People are missing my point. I'm not saying it's game-breakingly overpowered. I'm saying it defeats 90% of the point of the game in my opinion.

After seeing the new stuff for Wave 5, I thought a lot of it was really cool. Finally getting a token-passer for the Imperials is good, and Lando is going to be very awesome on both the YT-1300 and 2400. But then I happened to see Dash Rendar… and in my head I kinda lost it a little…

Your post kind of confuses me, because it's clear that you're upset but after reading it I'm still not actually sure what you're upset about.

I think my attitude is more of a "burned out".

I disagree and this is entirely on speculation...

But I think the YT-2400 w/ Dash is going to be a very tricky ship to fly. As of what we know, you can either run it with standard weaponry and have 2 attack dice, or you can opt for the HLC + Outrider combo. The latter combo is going to be really hard to run effectively, especially against anything that's fast, and that's most of the Imperial ships. You are not going to be able to formation fly and keep any type of synergy going with other ships. You will constantly have to figure out where to go to stay at range. Asteroids will still be a pain even with Dash as you don't want to land on them and have to barrel roll out and not be able to focus/TL. You will likely have to BR a lot to stay at range, so your action economy is going to suffer. 4/2/5/5 is a very sexy stat line, but its a half the cost of your squad. Also, with no range 1 attack...

Now if you run Dash w/o a cannon and Outrider, he's not really that scary and you are going to have to play the ship a lot differently. Two attack dice does not scare PTL Squints that are focus/evaded. You are going to have to get within range 1 and BR a lot to stay out of arc. This isn't the Falcon, it can't just cruise around and shoot anywhere it wants to, while flying through rocks. Personally I think it doesn't look all that great. I rather run a Falcon at 48 points...

After seeing the new stuff for Wave 5, I thought a lot of it was really cool. Finally getting a token-passer for the Imperials is good, and Lando is going to be very awesome on both the YT-1300 and 2400. But then I happened to see Dash Rendar… and in my head I kinda lost it a little…

Your post kind of confuses me, because it's clear that you're upset but after reading it I'm still not actually sure what you're upset about.

I think my attitude is more of a "burned out".

That was kind of my initial reaction when I saw the YT-2400 ship, too--but Lagomorphia has a post around here somewhere* where he eloquently expresses the position I came around to. Basically the YT-2400 is going to be drastically different from the Falcon because either it's a 2-Attack turret that wants you to get close or a 4-Attack turret with a doughnut hole. You have the barrel roll option generally, and more specifically the extra options opened up by Dash, but you may very well need those options in order to make meaningful attacks. It's not going to be the same ho-hum, fly-in-circles-and-keep-shooting play you sometimes see from unimaginative Falcon players.

* EDIT: Here it is.

It's only a single ship, and as Vorpal pointed out it is a high opportunity cost to use your action barrel-rolling off asteroids. It makes it easier for a new player to make a mistake and have it be less crippling for them, yes. To me that is a good thing. For more experienced players- well, surely you shouldn't be constantly crashing into asteroids anyway? It doesn't seem hugely OP to me. Useful, yes, but the special abilities of unique pilots need to be pretty useful or it's better to just take generics generally.

Honestly, it's a little bit dangerous in a tournament setting. If you misjudge a Barrel Roll and you wind up with a corner on an Asteroid, your sunk. And since you will be able to do the Barrel Roll, you can't just switch sides after you declare it.

Yes but you can barrel roll off the asteroid.

But if you barrel roll off the asteroid, you just gave up your action - and may as well have "hit the asteroid" and rolled a blank - on a maneuver that would turn you through the asteroid (because, the ship is turret based anyway).

Honestly, it's a little bit dangerous in a tournament setting. If you misjudge a Barrel Roll and you wind up with a corner on an Asteroid, your sunk. And since you will be able to do the Barrel Roll, you can't just switch sides after you declare it.

You cannot Boost or Barrel Roll onto obstacles, so if you are unable to complete the action you can in fact just switch side. Or do something completely different. If we want to get technical I would say the Outrider will always be able to Barrel roll either in front of or behind an asteroid because it's base is so large and can slide the BR. Still Barrel Roll and Boost are safe from asteroid problems.

People are missing my point. I'm not saying it's game-breakingly overpowered. I'm saying it defeats 90% of the point of the game in my opinion.

Opinions: everybody has one

Honestly, it's a little bit dangerous in a tournament setting. If you misjudge a Barrel Roll and you wind up with a corner on an Asteroid, your sunk. And since you will be able to do the Barrel Roll, you can't just switch sides after you declare it.

