lacking in diversity and focused on TIE variants, but it is true of the rebels as well. So that, along with a few mechanical quirks would do the trick I suspect.

Thinking about it, here are a couple ways I thought of that a fringe faction could be unique

Greater emphasis on large ships. Yeah, they used Y's and Headhunters, but the primary ship for most fringers would be a large ship

Most fringer ships are heavily modified, so give them crappy primary attacks and assorted upgrades and pilot abilities to make them focus on secondary weapons

I, personally, would love to see fringer ships that can take multiple modifications by default, but just having lots of upgrade icons and reasons to use them would be OK.

Pilot abilities or rules that encouraged taking different kinds of ships, sort of an anti-swarm/anti-spam thing, so that their squads look makeshift.

So, forget I asked the question.

It's a good question if for nothing else then looking at the kneejerk reaction of if something new is good or bad. For some people change is almost always bad and something to be avoided. For some change is almost always good and something to be done for it's own sake.

IMO neither view is correct. Change isn't always bad, sometimes it's very good, but it's seldom good for it's own sake.

In this case, the Epic rules work quite well, because of the firewall you mention. But that wouldn't be there for a fringe faction, so they'll have an impact on pretty much every part of the game. That means IMO at least, if they actually improve the game in some meaningful way, then it may be a good idea. But if the only reason to include them is "because pirates are kewl!" then no it's not worth it.

So far however I've yet to see a really good idea of what they'd actually offer as a 3rd faction other then this vague "they'd be different".

It would bring a counter to the dilution of the 2 main factions.

I honestly think that ship has already sailed.

Between the Firespray, YT-1300, 2400 and Z-95, the main fringe ships are already there. Plus between things like the Z-95, Defender and Phantom, there's a lot less distinction between the factions now then there was.

At this point you'd almost have to either remove those ships from the existing factions... Or else put out some sort of fringe version of them, even if it was just the pilots themselves.

Hmmm, an interestingly edited post. I'm going to try to deal with the dominant themes I see here.

Doesnt matter
Has nothing to do with contractors of today and working /flying combat mission
Were talking about a movie.
A movie where we see the BH working for the empire.
If you want to nit pick every single detail, go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that from ESB perspective that they are working with the empire

In the movie there are two sides
The good and bad

The BH are hired by the bad guys to work for them.

This is the time period that the game we play is also focused on.

So the BH are also considered villainous.

Sure they are just guns for hire, and technically have no real side, but I'm looking at this just from the movie perspective.

In the movies they are working with the empire, which makes them the villains. Going against the rebellion who are considered the good guys.

So for argument sake this is why we see the Firespray fly with the empire.
And if they release the other BH we will likely see them sided with the empire.

I know ffg takes out of the EU, but it seems to me and from what I've read they really focus on the times and events from the movies.

Like I said
Two sides
Good / Evil

BH though neither in the movies are sided on the evil side as they are hired by them.

I really don't think we are going to see a third faction, so if you want to see the other BH they have to pick a side.

Since in the movies we only see them sided with the empire this makes the most sense.

I know the movies extremely well, but I never read any of the books. Only EU things I know are comics and the games, but for the most part most can relate to the movies,
Yout start putting Boba fett flying with the rebels, some maybe confused
"Why is he with the rebels. Didn't he work with vader and capture Han solo? "

"In the movie there are two sides"

Yes there are. But Star Wars is about more than the movies. If you disagree, I assume that you're not using many of the ships they came out with because you refuse to acknowledge stuff from outside the movies. Even so, while not depicted as a military force, the movies do acknowledge and portray SWU society beyond just Empire and the rebellion.

"This is the time period that the game we play is also focused on."

...E-Wing...

BH, BH, BH, etc.

I don't think the argument for a third faction is as a bounty hunter faction. Bounty hunters may be included, but they're not the totality.

"I know the movies extremely well, but I never read any of the books. Only EU things I know are comics and the games, but for the most part most can relate to the movies"

But as you acknowledge, there's plenty of stuff from outside the movies, so that's not an argument for/against what FFG might do.