You cannot Boost or Barrel Roll onto obstacles, so if you are unable to complete the action you can in fact just switch side. Or do something completely different. If we want to get technical I would say the Outrider will always be able to Barrel roll either in front of or behind an asteroid because it's base is so large and can slide the BR. Still Barrel Roll and Boost are safe from asteroid problems.

I think you need to re-check the card

He ignores obstacles during actions, so he can barrel roll onto one as easily as rolling off. If he declares the BR, I'm pretty sure he has to do it. The size of the base may save him- or possibly not if the debris clouds are in play, depending on how they work.

Honestly, it's a little bit dangerous in a tournament setting. If you misjudge a Barrel Roll and you wind up with a corner on an Asteroid, your sunk. And since you will be able to do the Barrel Roll, you can't just switch sides after you declare it.

You cannot Boost or Barrel Roll onto obstacles, so if you are unable to complete the action you can in fact just switch side. Or do something completely different. If we want to get technical I would say the Outrider will always be able to Barrel roll either in front of or behind an asteroid because it's base is so large and can slide the BR. Still Barrel Roll and Boost are safe from asteroid problems.

I think you need to re-check the card

He ignores obstacles during actions, so he can barrel roll onto one as easily as rolling off. If he declares the BR, I'm pretty sure he has to do it. The size of the base may save him- or possibly not if the debris clouds are in play, depending on how they work.

I would still debate the functionality of him Boosting or Barrel Rolling onto asteroids. Even if it was possible, "You may" elect not to ignore that aspect of collision to ensure you do not complete your Boost or Barrel Roll on the asteroid.

Forget terrain- I'm going to block the 2400 with ships. Collisions still ruin him, and even moreso when the Outrider title has cut out Range 1 (in case you came up short in your estimate blocking him).

Then don't play it.

I know I won't , it stinks to high heaven of space hippies that's how he avoids obsticles ,by dumping massive amounts of granola and and love during the battle.

People are missing my point. I'm not saying it's game-breakingly overpowered. I'm saying it defeats 90% of the point of the game in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but since when did movement around and through obstacles suddenly become 90% of the game? To me the game is about outthinking your opponent, hoping for decent dice rolls and doing some fun repaints to make your squad stand out against the dozens of pre-painted figurines out there (no offence to not painting them: they are painted well usually!).

I don't want to downplay the importance of movement in this game, because of course it's entirely key to winning in many cases, and I also don't want to entirely discount your opinion at all. This is simply an element that allows you to use one pilot in a new and unique way to deal with a problem that large based ships (and probably a reasonably quickly moving large based ship), which is obstacles. Even experienced players of this game will graze by asteroids on occasion with their base, so why not have an option to move in an unpredictable and imaginative manner that lets you have a second chance if you screw up? I'm sure people complained enough about Han Solo, Chewbacca, Boba Fett and Nien Numb when they were first announced, and the latter two of those choices are hardly even used.

I think of X-Wing as a game of options, of making important choices about your ships and how you'll equip them and then how you fly them against a squad that's likely just as full of decisions as your own. Please don't go and say that Dash Rendar is suddenly some kind of silver platter victory that's been handed to the Rebellion, because I could easily say the same about the Defender and the Phantom. It would make me a terrible strawman to do that though, so I won't.

People are missing my point. I'm not saying it's game-breakingly overpowered. I'm saying it defeats 90% of the point of the game in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but since when did movement around and through obstacles suddenly become 90% of the game?

It didn't. But maneuvering is a large part, and planning your arc is another. The turret takes care of one, the ability takes care of the other.

It's more like a HUFFY bike instead of training wheels

Forget terrain- I'm going to block the 2400 with ships. Collisions still ruin him, and even moreso when the Outrider title has cut out Range 1 (in case you came up short in your estimate blocking him).

Here's one list idea:

Dash Rendar w/ Nien, HLC, Outrider, Push the Limit (52)

Chewbacca w/ Han, Lando or other cards that bring him to (48)

Dash plays the lightning to Chewie's thunder.

But really now, FFG? A (rebel exclusive) ship that can move anywhere, fire anywhere, land anywhere, with absolutely no regard for the other half of what makes this game so strategic? Don't have to care where you end up, don't have to care what maneuver you pick, don't even have to suffer if you land smack dab on an asteroid? Just barrel roll off it without even having to take Expert Handling?

Its more than half. What is there to do in this game? Move ships, avoid rocks, aim at your opponent, and destroy them. With the YT-2400, what do you really have to do? Skip steps 1-3 and go straight to destory them. That's basically the entire game gone. All you have to do is just do whatever you want. No need to worry about moving properly. No need to worry about getting your opponent within sight. No need to worry about rocks. Just shoot things.

Pew pew, easy mode for rebels!

But really now, FFG? A (rebel exclusive) ship that can move anywhere, fire anywhere, land anywhere, with absolutely no regard for the other half of what makes this game so strategic? Don't have to care where you end up, don't have to care what maneuver you pick, don't even have to suffer if you land smack dab on an asteroid? Just barrel roll off it without even having to take Expert Handling?

Its more than half. What is there to do in this game? Move ships, avoid rocks, aim at your opponent, and destroy them. With the YT-2400, what do you really have to do? Skip steps 1-3 and go straight to destory them. That's basically the entire game gone. All you have to do is just do whatever you want. No need to worry about moving properly. No need to worry about getting your opponent within sight. No need to worry about rocks. Just shoot things.

Pew pew, easy mode for rebels!

True except they still need to maneuver their ship to avoid getting ganged up on.

But really now, FFG? A (rebel exclusive) ship that can move anywhere, fire anywhere, land anywhere, with absolutely no regard for the other half of what makes this game so strategic? Don't have to care where you end up, don't have to care what maneuver you pick, don't even have to suffer if you land smack dab on an asteroid? Just barrel roll off it without even having to take Expert Handling?

Its more than half. What is there to do in this game? Move ships, avoid rocks, aim at your opponent, and destroy them. With the YT-2400, what do you really have to do? Skip steps 1-3 and go straight to destory them. That's basically the entire game gone. All you have to do is just do whatever you want. No need to worry about moving properly. No need to worry about getting your opponent within sight. No need to worry about rocks. Just shoot things.

Pew pew, easy mode for rebels!

Seriously? An HLC equipped outrider has a MASSIVE donut hole of a blind spot at range 1 all around it, and you think there's "no need to move properly." Or are you talking about a naked 36 point Dash absolutely OBLITERATING EVERYTHING with his mighty 2 attack dice?

Can you not just be happy that imperials will be getting turrets, imp only crew, and token passing that were the subjects of previous complaints? Can you really not go an entire day without scouting for the ONE thing that makes it all SOOO unfair?

Dash is PS 7, which means his barrel roll can be blocked by the majority of ships on the field. If he's trying to fly through asteroids, he can be blocked back onto asteroids and get no shot. Phantoms with VI can jump into range 1 after he moves, chuck 5 dice into his gut, and take NO return fire, etc.

He has a very good pilot ability but very obvious weaknesses. You don't even know what his dial looks like yet. It'll be okay, I promise.

But really now, FFG? A (rebel exclusive) ship that can move anywhere, fire anywhere, land anywhere, with absolutely no regard for the other half of what makes this game so strategic? Don't have to care where you end up, don't have to care what maneuver you pick, don't even have to suffer if you land smack dab on an asteroid? Just barrel roll off it without even having to take Expert Handling?

Its more than half. What is there to do in this game? Move ships, avoid rocks, aim at your opponent, and destroy them. With the YT-2400, what do you really have to do? Skip steps 1-3 and go straight to destory them. That's basically the entire game gone. All you have to do is just do whatever you want. No need to worry about moving properly. No need to worry about getting your opponent within sight. No need to worry about rocks. Just shoot things.

Pew pew, easy mode for rebels!

Seriously? An HLC equipped outrider has a MASSIVE donut hole of a blind spot at range 1 all around it, and you think there's "no need to move properly." Or are you talking about a naked 36 point Dash absolutely OBLITERATING EVERYTHING with his mighty 2 attack dice?

Can you not just be happy that imperials will be getting turrets, imp only crew, and token passing that were the subjects of previous complaints? Can you really not go an entire day without scouting for the ONE thing that makes it all SOOO unfair?

Dash is PS 7, which means his barrel roll can be blocked by the majority of ships on the field. If he's trying to fly through asteroids, he can be blocked back onto asteroids and get no shot. Phantoms with VI can jump into range 1 after he moves, chuck 5 dice into his gut, and take NO return fire, etc.

He has a very good pilot ability but very obvious weaknesses. You don't even know what his dial looks like yet. It'll be okay, I promise.

If you really that bloody worries put Mara Jade on and stress Render so he cant barrel roll off the rocks and that's just an idea off top of my head, before complaining let's see all cards and let people strategize for and against it

People complaining on day one of a preview sound like 1st graders who didn't get to watch cartoons since they didn't finish their chores....just be happy FFG previewed these and even put effort into improving the game

The thing about Dash's ability is, that it really makes him a bad choice, imo. If you are experienced at maneuvering, you won't be needing his ability. I just don't see him making the top tables too often. About the only thing going for him is that he has an Elite Talent and a 7 pilot skill. It really is too bad that he likely won't be the top YT-2400 pick.