So, forget I asked the question.

It's a good question if for nothing else then looking at the kneejerk reaction of if something new is good or bad. For some people change is almost always bad and something to be avoided. For some change is almost always good and something to be done for it's own sake.IMO neither view is correct. Change isn't always bad, sometimes it's very good, but it's seldom good for it's own sake.In this case, the Epic rules work quite well, because of the firewall you mention. But that wouldn't be there for a fringe faction, so they'll have an impact on pretty much every part of the game. That means IMO at least, if they actually improve the game in some meaningful way, then it may be a good idea. But if the only reason to include them is "because pirates are kewl!" then no it's not worth it.So far however I've yet to see a really good idea of what they'd actually offer as a 3rd faction other then this vague "they'd be different".

That is largely because the different depends on how FFG goes about it. On one hand they allow for more ships that don't fit the primary faction. On another they help the RP junkies. On another level they offer space for a collection of cheaper shoddier craft, giving Star Wars the scrap heap feel this game is currently missing. But it's impossible to say what they offer beypnd different because much of the change will be in the emotional aspect of the game. It's an option for players that like to feel unaligned. For players that don't like the philosophies of rebels or imperials. Star Wars has always had Criminal Scum. But we can't play as them. Not yet.

So, forget I asked the question.

It's a good question if for nothing else then looking at the kneejerk reaction of if something new is good or bad. For some people change is almost always bad and something to be avoided. For some change is almost always good and something to be done for it's own sake.

That's certainly what I was getting at, but since it's a counterfactual, it doesn't really provide a fair test. But, given all the star Destroyers debate, I'm surprised that nobody made the case for the smaller capital ships, and that there was no debate about that, with the usual suspects typing "no", clicking 'Post' and moving on to troll another thread.

In this case, the Epic rules work quite well, because of the firewall you mention. But that wouldn't be there for a fringe faction, so they'll have an impact on pretty much every part of the game. That means IMO at least, if they actually improve the game in some meaningful way, then it may be a good idea.

But they wouldn't need an entire new ruleset, or even substantial changes of the rules. They'd be just differently colored dials and some new ships that aren't plumbed from the unlikely corners of the EU like the Defender, Phantom and the E-Wing. Alright, maybe that's a statement too far. They'd probably be from just-as-unlikely corners of the EU as the Defender, Phantom and the E-Wing, but just not with technology that is improbable or from 5 years after the battle of Endor.

But I suppose it hinges on what you consider 'improving the game'. If it's just mechanics, then you have to ask that question of any new expansion. What is your opinion on the Phantom in that regard?

So far however I've yet to see a really good idea of what they'd actually offer as a 3rd faction other then this vague "they'd be different".

Okay - how about these:

1. The fringe is an integral part of the SWU, and deserves to be represented.

2. There is demand for them and FFG could make money on that demand.

Alright, I have been thinking about it a little more and I realized that a fringer faction would bring something important to the game. It would bring a counter to the dilution of the 2 main factions.

There are A LOT of bounty hunter/smuggler/pirate ships in the universe that would be very popular, and that would probably sell very well, but if FFG brings them out as part of the existing factions there is a risk that those factions would start to loose their identity in the stew of random fringe ships. This would be especially problematic for the empire since they are supposed to be big, monolithic, faceless, lacking in diversity and focused on TIE variants, but it is true of the rebels as well. So that, along with a few mechanical quirks would do the trick I suspect.

Thinking about it, here are a couple ways I thought of that a fringe faction could be unique

Greater emphasis on large ships. Yeah, they used Y's and Headhunters, but the primary ship for most fringers would be a large ship

Most fringer ships are heavily modified, so give them crappy primary attacks and assorted upgrades and pilot abilities to make them focus on secondary weapons

I, personally, would love to see fringer ships that can take multiple modifications by default, but just having lots of upgrade icons and reasons to use them would be OK.

Pilot abilities or rules that encouraged taking different kinds of ships, sort of an anti-swarm/anti-spam thing, so that their squads look makeshift.