The thing about Dash's ability is, that it really makes him a bad choice, imo. If you are experienced at maneuvering, you won't be needing his ability. I just don't see him making the top tables too often. About the only thing going for him is that he has an Elite Talent and a 7 pilot skill. It really is too bad that he likely won't be the top YT-2400 pick.

While I do think Dash will find a spot in competitions, I wholly agree about the YT-2400. Leebo might turn out to be an amazing pilot, maybe even a better Outrider + HLC platform. I just feel that Leebo is going to have some kind of attack bonus.

But really now, FFG? A (rebel exclusive) ship that can move anywhere, fire anywhere, land anywhere, with absolutely no regard for the other half of what makes this game so strategic? Don't have to care where you end up, don't have to care what maneuver you pick, don't even have to suffer if you land smack dab on an asteroid? Just barrel roll off it without even having to take Expert Handling?

Its more than half. What is there to do in this game? Move ships, avoid rocks, aim at your opponent, and destroy them. With the YT-2400, what do you really have to do? Skip steps 1-3 and go straight to destory them. That's basically the entire game gone. All you have to do is just do whatever you want. No need to worry about moving properly. No need to worry about getting your opponent within sight. No need to worry about rocks. Just shoot things.

Pew pew, easy mode for rebels!

I'm with others who don't quite agree. Strategic considerations are a big part of the game as well, and the 2400 adds some very interesting ones, even with Dash. I think you are ignoring the specific builds this would be used in. Try and identify which build you consider easy mode? I don't think you'll find one. Let me explain why.

Firstly, there are two ways this ability can be used: as easy mode, or tactically. Yes, it can be easy mode, allowing people to just ignore asteroids, but honestly, someone flying like that is going to lose. They paid quite a few extra points for an ability they could have developed on their own, and if their opponent can avoid asteroids well they have an instant advantage, because they have that many more points of actually useful firepower. No, this ability only becomes useful and dangerous when it is used tactically. Someone who IS using terrain to their advantage, specifically the fact that their opponent has to deal with it, is going to be MUCH more dangerous with Dash, and that is hardly easy mode. That is adding more interesting nuances to the game.

Secondly, the Outrider turret does NOT act like the Falcon's turret (which I agree is easy mode). A strength 2 turret is totally different than a strength 3 turret, and it's not worth paying for Dashes ability on a strength 2 turret (unless you want to lose). So you have to choose: use it as a standard canon platform, or a canon turret platform, and ALL of these choices are interesting.

The standard canon platform is going to be either an HLC or an Ion. So you have a ship that ignores asteroids, has an extremely powerful front arc, and weak side arcs. Well that is interesting, and neither removes maneuvering from the game. Firing arcs are still extremely important.

The turret platform also has two primary options: Ion Canon and HLC (I think we can safely discount autoblaster). Now Ion turrets are going to require an extremely good pilot to work out. That is an EXPENSIVE ion platform, and has almost NO offensive firepower. Someone using the ion turret platform is going to have to be extremely good at taking advantage of terrain to win. It could work, but it is going to be all about how he uses the rest of his ships and making good use of the opportunities the 2400 ion offers.

The HLC turret is ALSO not easy mode, because of that big ol donut whole. You are actually encouraging your opponents to get at range one, which again is a very interesting change.

Long story short, I highly disagree that the 2400 is easy mode, or that it removes tactics from the game the way the Falcon does. It actually adds numerous interesting twists to the piloting mechanic. Every possible build changes the game up in interesting ways except for the weakest one: Dash with no canon or title. And how is that easy mode? You just spent almost half of your points on a power 2 turret?

No, I think it's going to be a very interesting addition to the game.

What did you expect the imps lost their chief complaint of no turrets so now they need to think of new things to complain about and the newest ships are always prime targets

Oh, turrets are still a problem. The turret complaints were never were so much about the Imperials not having them but more about how they completely nullify the main defense of TIE's (the whole "being really good at staying out of arcs" part). In a way, that problem just got worse, since now Imperial players will be fielding turrets as well.

I just haven't been complaining about turrets much because I'm a tad busy geeking out over more unique Imperial crew and the tons and tons of tactical shenanigans I can use Mara and the Fleet Officer for.

Because by the stars does wave 5 look awesome even if you take out the new flying tank.